Too much sound?!?

R

rudalicious

New member
Hello guys n gals n whoever else.

I have searched far and wide all over the net but to no avail. Its kind of a strange topic. Well I was doing some mixing for a band the other day... a rock band and since im recording onto a PC i try to get my level as high as possible. After tracking before i do anything i normally try to get my levels so they are just below 0. In the red.

Here is where the question is. I have been noticing it is much harder to mix and get things to blend at this level. Maybe there is just a placeebo effect going on here but i feel if i bring my levels down on separate tracks to say -6 to -3 I can make things fit together better. Now is that all in my head or is it acutally becuase im using less headroom? After i bring them down a bit or dont bring them up then once mixed i bring the mix level up to line with no problems.

Is this the way to go about it? Do you guys have methods you use? Do you all just crank each track as high as it will go? Am i going crazy?

any help would.... help

thanks
 
kind of realted....but i like to turn down the master volume or a grouped channels volume to mix with at times. This way you can hear exactly what instruments are too loud in the mix. For example, soloing all the drums, bringing the master fader down and hearing the hi-hat sounding way too loud.....this can help even out a mix i think.
 
:D Yo Ruda of Adur:}

Depends what you are trying to do. For example, you can run a vocal through a compressor and that will help them stand out without clipping, and you will need a decent mic pre.

The same is true with a horn solo or a standout bass line; however, you only have so much "room" in the system and you will have to make choices.

So, it depends on what you're after -- if there are no vocals, then you can go for specific band parts, etc.

Good monitors and patience will get you the mix you want.

Green Hornet :cool: :) :D
 
rudalicious said:
...since im recording onto a PC i try to get my level as high as possible. After tracking before i do anything i normally try to get my levels so they are just below 0. In the red.
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Big mistake -- with digital recording you NEVER want the meters to hit RED. Ever.

Yes - bring your levels down - you still need headroom to work with.
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Big mistake -- with digital recording you NEVER want the meters to hit RED. Ever.

Yes - bring your levels down - you still need headroom to work with.
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thanks for all the replies and blue bear you totally answered my question :)
 
rudalicious said:
since im recording onto a PC i try to get my level as high as possible. After tracking before i do anything i normally try to get my levels so they are just below 0. In the red.
Click to expand...

Digital recording equipment is spec'd to record to a -6db level. Record *everything* at this level regardless of the volume it will be at the final mix. The highhats that were going to be low in the mix, like -12db... record those at -6db, record it all there!

rudalicious said:
Here is where the question is. I have been noticing it is much harder to mix and get things to blend at this level. Maybe there is just a placeebo effect going on here but i feel if i bring my levels down on separate tracks to say -6 to -3 I can make things fit together better. Now is that all in my head or is it acutally becuase im using less headroom? After i bring them down a bit or dont bring them up then once mixed i bring the mix level up to line with no problems.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the wonderful world of digital summing! You are completely overloading the output sum busses and probably experiencing a serious amount of clipping... coupled with the clipping you are probably getting from the recorded media it is no surprise that you are having trouble.
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
Digital recording equipment is spec'd to record to a -6db level. Record *everything* at this level regardless of the volume it will be at the final mix. The highhats that were going to be low in the mix, like -12db... record those at -6db, record it all there!



Welcome to the wonderful world of digital summing! You are completely overloading the output sum busses and probably experiencing a serious amount of clipping... coupled with the clipping you are probably getting from the recorded media it is no surprise that you are having trouble.
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thanks man.... that helps me out a lot also. You guys have completely answered my question :)
 
Rud, a practice i use ALL THE time is to respect the digital/vs analog metering conventions.

As i was an old (not that old LOL) 2" Tape guy I track like I am going down to 2" meaning no higher then -9db (Digital Peak meters reading) Allows me headroom with my faders and everything else. :)

Then when I am mixing I turn up the master output so that when I start mixing I am hitting around -15db (Digital meters) which is about +3 dB (Analog meters) with a nice comfortable lsitening volume for mixing (I mix between 74 and 78dB most times. I am still human and I was a DJ before I got into this side of the biz. :) )

This also allows me (should the client desire) to have the tracks taken and dumped DIRECLTY onto a 2" machine (no amps in between the Audio interface and the 2" Machine.)

Hope that tid bit helps.
 
The thing to remember is that when you are talking decibels and equipment... especially digital vs. analog conveyances... is that "0 db" will not always mean the same thing.

