Tons of Insulation to Install

[getuhgrip]

I'm just about ready to put the ceiling up in my music room (24' X 13'). 12" joists. Anything new and cheap under the sun these days? What's the least expensive roll material that provides some level of sound deadening?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

First off, what do you mean by "ceiling"? Are you planning on DRYWALL, or are you going to cover the insulation with fabric?

If you are using drywall, the insulation does nothing to "deaden" the sound in the room although it does slightly "help" with transmission loss to the floor above(not with Low frequencies). If you are covering it with fabric, standard batt insulation helps, but frankly, if your intention is broadband absorption, you need to use products that have a density of 3lbs per cubic foot, such as rigid fiberglass, rock wool, or other mineral wool products.
fitZ

 

[getuhgrip]

Hey Rick. My concern is isolating the floor above. I'll be running a drywall ceiling. I'll be testing different sound absorption panels to tame the room itself when basic construction is done.

I didn't have the benefit of directing some of the construction processes I would have liked; staggered studs, walls blown with insulation, etc. Now it's more like damage control! Wife and I fight while I'm listening to music and she's trying to watch TV upstairs!

Going shopping for a 36" door. Any thoughts along those lines?

 

[dintymoore]

If you end up using a stapler to put some stuff up I bought an electric stapler from Ace Hardware, it was cheap like $20, and man is that thing better than those POS manual Arrow staplers I'd been using.
Makes the work of insulation go way faster, and saves your hands.
I'll never use one of those manual Arrow staplers again - they're horrible! I bought an electric Arrow one and it was crap and broke. The Ace one works great - I used it to put up the roofing paper on my roof and what a time saver.

 

[Jeff_D]

Holy shit. Basement w/ 10' ceiling?! Awesome.

Rockwool is way cheaper than rigid fiberglass, but I'd get the heavier stuff. Roxul makes fire safing that is 4.5 lb/cu.ft. I'd definatly look into resilient channel and a couple layers of drywall. Even better, look for isolation hangers and hang another wood framed drywall ceiling from the ceiling you already have. Looks like you have plenty of room to do it- I'm guessing it would cost you 4-6 inches. Check out Rod G's book. I was flipping through it the other day at the music store and he had a detail for it (his book is on my xmas list ) With as much room as you have, I'd say you have options...

 

[Jeff_D]

Also, if you are looking at options to finish off that floor, find your local concrete supply dealer and look for this stuff... http://www.brickform.com/product.php?product_id=252

Its acid based stain and can be quite attractive... and its easy to do. I did my back porch and I think it worked out to like 50 cents a square foot.

 

[getuhgrip]

I'm going to have to carpet this music room to get acoustic control of it.

I used a water based stain on the floor in the bar I'm building around the corner from the studio. Super easy to use, amazing results! Easy masking, easy application, and uber-durable. I've got four coats of clear on it now. When bar is built, I'll roll two more just for good measure.

The hard part was spraying the open-beam ceiling. Masking project from hell, and what a mess!

Well worth the effort, though. Built this house two years ago with a 1,900 square foot Man-Cave basement in mind. Last house had 7' ceilings and pole supports. Not this time! Wife has been very tolerant!

 

[Jeff_D]

Cool. Next time you spray a ceiling, look for dryfall paint. The overspray dries up before it hits the ground so you can pretty much sweep it up. Of course you still have to mask, but it makes clean up a little easier anyway...

Looks like you did it right!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hey Rick. My concern is isolating the floor above. I'll be running a drywall ceiling. I'll be testing different sound absorption panels to tame the room itself when basic construction is done.

WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT A MINUTE! Hey getuhgrip, this is a whole nuther animal than what you initially asked about.

I didn't have the benefit of directing some of the construction processes I would have liked; staggered studs, walls blown with insulation, etc. Now it's more like damage control!

Let me get this straight. First off, I'm a little confused about the two sets of pictures. The ones with the bare concrete is BEFORE construction, and the first one is AFTER, is that correct? And the staggered stud thing too. Did you or did you NOT use staggered studs, and if you did, WHERE? Not only that but what did you build in front of the basement concrete exterior walls?

Ok, let me make this absolutely clear from the outset. Without knowing ALL the CONNECTION details of the walls to the ceiling, at this point, I would guess whoever did the actual construction DIRECTLY fastened the top plates of the walls to the floor joists above, NO? And if so... BIG MISTAKE which may make any attempt at improving TRANSMISSION LOSS through the floor MEMBRANE a lesson in hindsight...ie..useless.

