Tonewoods....

[Greg_L]

The "Swamp Ash" thread got me thinking again about something I've always wondered about.....

Do "tonewoods" really matter all that much with electric guitars?

I was talking to a Gibson rep/builder not too long ago and he said it doesn't really matter. Historically most woods are chosen for appearance. My guitar ear isn't that refined though. But I do firmly believe that with drums, for example, the shell wood means very little. The tonal differences between maple, birch, oak, etc shells is very insignificant and drum tone is much, much more dependent on head type and tuning. Wouldn't it be the same with an electric guitar? Aren't there more important variables that significantly affect tone than the stupid wood that the guitar is made of? I'm not saying there's no difference, but I'm thinking the differences are pretty negligible. Don't things like strings and pickups and pots and the friggin amp itself matter way more than wood?

 

[jimistone]

I know that dense wood has a thin tone and softer wood has a fatter tone.
The ash bodied fender guitars I have played seem to have more pronouced highs and lows while the alder fenders seen to have more midrange punch. Unplugged and plugged in.
I have heard that pine bodies offer a killer tone but it's very soft and dents easily.
So I think the wood has a lot to do with the tone...pickups greatly effect tone too.

I have a huge ceder log behind my house that has been drying for 6 years. I think I may cut a Tele bodie out of it just to see how it sounds

 

[Slowrider]

The "Swamp Ash" thread got me thinking again about something I've always wondered about.....

Do "tonewoods" really matter all that much with electric guitars?

I was talking to a Gibson rep/builder not too long ago and he said it doesn't really matter. Historically most woods are chosen for appearance. My guitar ear isn't that refined though. But I do firmly believe that with drums, for example, the shell wood means very little. The tonal differences between maple, birch, oak, etc shells is very insignificant and drum tone is much, much more dependent on head type and tuning. Wouldn't it be the same with an electric guitar? Aren't there more important variables that significantly affect tone than the stupid wood that the guitar is made of? I'm not saying there's no difference, but I'm thinking the differences are pretty negligible. Don't things like strings and pickups and pots and the friggin amp itself matter way more than wood?

Not really, on an electric guitfiddle.

But crazy people, will pay thousands of dollars to have the harder woods.

They definitely matter on all types of drums, though.

 

[ido1957]

There's a video on Fender's site - Custom Shop ?? - where they discuss wood. The guy taps on a couple of different bodies and states that "this body will be brighter than that one" and does neck stuff to compensate. Not sure but he is a builder so he might be right...

 

[jimistone]

Hey Greg, if the guy was a Gibson rep and said it didn't really matter you should have said:

"so why does Gibson use a body wood, on les pauls, so heavy that it has to have weight relief pockets....when the only cosmetic thing showing is the very thin carved maple cap?"

It would be interesting to hear him answer that.
Seems like a lighter wood would be better to me.

 

[Phrasemaker]

Pretty much every part of an electric guitar is subjected to the vibration which the strings produce when they generate a tone at any frequency. All materials resonate at one frequency or other. I'm inclined to go along with the fact that when the strings produce a note, the body will absorb some of that energy through the bridge as well as through proximity and neck. The pickups are attached to the body through various means. The fact that some pickups are fitted in such a way as to isolate them from body resonance brought about by the amplified sound from the strings, leads me to think that different densities and grain textures will behave differently. In so much that string vibration is transferred the body, it is logical to state that body vibration will in some small measure influence the duration of a particular note vibration, either absorbing energy and helping it dissipate or reflecting some back to the strings. I ask myself, is there a different sound produced through the pickups if I tap my guitar body with my palm to that which is produced if I tap it with my cigarette lighter?

 

[Greg_L]

Hey Greg, if the guy was a Gibson rep and said it didn't really matter you should have said:

"so why does Gibson use a body wood, on les pauls, so heavy that it has to have weight relief pockets....when the only cosmetic thing showing is the very thin carved maple cap?"

