To PeteHalo, scsi is the way to go, not adat.

[jeff0633]

Hi Pete (and all others)

I notice in some of your postings that you are hooked on the adat card way of doing things. I just purchased two 1 gig jaz drives on ebay for 25 bucks each. I purchased three 1 gig disks for 30 bucks including shipping. That's 80 bucks, and they are as fast as many hard drives, I can transfer all 16 tracks, not in real time, but as fast as moving files from one hard drive to another, and then take the disk and load it in my jaz that's hooked up to the computer, and load them into Cooledit quickly, and all tracks are in sync, not just 8 of them. I still have adat, cause I can record anything in adat to the VF-160 first, then use my jaz to send it to the computer. I can format one disk and use it for backing up programs in the VF format, and use others for transfering wav files. I got the printer port converter too, and I can take my external jaz drive with me and hook it right up to any other computer as well, right to their printer port. I sold my 24 bit Echo Mia card on ebay for $125? (bid is still going), and paid around 80 bucks for this awesome backup package. The jaz in my computer is the internal, and the external stays with the VF-160. I can add many more 1 gig disks for around ten bucks each. Even one disk will transfer an entire 16 track 4 minute song, all in sync, to the computer in just minutes, for 80 bucks, and I still have adat in to the computer by using the one extra step of the jaz drive. Folks, an internal jaz for your computer, and an external for your VF can be had for around 60 bucks for both on ebay. This is definitely the way to go. I have tried to think of what adavntages the adat has over the jaz drive route, but I cannot think of any. I can think of many that the jaz has over the adat card route. Hell, I could have only purchased one external jaz drive with the printer port adaptor (or USB), and it would have been even far cheaper, but I liked the idea of not having to unplug the drive all the time. I looked on ebay again, and there was an internal unit with scsi PCI card and cable for frickin 25 more bucks, so I grabbed it. There are tons of these drives on ebay, all in the 20-40 range, and the new 2 gig drives are in the 40-70 range. Since a 1 gig will transfer many tracks, I don't see the need for the more expensive 2 gig. So there you go, a way to get 24 tracks, all in sync, over to your computer as fast as copying them from one drive to another, and for less than a 100 bucks. and you get to take it with you and hook it up to any othr computer too, and they also make a USB cable that will let the jaz hook up to any usb port.

Awesome!!

Jeff

 

[teainthesahara]

Hi Pete (and all others)

...This is definitely the way to go. I have tried to think of what adavntages the adat has over the jaz drive route, but I cannot think of any. I can think of many that the jaz has over the adat card route

Jeff

Excerpts from my response in a previous thread, but it might bear repeating...

....the ONLY thing that makes any method better than another is how it fits into your situation and meets your recording needs (while staying in budget, of course!). ADAT, SPDIF, JAZ, USB, external HD's, CDRW - all have their place, and NONE of them can be really said to be significantly better or worse than the other without prior knowledge of someones recording situation and what really fits their goals.....

.... in my experience, none stands upon a pedistle when compared to the others in all situations. To any newcomers to the VF machines, or people who are thinking about purchasing one, I hope you don't get the impression that you MUST have an ADAT with digital wires running to and fro from your PC for the VF to be of any use of to be of 'optimum' use. That would be a misconception!

....all of these options have their positives and negatives - but in the end, if you pick what matches your situation, - the whole thing sums to be a zero issue

Jeff - Good job in getting into your research to find your ideal solution...

T

 

[PeteHalo]

Jeff, please tell me how I can connect my VF to my computer using SCSI so that I can connect my mic or my DG Stomps output and record that signal directly to my computer while at the same time monitoring the playback from my computer? No way, I'm sure because the scsi way is for off-line use so to speak. There's nothing you can do using scsi that you can't with adat and a sequencer software but there's plenty you can do with adat that you simply cannot do using scsi no matter how hard you try or want it. If you want to use the VF on-line with your computer you need adat and that's the way that works the best for me.

