Toms don't pop out

[Ronan]

Same drums, same room, same levels, same mic's.
But adifferent drummer!

This lesson really hit me hard about 10 years ago. I was recording an album for the great Cuban/Jazz band Chucho Valdes y Groupo Irakere. I sat behind the drummer's kit (Enrique Pla) and hit his toms and they sounded really bad, no articulation, way to ringy. I was really worried about how I was going to convey my drum tuning needs to a Cuban that spoke no English (I speak no Spanish) Then Enrique sat behind the drums and they sounded amazing

This lesson keeps getting hammered into my head over and over. I am lucky enough to work with some of the best drummers in world, and the thing about amazing drummers is that you can put a boom box on the other side of the room and the drums sound great. A drum magazine did an article on me a little while back and asked me what my secret was to great drums sounds. My answer was "gret the right drummer playing the right part and stay out of the way"

 

[Tonio]

Irakere???

Whoa!!,
do tell more please!! what album was this for?

Could you pass information regarding the percussion section? e.g. mics, pre's comps etc..

Would be eternally greatful.

T

This lesson really hit me hard about 10 years ago. I was recording an album for the great Cuban/Jazz band Chucho Valdes y Groupo Irakere. I sat behind the drummer's kit (Enrique Pla) and hit his toms and they sounded really bad, no articulation, way to ringy. I was really worried about how I was going to convey my drum tuning needs to a Cuban that spoke no English (I speak no Spanish) Then Enrique sat behind the drums and they sounded amazing

This lesson keeps getting hammered into my head over and over. I am lucky enough to work with some of the best drummers in world, and the thing about amazing drummers is that you can put a boom box on the other side of the room and the drums sound great. A drum magazine did an article on me a little while back and asked me what my secret was to great drums sounds. My answer was "gret the right drummer playing the right part and stay out of the way"

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Same drums, same room, same levels, same mic's.
But adifferent drummer!

My recorded take sounded like glory on a stick.

Moral here is, even if you got everything just right.
The performer can easily turn it into something wrong.

Dude--never, ever, EVER do your soundchecks with anyone *other* than the drummer you are recording!

It's cool that you tuned their kit and so on (I do the same thing), but after I'm done tuning the kit I get the real drummer on there for mic placement and fine tuning of the kit.

Don't feel bad, I found out the hard way one time as well. I got sounds and it was rocking, and the drummer came in and was totally inconsistent on where he hit the toms and snare, and played the hi-hat about 20 times louder than is remotely necessary, totally crashed his cymbals until they got that WOOSH sound from the air coming off them. It was BAD.

Of course, he was an extremely bad drummer, but wouldn't believe it when I told him he needed to work on his control. Sure, he played in time, and could do complicated stuff, but his dynamics and control were utter nonsense.

So I had to reset all the mics to adjust for his cymbal crashing style. And it still sucked ass because of his inept playing.

What *IS* it with drummers???? Why do they insist on lightly tapping the toms with a little pussy tickle, and beat the crap out of every cymbal and hi-hat? WHY? WHY?

Try to explain to them that great drummers like Moon or Bonham would have the control to drop tac-nukes on the snare and toms while keeping a controlled touch on the cymbals and they look at you like you're nuts. I'm so sick of my overheads being choked by SSS-SSSS-SSSS-SSSS-CHHHHHRASHHHH-SSSS-SSSS that it isn't even funny.

I'm gonna start putting triggers on the drums without their knowledge... bastards.

 

[xfinsterx]

Dude--never, ever, EVER do your soundchecks with anyone *other* than the drummer you are recording!

I never said in my post that i didnt. I said i was "getting sounds" not "sound checking".
I always use the drummer to be playing on the track as the true sound check, or course.

What *IS* it with drummers???? Why do they insist on lightly tapping the toms with a little pussy tickle, and beat the crap out of every cymbal and hi-hat? WHY? WHY?

hahahaha

 

[Tonio]

I got sounds and it was rocking, and the drummer came in and was totally inconsistent on where he hit the toms and snare, and played the hi-hat about 20 times louder than is remotely necessary, totally crashed his cymbals until they got that WOOSH sound from the air coming off them. It was BAD.

Of course, he was an extremely bad drummer, but wouldn't believe it when I told him he needed to work on his control. Sure, he played in time, and could do complicated stuff, but his dynamics and control were utter nonsense.

>>geez clone pretty harsh there?

So I had to reset all the mics to adjust for his cymbal crashing style. And it still sucked ass because of his inept playing.