It's a mind trip for new guys, but look into it. 0db on my HD24 means something totally different on my analog A&H mixer.
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
Digital recording equipment is spec'd to record to a -6db level. Record *everything* at this level regardless of the volume it will be at the final mix. The highhats that were going to be low in the mix, like -12db... record those at -6db, record it all there!
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Actually, I respectfully disagree... in a 16-bit world, there's some argument for doing it that way, but with good-quality 24-bit converters, there's simply no need to worry about keeping tracks above -6dBFS....

For myself, my goal when tracking is to record at a level such that the natural balance of the mix is pretty much there when all faders are at 0dB... meaning that hi-hat should definitely NOT be hitting -6dBFS if the snare is...

This practice preserves your headroom, which means no summing headaches at mixdown - and also makes it very easy to throw up a rough mix....
 
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Cloneboy Studio said:
The thing to remember is that when you are talking decibels and equipment... especially digital vs. analog conveyances... is that "0 db" will not always mean the same thing.

It's a mind trip for new guys, but look into it. 0db on my HD24 means something totally different on my analog A&H mixer.
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Absolutely.... totally different scales...

I have an article that goes into more detail on this --> Meters, Signal Level, and Headroom
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Actually, I respectfully disagree... in a 16-bit world, there's some argument for doing it that way, but with good-quality 24-bit converters, there's simply no need to worry about keeping tracks above -6dBFS....
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Actually my goal is to keep stuff somewhere between -9 and -6db at all times to preserve both headroom and keep SNR down.

Blue Bear Sound said:
For myself, my goal when tracking is to record at a level such that the natural balance of the mix is pretty much there when all faders are at 0dB... meaning that hi-hat should definitely NOT be hitting -6dBFS if the snare is...

This practice preserves your headroom, which means no summing headaches at mixdown - and also makes it very easy to throw up a rough mix....
Click to expand...

I agree with that, but I'd rather turn stuff down than have to reamplify it later in case something needs to jump in volume. I like to keep the tracks on an even keel.
 
In recording we have something called a "Nominal Level", or otherwise known as "the yellow level". Thats where you want to be.


You have to remember that amplitude is exponential. So when you layer waves together they just add up- resulting in distorted sound.

Everytime you increase a sound by 3db, that is double the power.

And that adds up...think about it.
 
rudalicious said:
but i feel if i bring my levels down on separate tracks to say -6 to -3 I can make things fit together better. Now is that all in my head or is it acutally becuase im using less headroom?
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hit it right on the head, yup using less head room...IMO you should have your master bus peaking at -3db preferably -6db. Easy way to turn all your tracks down to is to lower the volume of the master fader as well
 
Teacher said:
hit it right on the head, yup using less head room...IMO you should have your master bus peaking at -3db preferably -6db. Easy way to turn all your tracks down to is to lower the volume of the master fader as well
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Not quite the same thing. When you are overloading the summing bus with too much level, and then bring the master fader down to make it appear as if it's under 0 dBFS you are creating distortion. You should leave the master fader at 0 and adjust the tracks so that there aren't any overs to avoid this. If you do have overs, the best thing would be to bring all of the tracks down by the same amount or look at possibly limiting or compressing tracks that are contributing to the overs (if you want to keep your mixes hotter). Peaking to 0dBFS on the master this way shouldn't be a problem.
 
4-Man Takedown said:
Hey Tom, is this true for all DAW's?

Thanks for the info, I had heard about this, but wasn't quite sure if it was true or not.
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Yep, it's the same "across the board". A 32 bit floating point bus is more forgiving however than 24 bit fixed.
 
masteringhouse said:
Not quite the same thing. When you are overloading the summing bus with too much level, and then bring the master fader down to make it appear as if it's under 0 dBFS you are creating distortion. You should leave the master fader at 0 and adjust the tracks so that there aren't any overs to avoid this. If you do have overs, the best thing would be to bring all of the tracks down by the same amount or look at possibly limiting or compressing tracks that are contributing to the overs (if you want to keep your mixes hotter). Peaking to 0dBFS on the master this way shouldn't be a problem.
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Bob Ohlsson told me bringing down the master fader a few DB's is the same as bring down each track the same amount(unless i miss understood him)...if its true I don't know for sure I just went off his word and with his 30+ years of experience I think I'll go with him unless i'm misunderstanding completely which could be possible...YMMV
 
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