 

[jeff0633]

Jeff, please tell me how I can connect my VF to my computer using SCSI so that I can connect my mic or my DG Stomps output and record that signal directly to my computer while at the same time monitoring the playback from my computer?
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Well, first off, why wouldn't you simply get record everything on your computer anyway? In this case, it seems as you are only using the VF as a mixer.

My meaning was that when it comes to recording on the VF, and getting those files onto the computer to edit, which is probably about 99 percent of what people mean when they either want an adat card or scsi for the VF, then scsi is clearly the way to go. It's faster, cheaper by as much as half, and requires no midi sync or use of a sequencer program. In the discussions where you support the adat way, I don't recall the other folks in the discussion needing to record LIVE to the computer. It would seem to me that that's a very rare need, and not what most people are attempting to do. Above, you don't even give reasons WHY that you NEED to do this. This is important, because then you would truly be giving a situation where the adat card is REQUIRED over the scsi. You have 16 tracks on the vf, why are you having to sync with a sequencer and midi cable and choosing to record straight to the computer? Why not record to the VF, and monitor from the outputs on the VF?





> No way, I'm sure because the scsi way is for off-line use so to speak.
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The VF is for offline use, or it would be a multi input soundcard.


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> There's nothing you can do using scsi that you can't with adat and a sequencer software
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I have pointed out several advantages. The cost is around half, and that don't even mention the cost of sequencing program. Adat has to transfer in REAL TIME, while the Jaz drive is as fast as a normal hard drive. For 16 tracks, you will have to make two passes of REAL TIME recording. With the Jaz, I can transfer 16 tracks as fast a moving wavs from one normal hard drive to another, and I don't need a sequencer to keep them in sync.

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but there's plenty you can do with adat that you simply cannot do using scsi no matter how hard you try or want it.
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Yet, you have named one thing, and it doesn't even require the VF at all that I can see, and it has nothing to do with what probably 95 percent of people would want to do were they deciding wether to go adat card or scsi. The large majority would be wanting to move recorded tracks on THE VF, over to a computer FOR EDITING AND BURNING CD'S. I can't see any situation where I would need or want to record direct to the computer using my VF as a mixer. That's why I bought the VF. I used to record with my Mia card, and I have owned several recording cards in the past, and I never did like the results for some reason.

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If you want to use the VF on-line with your computer you need adat and that's the way that works the best for me.

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More power to you, but what you are doing would seem very rare indeed, and I still can see no NEED even for you to do it when you can do the same thing by recording to your 16 tracks on the VF. I think my point still stands. I have heard one thing that the adat is better for, and it seems to me that 95 percent of the people using the VF would not require this rout. I would say again that when it comes to moving recorded tracks on the VF over to the PC for editing and burning (most everyone's true need when looking at these options), then the Jaz has every adavantage (price, speed, portability, 16 synced tracks at once....) Can you even backup program material in the VF format using adat over to the computer? I don't even think you can do this, can you? I had a VF format song backed up on a CDrw, and just put it in my computer, and the file was there. It was a .dat file, and I could have copied it to my hard drive for storge. Which means I can do the same off of a Jaz disks. Hell, I'm even finding more reasons to go with the jaz drive route. Now, I'm not even going to need but about three i-gig disks, because I can just use my computers hard drive to store all the backup songs I want. If you don't have a CD burner, and no scsi, can you even do this withe the Adat route?

Anyway, this discussion was important, because we need to get the options known to people. I respect that you want to record direct to your computer, but I almost spent 179 bucks buying an adat card just so I could move recorded tracks over to the computer. Thank goodness I did some research into the Jaz drive. I hope others reading this that simply want to send recorded tracks from the VF to the computer for editing and burning (which would be most all poeple considering these two options), that they will benefit from this discussion. I spent less than half on this route, and get faster performance and all tracks synced, and great backup possibilities and mobility.