You see, LOW FREQUENCY STRUCTURAL transmission from walls to joists to the room above is now impossible to stop..unless drastic and expensive MODIFICATIONS are implimented BEFORE any work is done to the ceiling. Furthermore, I don't know what you planned and or installed as a HVAC system for the basement, but if its a typical installation, I
d guess you have DUCTING tied into the main household ducts, which in reality are a DIRECT FLANKING PATH to the upstairs, regardless of what ever noise abatement scheme you use.


It appears you have gone to great lengths to gain the adequet space for your "man space", but in retrospect, you either didn't know about TRANSMISSION LOSS construction or neglected to inform your self of the implications of your INTENDED USE prior to construction. In either case, at this point i would suggest........STOP EVERYTHING...that is if you want to get a handle on this before you waste any more time and money..not to mention keeping peace in the familly while enjoying the fruits of your endeavor.

getuhgrip, before I can help you, you REALLY need to tell me EVERYTHING you can about the constrution. Any pics of it during the process? And then post a plan of the entire basement, showing what type walls are where,doors and type of doors, another showing the BEAM, JOISTS, DUCTS(supply and returns and plenums and the HVAC unit, REGISTERS, PIPES, STAIRS, DOORS, and anything elses such as laundry appliances etc. Also tell what room is
ABOVE . Tell me everything you can. Otherwise, I submit you are spittin in the wind when it comes to the ceiling.

fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Also, take some pictures of the conditions where the various partition walls meet the joists. I need to see if any blocking was installed OVER the plates between joists. More on this later.

getuhgrip, I want to help you, but at the moment I'm dealing with my OWN nightmare...ie...a COLLAPSED SEPTIC TANK!! fuck. I'll be back though.

 

[Weasel9992]

I'm going to have to carpet this music room to get acoustic control of it.

Mmmmm...maybe. I would not be inclined to do that though. I'd leave the floor hard and treat the ceiling...you may have to add a couple/few 5'x8' area rugs, but it'll leave the liveliness intact.

Frank

 

[getuhgrip]

Disregard pictures of bar area. Two separate rooms. Floor fastened directly to joists. Assume "all the wrong stuff."

With all due respect and appreciation in mind, let me really quantify my hopes and interests....

Just the Mrs. and I in this house. I'm not overly concerned with sound escaping the studio. If there are some realistic steps I can take to minimize it, I will do so to keep the peace. If I can't...well, I'm bigger than she is, and a really nice guy to boot!

Room as it is, is what I will describe as "acoustically out of control"; drums ring with endless sustain. I love the "in concert" effect it has on guitar playing, but that's what reverb's for. Not good for recording drums.

Unless there is a cheaper, less laborious approach to the ceiling, my intent is to load it with insulation, and cover with drywall. Is fabric better? Okay...why, and what physical application is desirable?

I play rock. Really LOUD rock. I'm going to record really loud rock in my Hobby Studio. Not trying to market it as a professionally finished product. More of a "Hey guys, look what I did!"

That said, are there some budget wall treatments that might make for a more reasonable recording? I'm not going to spend $1,000 on acoustic foam or elaborate traps. Just not in the budget. Note: I'm pretty damn handy when it comes to fabricating almost anything.

My thought about the floor was that carpet would help tone down some of the natural hall effect. Not true? True, but not helpful? I can absolutely live without carpet, just tell me why I want to. Hell, I'm all for staining the floor in there like I did the bar.

So there ya have it. I've exposed myself as a "non-purist". I'm not Brucey Bluebear. Love the guy to death, but I'm not him.

 

[getuhgrip]

I'm dealing with my OWN nightmare...ie...a COLLAPSED SEPTIC TANK!! fuck. I'll be back though.

Oh man, no fun at all!

Not that there's any "right" time of year, but this certailny isn't a good time of year to be dealing with that kind of disaster. Good luck with it, Rick.

 

[scott free]

I love the big spa ces
Awesome!
Scott.

 

[Weasel9992]

That said, are there some budget wall treatments that might make for a more reasonable recording? I'm not going to spend $1,000 on acoustic foam or elaborate traps. Just not in the budget. Note: I'm pretty damn handy when it comes to fabricating almost anything.

Clearly you are. That's really great work. Yeah, there are a bunch of DIY plans for acoustic panels...just do a Google search for DIY acoustic panels or something and you'll get a million hits.

My thought about the floor was that carpet would help tone down some of the natural hall effect. Not true? True, but not helpful? I can absolutely live without carpet, just tell me why I want to. Hell, I'm all for staining the floor in there like I did the bar.

Yes, it'll definitely do that. I'm thinking in terms of recording. A bare floor gives you the most flexibility because you can always add rugs and gobos to shape the decay time some. It'll certainly always be more live than if you'd put carpet on the floor and acoustic treatment above the recording area though.