What *IS* it with drummers???? Why do they insist on lightly tapping the toms with a little pussy tickle, and beat the crap out of every cymbal and hi-hat? WHY? WHY?

Try to explain to them that great drummers like Moon or Bonham would have the control to drop tac-nukes on the snare and toms while keeping a controlled touch on the cymbals and they look at you like you're nuts. I'm so sick of my overheads being choked by SSS-SSSS-SSSS-SSSS-CHHHHHRASHHHH-SSSS-SSSS that it isn't even funny.

I'm gonna start putting triggers on the drums without their knowledge... bastards.

I agree they bastids, but each has their style , well least if they are up to a certian level.

Don't get me wrong, I comiserate with your - with the " bad" ones, but sometimes I think you need to understand there's 2 sides to it. Live drummers and the ones who know how to deal with recording. Guess some seasoned lashing is required?

But all -in-all I would agree with you. Consider a percussionist with one of them drummers. uhh hello, theres other members in the band...

T

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

I never said in my post that i didnt. I said i was "getting sounds" not "sound checking".

Oh, sorry dude.

I know what you are talking about though: the Mixerman like surrealism of 'gee that 6000 dollar DW kit is sounding ass, lemme check the heads... hrm, heads are okay, lemme re-check tuning... k tuning is good, hrm, lemme play on it a little bit and see what it sounds like... listen to playback--wow, sounds good... put regular drummer on kit--sounds like ass'

I hate those drummers that have no substance to their playing, it's just mash the oars into the high hat and crash cymbals every other measure at 900 pounds per square inch, meanwhile the toms and snare sound like mosquito farts in the mix.

And *THEN* they will want you to 'turn down the cymbals' so they can hear the toms... RATBASTARD! YOU'RE THE ONE THAT SHOULD BE CONTROLLING YOUR OWN VOLUME!!!!

That's why I have a R8 drum machine. It never loses a beat, always plays it perfectly, and will never need to bum gas money off me because they broke up with their girlfriend.

 

[Ronan]

RE:Irakere
Whoa!!,
do tell more please!! what album was this for?

Could you pass information regarding the percussion section? e.g. mics, pre's comps etc..
Would be eternally greatful.

The album was "Afrocubanismo" released by Bembe Records. It also included Los Munequitos de Metanzas (I probably just screwed up that spelling, but I screw up english to and its my first language)

Everything drums and percussion was dynamics, including SM57s on overheads, probably 421 on toms and kick. and all percussion would probably have been a mix of 57s, 421s and RE20s. It was all trident mic pres straight to tape (DA-88s). To tell you the truth I am really fuzzy on a lot of the other details after 10 years. But I have not forgotten how great it was to be standing a few feet away from Chucho while he played. One of the greatest musicians alive in my book.

Album was mixed by some one else (boy I hate label politics) and the mix is alright, but I thought the first version captured a little more of the rock and roll of it all.

 

[Bulls Hit]

Everything drums and percussion was dynamics, including SM57s on overheads, probably 421 on toms and kick. .

Ronan, do you still use dynamics overhead? I can't imagine a 57 would pick up the crispness of a snare or cymbal as well as an ohead condensor would

 

[LRosario]

I don't know if anybody suggested it already or not but...


Why don't you try recording the same drum beat twice and layering them together? Or program your single drum track to a midi drum track

It'll fatten up your sound.

 

[xfinsterx]

I don't know if anybody suggested it already or not but...


Why don't you try recording the same drum beat twice and layering them together? Or program your single drum track to a midi drum track

It'll fatten up your sound.

In terms of real drums and drummers...i dont think doubling would render a tight or consistent sound.
In terms of live drums there are ways to do what youre suggesting.
Compressing the kick and snare on a buss and then adding eq.
Then tucking that underneath the main tracks is a good way to get your idea done in the live arena.
As for midi and sampled drums??
Thats a fuckin cakewalk in comparison.

 

[Tonio]

dynamics eh? I suppose when you have that many things goin on you need the mics with large inventory to cover it. Alot of the cuban/jazz stuff does seem to be tracked in a "live" type setting, with a few overdubs
Guess when you have musicians at that caliber you don't really need comps!!
Chucho is the man.

Thanks for the info!!