Have a good one.

Jeff

 

[PeteHalo]

May I point out that where I live the Jaz drive nor any other scsi device has never been a big thing and therefore they are simply not available at those prices you mentioned.

Maybe the VF was not to ment to be a multichannel soundcard in the first place but that's not a very good reason to not use it as such if you have the need or feel comfortable doing so and if you can. I bet you have in some point in your career also used a piece of equipment for something else than the manufactured had designed it for, haven't you. IMHO that is the mark of creativity. I find it very easy to overdub new parts direct to computer at home after I've done the basic tracking with VF at our band's rehearsal space. And compared to the total time one spends mixing and editing a multitrack recording the ten minutes that it takes to transfer 16 tracks of a five minute song in two passes using ADAT has no relevance what so ever and given the benefits of adat that you simpy cannot have with scsi I still encourage VF users to explore those benefits.

Maybe I have bad memory or something but I don't recall having said that the adat way is THE ONLY WAY of transferring tracks to computer. What I do recall saying is that if you wan to take the computer/vf combo to the limit you need to use adat.

Speaking about backups IMHO it's better to get a new HD and use the used one as backup whet it fills up than to start burning CDR or using Jaz disks for that. The HDs are much more reliable than CDRs and backing up one 20GB HD takes 30 CDRs.

 

[jeff0633]

May I point out that where I live the Jaz drive nor any other scsi device has never been a big thing and therefore they are simply not available at those prices you mentioned.
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I can understand where you are coming from here. I had just assumed that you had access to ebay. I hadn't even considered that you didn't live in the states.




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I find it very easy to overdub new parts direct to computer at home after I've done the basic tracking with VF at our band's rehearsal space.
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How can it be easier to have to setup midi sync, than it would be just to record straight to the VF? I understand what you are saying about finding creative ways to use equipment, but this seems like it would be of no real benefit, and seems that it would be harder and more complicated than simply hooking a mic up to the VF and recording dubbing your vocals. I still don't see how what your doing is necessary or easier.





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And compared to the total time one spends mixing and editing a multitrack recording the ten minutes that it takes to transfer 16 tracks of a five minute song in two passes using ADAT has no relevance what so ever and given the benefits of adat that you simpy cannot have with scsi I still encourage VF users to explore those benefits.
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WHAT BENEFITS? You have shown me ZERO benefits that adat gives you over SCSI, yet I have shown you numerous advantage that the scsi has over adat. You have shown that you can do what most people would consider meaningless and even more complicated. What real need is there for you to tack live to the computer when you can track to your VF? It's harder, not easier. You have to sync the two platforms, and all you need do is record straight to the VF. The adat route cannot possibly be easier.


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Maybe I have bad memory or something but I don't recall having said that the adat way is THE ONLY WAY of transferring tracks to computer. What I do recall saying is that if you wan to take the computer/vf combo to the limit you need to use adat.
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Yet, you have given no examples of this at all. What i reacll saying that is the threads you were speaking in were talking about getting recorded tracks on the VF over to the computer for editing and burning, not about people wanting to use the VF as a mixer. When it comes to transfering recorded tracks over to the computer for editing, then SCSI has it all over the adat option. It's not even close.


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Speaking about backups IMHO it's better to get a new HD and use the used one as backup whet it fills up than to start burning CDR or using Jaz disks for that. The HDs are much more reliable than CDRs and backing up one 20GB HD takes 30 CDRs.

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Again, i have to disagree here. No way would i want to be taking the drive out of my VF whenever i want to work on an older stored project. I have 40 gigs of space on my computer. A single 16 track VF format program file should be around a gig or less. The 5 tracks program file I have backed up is 186 megs. So, I would say 16 tracks would be around 800-900 megs. I can't ever see me having more than 7 or 8 VF format song files that would need to be stored for later work. My computer hard drive space is plenty big enough to store all the backups that I would ever need. I could even grab a 40 drive for around 50 bucks, install it to my computer, and I would have all the storage for song files that i would ever need, and the Jaz drives could load them and save them at at will, as fast as a normal hard drive. So, again, I believe the SCSI Jaz dive is the way to go.