It would be interesting to hear him answer that.
Seems like a lighter wood would be better to me.

I did ask him. He said they still use solid mahogany strictly for tradition because that's what customers expect. Who wants a basswood Les Paul? The maple cap is chosen for visual appeal, or if it's a painted guitar they just use whatever. Ebony vs Rosewood vs baked maple fretboards? Purely aesthetics and feel. People freaked out over baked maple on Gibsons because it didn't look right. It had nothing to do with sound. All those old acoustics with fancy Spruce tops....strictly for looks. Those old guitar builders chose wood that looked nice for sales. They paid little to no attention to the actual sound qualities of wood. I tend to believe him because I feel the same way about drums. Drum shell woods matter very little. All they have to be is round, and have a good bearing edge. The actual species of wood is mostly meaningless once you slap a head on both sides and tune it up. I bet guitars are the same way. All this wood stuff is probably cork sniffery to a degree. Maybe very clean electric tones are more affected by wood choice. An overdriven tone makes all that shit moot.

 

[Greg_L]

I ask myself, is there a different sound produced through the pickups if I tap my guitar body with my palm to that which is produced if I tap it with my cigarette lighter?

Ask yourself this: Wouldn't tapping with your palm or lighter sound different regardless of what the guitar is made of?

 

[jimistone]

I think some of it has to do with finding the right ratio of density and weight. For instance oak is a very hard wood but it's so heavy it would cut off the circulation to your shoulder to gig with a guitar of oak.
On the other side of the spectrum is pine....it's very light weight but so soft the slightest little bump would dent a guitar made of pine.

"tone woods" tend to be a good mix of hardness at the least possible weight. Like swamp ash and alder...both are tough and not easily dinged and also light weight.
With swamp ash you get 3 things actually: it's light, it's tough, and it has a very attractive wood grain which is great for transparent finishes.

I agree that a distorted hi gain guitar sound isn't affected by the wood nearly as much as a clean sound.

 

[Greg_L]

How much of an actual concern is weight though? I mean for regular people, not old farts with big bellies and bad backs. Les Pauls are heavy, but it hasn't hurt their sales any. They're as popular as ever, and no one wants their chambered stuff. The more solid the better with Les Pauls. Even their swiss-cheesing is still pretty heavy. I personally don't like light guitars. They feel like flimsy toys to me. Like SGs. I love the way they sound and play, but it's like holding a fence picket. I'm not a big Tele guy, but aren't they kind of heavy?

 

[Phrasemaker]

Ask yourself this: Wouldn't tapping with your palm or lighter sound different regardless of what the guitar is made of?

Yes it would, as would my pick grip as opposed to yours. As would two identically shaped bodies fashioned from different woods when tapped in the same way.
The palm might be close, but the harder lighter would generate a greater contrast between the two bodies.

 

[Greg_L]

Yes it would, as would my pick grip as opposed to yours. As would two identically shaped bodies fashioned from different woods when tapped in the same way.
The palm might be close, but the harder lighter would generate a greater contrast between the two bodies.

So then wood doesn't actually matter any more than color, or it matters more than anything. No two trees are alike, so if wood really matters that much, even identical guitars made of the same species would sound totally different unless they're cut from the same trunk of the same tree. This is where and why I question the whole thing. I tend to think that other factors matter more. For another comparison, look at amp tubes. Some people spend a ridiculous amount of time rolling tubes looking for that just right tube combination. When in reality their time would probably be better spent thinking about pickups, or learning how to use their EQ controls, or just trying to play better. IMO tubes....and wood.....are way down the list of things that really matter.