The album was "Afrocubanismo" released by Bembe Records. It also included Los Munequitos de Metanzas (I probably just screwed up that spelling, but I screw up english to and its my first language)

Everything drums and percussion was dynamics, including SM57s on overheads, probably 421 on toms and kick. and all percussion would probably have been a mix of 57s, 421s and RE20s. It was all trident mic pres straight to tape (DA-88s). To tell you the truth I am really fuzzy on a lot of the other details after 10 years. But I have not forgotten how great it was to be standing a few feet away from Chucho while he played. One of the greatest musicians alive in my book.

Album was mixed by some one else (boy I hate label politics) and the mix is alright, but I thought the first version captured a little more of the rock and roll of it all.

 

[LRosario]

In terms of real drums and drummers...i dont think doubling would render a tight or consistent sound.
In terms of live drums there are ways to do what youre suggesting.
Compressing the kick and snare on a buss and then adding eq.
Then tucking that underneath the main tracks is a good way to get your idea done in the live arena.
As for midi and sampled drums??
Thats a fuckin cakewalk in comparison.

You misunderstood my suggestion. Not just doubling a drum track, but playing two alternate drum beats and layering together helps add more depth to the sound. We do this all the time during a mixing session and usually helps give more flexibility. So I would definitly disagree that it's only for a live situation. I

There are about a million different ways to get the same results. But no need to get surgical about sound dynamics. I understand drums and sound characteristics simply because I myself started out as a drummer.

As for midi; you can trigger your acoustic drums with midi and combine the two later on to add a difference in sound. These methods are more common than most would think.

 

[xfinsterx]

yes i did misunderstand your post. But i wasnt incorrect.
If you were to have a drummer try to double his part hit for hit it would sound like SHITTOLA! lol.

As for your layering idea...thats the goods.
Stacking drums can be very pleasing to the texture of a song.

YAs for midi; you can trigger your acoustic drums with midi and combine the two later on to add a difference in sound. These methods are more common than you would think.

Ive got a alesis dm5 and a kick and snare trigger.
How would i go about doing your suggestion.
A little detail would be nice. Thanx

 

[LRosario]

yes i did misunderstand your post. But i wasnt incorrect.
If you were to have a drummer try to double his part hit for hit it would sound like SHITTOLA! lol.

As for your layering idea...thats the goods.
Stacking drums can be very pleasing to the texture of a song.






Ive got a alesis dm5 and a kick and snare trigger.
How would i go about doing your suggestion.
A little detail would be nice. Thanx

About playing two different parts, there's actually a method I use to get the drummer right on time; a metronome. Makes it easier to line up the tracks later on. I depend on pro tools for all this, because thats what my job calls for, but other programs do it as well.

I always stress accurate timing before a session, especially the bassist and drummer.


As for midi and acoustic drums, again, this really only works if you got something like pro tools. Ideally, what you would do is:

record your analog track

record your midi track seperately (triggered to your drums)


then after you've made sure everything lines up in multi track view, and you got midi sounds you like, you have to convert your midi track into an analog signal. Naturally midi is not sound, it's binary information.

In pro tools we do this through rerouting the midi track through buses inside the software and record it as an analog signal.

However, that part you have to experiment with (assuming your software can do it)


This is great when you want really distinct drum sounds. A lot of 80s music made use of this.

 

[Ronan]

Ronan, do you still use dynamics overhead? I can't imagine a 57 would pick up the crispness of a snare or cymbal as well as an ohead condensor would

A 57 is never the first choice for overheads, but its still goes to testament that the Shure SM57 is one of the greatest piece of recording gear ever built that it even does the job on things it is not supposed to work on.

On the record in questions we had just run out of mics and were winging it. The Shure KSM32 is hands down my favorite drum overhead mic at any price.

I sound like a damn ad for Shure mics, but when the tools do the job.... There are a few other companies that make great mics at a fair price as well.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

On the record in questions we had just run out of mics and were winging it. The Shure KSM32 is hands down my favorite drum overhead mic at any price.

Wow, I was never that impressed with the KSM32. I'm more of a AKG 414 or AKG C451 fan for overheads. In general I don't dig Shure that much... although the SM81 is pretty cool for high hats, and the SM7 can be a lot of fun for guitar/bass/kick/snare.

 

[Ronan]

Wow, I was never that impressed with the KSM32. I'm more of a AKG 414 or AKG C451 fan for overheads.

This would make sense based on your signature. Most of those bands made records that were pretty agressive or bright on the top end (and that is certainly not a bad thing!) But the KSMs have a pretty natural top end and make drums sounds a lot like...well a lot like the drums I am recording.

By the way I have never figured out if those are bands you have worked with or just bands you love?