Jeff

 

[teainthesahara]

May I point out that where I live the Jaz drive nor any other scsi device has never been a big thing and therefore they are simply not available at those prices you mentioned.....

Speaking about backups IMHO it's better to get a new HD and use the used one as backup whet it fills up than to start burning CDR or using Jaz disks for that. The HDs are much more reliable than CDRs and backing up one 20GB HD takes 30 CDRs.

Hi Pete,
Yup, I can definitely relate to the paucity of SCSI peripheral distribution! In Canada, you can walk to any of the dozen computer/electronic stores in your city, and find a million pieces of hardware that does mostly everything a SCSI peripheral would do - but cheaper!!!! Often, your left with online/mail order sources, and depending on where you live, that can get expensive enough to make SCSI undesirable. Fortunately for me, alot of ebay sellars that sell this stuff are based out of Toronto=cheap shipping/handling cost's!

About back-up options - if all your material is stored on 1 single HD that you have taken out, and then you replaced the HD in the VF with another to record new stuff - you have NOT 'backed-up' your material at all! Backing up implies a duplicate copy incase the original goes bye-bye! In that light, I don't think it's a HD Vs. CD thing - you can have the best of both worlds by utilizing both...

T

 

[teainthesahara]

Hey Jeff - just some more SCSI info for ya that i've learned while using the JAZ stuff...

1 - you can move 24 tracks/wav files at a time with the jaz; the VF will give you the option of saving all tracks, including 17-24, at once.

2 - the SCSI-parallel port adapter will give you easy access to other PC's providing they also have a floppy drive; but it will not be fast, but very, very, very slow. The SCSI-USBv.1 adapter is much faster and hot swappable, but about 2x the price. If you anticipate working with Laptops; the SCSI-PCMCIA adapter is even faster that the USB adapter, and costs less or the same as the parallel port adapter on ebay.

3 - The CDRW with your machine - i dont know if i'd ditch that - it's an easy solution for fast back-ups and getting mixdowns on a CDR quickly - that is invaluable for doing fast evaluations/critical listening of your mixes on other systems while in the process of mixing...

T

 

[PeteHalo]

While tracking directly to PC using VF as analog front end you don't have to mess with any midi sync stuff. Just plug in the sound source to VF analog input and select that track for input and after that the signal goes straight thru the adat light pipe to the corresponding input channel of the sound card that you can record in your software. That involves hitting a few but less than ten buttons on VF. How much easier should that be for you? Let's see what steps are needed for this using scsi. First you have to transfer tracks from computer to VF if the song is not on VF already. That takes a minute I believe. Then you set the VF to record the new track and do the recording. After that you back that new track up to Jaz drive and take it over to computer. Then you upload it into the multitrack software as wav file which takes a few seconds at least. If that's easier that pressing a few buttons then I admit that I'm seriously mistaken here.

Why is that you rather rely on the hd in your computer to store your data that the same kind of HD in your VF? I would think that the probability of messing up the HD in computer is much greater than messing up the one in VF and if you use old leftover HDs from PCs that I believe cost next to nothing over there then you wouldn't have to put all your eggs in to the same basket and it would be an environmentally wise thing to do also.

But I think there might be at least one important thing that we can agreed on and that's Fostex has made one helluva recording machine.

 

[JR#97]

I use both SCSI Jaz and ADAT transfer both with good results. I tend to use the Jaz primarily for back-up, though. Less un-plugging and moving shit around if I use the ADAT optical for transferring tracks. Plus, the beauty of using the ADAT optical, is getting tracks FROM the PC into the Fostex. or playing back tracks from the PC in sync with the Fostex. These can be midi, gigasampler tracks, Acid loops, .wav, .mp3, whatever.