 

[JCH]

Pretty much every part of an electric guitar is subjected to the vibration which the strings produce when they generate a tone at any frequency. All materials resonate at one frequency or other. I'm inclined to go along with the fact that when the strings produce a note, the body will absorb some of that energy through the bridge as well as through proximity and neck. The pickups are attached to the body through various means. The fact that some pickups are fitted in such a way as to isolate them from body resonance brought about by the amplified sound from the strings, leads me to think that different densities and grain textures will behave differently. In so much that string vibration is transferred the body, it is logical to state that body vibration will in some small measure influence the duration of a particular note vibration, either absorbing energy and helping it dissipate or reflecting some back to the strings. I ask myself, is there a different sound produced through the pickups if I tap my guitar body with my palm to that which is produced if I tap it with my cigarette lighter?

Everything that you put into a guitar is going to (however minuscule it might be) alter the tone. That being agreed upon, the question remains, what alters tone the most? The type of wood certainly has some significant impact, and neck material is the biggest player. Method of construction will also alter the tone. Necks, and bodies with multiple laminations will react much differently than a single piece of wood. The guitar string transfers it's energy through the bridge, and the nut. A bunch of glue joints added in between them can only stiffen everything. Once you do this, the characteristics of your tone wood are lost, and you're basically building a stiff, sterile sounding guitar. Plywood doesn't resonate very well in comparison to solid wood. Drum shells are plywood, which is why gerg doesn't hear much difference in species.

The reference to microphonic pickups in relation to tonewood is ridiculous. If you tap the top of your electric guitar and hear it through your amp, your pickup is microphonic. This has nothing to do with anything else. When you see different mounting techniques it's to minimize this.

 

[jimistone]

How much of an actual concern is weight though? I mean for regular people, not old farts with big bellies and bad backs. Les Pauls are heavy, but it hasn't hurt their sales any. They're as popular as ever, and no one wants their chambered stuff. The more solid the better with Les Pauls. Even their swiss-cheesing is still pretty heavy. I personally don't like light guitars. They feel like flimsy toys to me. Like SGs. I love the way they sound and play, but it's like holding a fence picket. I'm not a big Tele guy, but aren't they kind of heavy?

I used to have a '76 cherry burst les Paul custom...someone had routed it for another humbucker and it had 3 cream colored super distortion dimarzios....diamond inlay on the headstock ...gold hardware...it WAS the ace freely les Paul without a doubt. I used it being butchered as a bargaining point and got it for $100.
That was the heaviest guitar I ever strapped on in my life. It would make my right arm go numb by the end of the 1st set I shit you not.
It was a very uncomfortable guitar to gig with... But it was a very cool guitar to look at and had a killer rock and roll tone.
I found a boat motor I wanted and sold that 3 Pickup custom for $250
My wife said "please don't sell that guitar....that's the coolest most beautiful guitar you've ever had and it sounds so good."
I told her "well, you strap that sob on for an hour and then tell me how cool it is...it's movin' on down the line baby!"

See, if it wasn't for the heaviness of that monster I wouldnt have sold it and would STILL have a damn ace freely style 3 pickup Gibson clown bust custom....instead of selling it cheap like a dumbass.

 

[muttley600]

Bloody hell. You guys have run with this baton......

I'm pretty sure you guys have posted a lot of good stuff and a bunch of shit too. I'll read it through later and we can argue it for as many posts as you like..

 

[muttley600]

The "Swamp Ash" thread got me thinking again about something I've always wondered about.....

Do "tonewoods" really matter all that much with electric guitars?

I was talking to a Gibson rep/builder not too long ago and he said it doesn't really matter. Historically most woods are chosen for appearance. My guitar ear isn't that refined though. But I do firmly believe that with drums, for example, the shell wood means very little. The tonal differences between maple, birch, oak, etc shells is very insignificant and drum tone is much, much more dependent on head type and tuning. Wouldn't it be the same with an electric guitar? Aren't there more important variables that significantly affect tone than the stupid wood that the guitar is made of? I'm not saying there's no difference, but I'm thinking the differences are pretty negligible. Don't things like strings and pickups and pots and the friggin amp itself matter way more than wood?

Thats largely correct but I'd add a few caveats.