Frank

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

this certailny isn't a good time of year to be dealing with that kind of disaster

Coldest day in 30 years here yesterday Everything is ice. Diggin the old tank out today. Got a new one yesterday. Hopefully I'll be done with this pain in the ass by the end of the day.

Ok, I've got a suggestion. Although it might also be a pain in the ass, it should improve your situation substantially...although there is a caveat.

Without knowing your HVAC situation, I'm hesitant to suggest this, but here goes anyway.

If it were me, I would install 2 layers of 5/8" drywall, right up against the UNDERSIDE of the existing sub flooring, between the joists, caulking each layer as you put it in. Then fill the joist cavities with BATT insulation, using plastic straping to hold it in place or if it comes with paper backing with edges for stapling, cool.

THEN, I would hang HATCHANNEL by ISOLATORS, and fasten 2 more layers of drywall to the hatchannel. Caulk all 1st layer joints. Overlap all 1'st layer joints with 2nd layer. Leave 1/4" gap at perimeter, stuff foam backer rod in gap and caulk. You may have to frame around plenums, ducts etc. Also, you may have to install blocking between or parallel to joists over partition walls to stop flanking over walls...if you have a "live room"/control room situation.

If you don't want to hassle the hatchannel scenario, just fasten 2 layers drywall directly to joists. Remember, caulk is your freind. Use butyl rubber or other non-hardening caulk. There are many. Even use cheap stuff as long as it is guaranteed to stay flexible.

Here is the caveats. This is FOUR layers of drywall. HEAVY. Which is exactly the point. MASS...MASS...MASS. And better yet...DECOUPLED MASS. However, IF you do decide to do this, do NOT proceed without getting an evaluation by a qualified STRUCTURAL ENGINEER.

The other is you ducting. You can build baffle boxes at some point in the system to help attenuate sound traveling back through the ducts to the rooms upstairs. However, I would have to see your ducting layouts to suggest where.

Ok, given your view, situation and existing construction, thats all I have to offer for now. This assumes your stair doors are solid core, all penetrations through the floor membrane above have been caulked, and a few other things too difficult to explain or even guess without seeing the layout of joists, walls etc. This whole subject should have been addressed from the getgo. However, like you said, this is damage control, and this is the best advice I can offer at this point given that you want to play LOUD ROCK and keep peace somewhat.

As to acoustics....think SUPERCHUNKS and lots of Broadband absorption in checkerboard fashion. The cheapest way to do it is by purchasing 4" thick Knauf rigid fiberglass in 4x10 panels and cut it yourself for what ever size you need.

Here is mine when I bought it.

If I had a plan of your rooms, I'd show you where to place it...but....you seem to not even want to do that...so. good luck.

These might help you though.

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewforum.php?f=8
fitZ

 

[Doowah]

Hey Rick. My concern is isolating the floor above. I'll be running a drywall ceiling. I'll be testing different sound absorption panels to tame the room itself when basic construction is done.

I didn't have the benefit of directing some of the construction processes I would have liked; staggered studs, walls blown with insulation, etc. Now it's more like damage control! Wife and I fight while I'm listening to music and she's trying to watch TV upstairs!

Going shopping for a 36" door. Any thoughts along those lines?

OMG! I hate you!

What a BEAUTIFUL environment. Good for you, my friend! Can I come over and play?

 

[getuhgrip]

Let me start fresh....

I have 2 goals in mind:
1) Tame over tones from drums for decent recording.
2) Minimize noise escaping room. Wife's request, not necessarily mine.

Questions:

1) If budget allows, do I want to run two layers of drywall on the ceiling? Getting bids today.
2) Do I want to carpet this room for any reason? I don't care either way. I can live with either carpet or concrete stain.

The room is a 26X14X10 "box" with attached equipment closet. Might use closet as vox room if needed. Either way, I'm installing a pocket door to maximize wall space.

Given the layout in the pictures, what type and size of panels would be advantageous?

 

[Weasel9992]

Given the layout in the pictures, what type and size of panels would be advantageous?

First, you need to be WAY back from that front wall. The 38% point would be a little more than 9' from the front wall...given a 5' monitoring triangle that would put your speakers about 4' from the front wall.

At that point you should treat the room as you would normally: bass trapping floor to ceiling in all four corners, thicker bass traps on the back wall, then 2" high frequency panels at the reflection points and on the front wall. Since the ceiling is still a little low, 4" panels might be better above the mix position.

In the back of the room you should probably stick with 2" panels with diffusion striped between them or to the right and left side. I'd also look at doing the same thing on the right and left walls near the rear of the room, and maybe even striping some diffusion with the bass traps on the back wall in the same way. This will keep the room controlled, but lively.

Frank

 

[DayOfVengeance]

hey getagrip, can i ask why you didn't put a sub floor in for the live room?