Drum shells are largely ply constructed and as such more " homogeneous".
There are huge differences between species of timber on a solid body guitar.

I've posted on this quite a bit in the past and generally the rule is that on an electric what you get is the harmonic series in the string which is dictated by the body and neck materials reflecting energy back down the string. With an acoustic instrument what you get is the harmonic series of the top and enclosure created by the vibrating string. They are two completely different systems.

Selecting timber for either is still important but structurally is more critical on an acoustic. On an electric you hear mostly pickup and then wood. On an acoustic you hear wood then pickup which is why most acoustic pickups suck.

 

[muttley600]

I used to have a '76 cherry burst les Paul custom...someone had routed it for another humbucker and it had 3 cream colored super distortion dimarzios....diamond inlay on the headstock ...gold hardware...it WAS the ace freely les Paul without a doubt. I used it being butchered as a bargaining point and got it for $100.
That was the heaviest guitar I ever strapped on in my life. It would make my right arm go numb by the end of the 1st set I shit you not.
It was a very uncomfortable guitar to gig with... But it was a very cool guitar to look at and had a killer rock and roll tone.
I found a boat motor I wanted and sold that 3 Pickup custom for $250
My wife said "please don't sell that guitar....that's the coolest most beautiful guitar you've ever had and it sounds so good."
I told her "well, you strap that sob on for an hour and then tell me how cool it is...it's movin' on down the line baby!"

See, if it wasn't for the heaviness of that monster I wouldnt have sold it and would STILL have a damn ace freely style 3 pickup Gibson clown bust custom....instead of selling it cheap like a dumbass.

Goes to show that wifey is right more often than we give credit for..

 

[muttley600]

There's a video on Fender's site - Custom Shop ?? - where they discuss wood. The guy taps on a couple of different bodies and states that "this body will be brighter than that one" and does neck stuff to compensate. Not sure but he is a builder so he might be right...

He would be selling snake oil.

Tap tones are at best a personal judgement and at worst snake oil. Most everyone that buys ans sells tonewoods will judge it on mass/stiffness and not on any "raw" audible tone. Admittedly sometimes tapping may give you cause to look closer but if you tap it in another place and with a different anchor point it will sound completely different, Try it on any lump of wood. You can find a point where you hold it between finger and thumb and tap it and it will ring. Switch and it will not. There are sound physical reasons for this.

 

[muttley600]

Everything that you put into a guitar is going to (however minuscule it might be) alter the tone. That being agreed upon, the question remains, what alters tone the most? The type of wood certainly has some significant impact, and neck material is the biggest player. Method of construction will also alter the tone. Necks, and bodies with multiple laminations will react much differently than a single piece of wood. The guitar string transfers it's energy through the bridge, and the nut. A bunch of glue joints added in between them can only stiffen everything. Once you do this, the characteristics of your tone wood are lost, and you're basically building a stiff, sterile sounding guitar. Plywood doesn't resonate very well in comparison to solid wood. Drum shells are plywood, which is why gerg doesn't hear much difference in species.

The reference to microphonic pickups in relation to tonewood is ridiculous. If you tap the top of your electric guitar and hear it through your amp, your pickup is microphonic. This has nothing to do with anything else. When you see different mounting techniques it's to minimize this.

Much of what you say is based on sound observation.... Don't muddy it with subjective observations. Difficult I know but give it a go...

 

[Greg_L]

On an electric you hear mostly pickup and then wood..

That's pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking, especially with crunchy or higher gain tones. Pickups, amps, and speakers make the most significant differences IMO. Take Angus and Malcolm Young. They play drastically different guitars, but both use humbuckers through the same loud as fuck amps, and their basic tones are pretty damn similar. I use different guitars all the time on my own recordings. A Strat, SG, Les Paul, and my new Hallmark Mosrite clone, and I most often can't remember what I used for what. It all pretty much sounds like the same crap. Lol.