If I had to choose only one method, I'd opt for the ADAT card. And you can find them for much cheaper than a used Jaz and a disk. Korg 1212 i/o's on ebay are less than $100. Look hard enough and you can find cards by Creamware, Sonorus, Frontier, etc. for a good price. I found my Terratec EWS88D for $100. Brand new, the Event EZ8 is under $200. The ADAT Edit cards are really cheap, but I haven't heard much good about them. Same with the Lexicon Core.

A better option to the Jaz is the Orb. 2 gigs, cheaper, more reliable, and faster. I've found the Jaz drives too slow to use as working drives. They're fine for back-ups and storage, though.

 

[jeff0633]

While tracking directly to PC using VF as analog front end you don't have to mess with any midi sync stuff. Just plug in the sound source to VF analog input and select that track for input and after that the signal goes straight thru the adat light pipe to the corresponding input channel of the sound card that you can record in your software.
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So, you are using the VF as a simple mic preamp? This hardly seems worthy of this machine. Mine sounds far better than recording straight to my 24 bit Echo mia card.




That involves hitting a few but less than ten buttons on VF. How much easier should that be for you?
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My VF sounds far better than any recording card I have ever had. Again, why not just use a cheap mic preamp? that would sound better than the VF preamps?

> Let's see what steps are needed for this using scsi. First you have to transfer tracks from computer to VF if the song is not on VF already.
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Mine are already on VF. I transfer once for editing and burning.



That takes a minute I believe. Then you set the VF to record the new track and do the recording. After that you back that new track up to Jaz drive and take it over to computer. Then you upload it into the multitrack software as wav file which takes a few seconds at least. If that's easier that pressing a few buttons then I admit that I'm seriously mistaken here.
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But your adding unecessary steps. why record to the computer to start with?

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Why is that you rather rely on the hd in your computer to store your data that the same kind of HD in your VF? I would think that the probability of messing up the HD in computer is much greater than messing up the one in VF and if you use old leftover HDs from PCs that I believe cost next to nothing over there then you wouldn't have to put all your eggs in to the same basket and it would be an environmentally wise thing to do also.

Yeah, but having to open up the VF and do surgery every time you want to get an old project back up for some work? That's extreem. A second hard drive in a computer is no problem at all. I have never had a hard drive in my computer go bad. For that matter, I could simply back them up on CD, that's the best way to make sure their safe. Like I said, I would not see me having more than 7 or 8 backed up projects that I might want to work on in the future.


But I think there might be at least one important thing that we can agreed on and that's Fostex has made one helluva recording machine.

yes, i agree, this is one awesome machine. After many bad purchases in the past, I have finally got the right recorder, for now, and for the future.

 

[jeff0633]

I use both SCSI Jaz and ADAT transfer both with good results. I tend to use the Jaz primarily for back-up, though. Less un-plugging and moving shit around if I use the ADAT optical for transferring tracks.
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That's why i purchased two drives. An internal Jaz for the computer, and an external one for he VF. Now, all I have to do is pop the disk into one or the other. SUPER FAST!! I paid 60 bucks for both, and 20 for 3 1-gig disks.




Plus, the beauty of using the ADAT optical, is getting tracks FROM the PC into the Fostex. or playing back tracks from the PC in sync with the Fostex. These can be midi, gigasampler tracks, Acid loops, .wav, .mp3, whatever.
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When I use wavs, or Acid, I would rather render it to a wav file, and then edit it first on Cooledit, then simply take the wav by Jaz over to the VF.



If I had to choose only one method, I'd opt for the ADAT card. And you can find them for much cheaper than a used Jaz and a disk.
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Wow, I sure saw none on ebay, but I was looking for the Terretec card. Like I said, I got two jaz drives and three disks for around 80 bucks. But the sync, and only 8 tracks at once is a limit that the SCSI doesn't have.



> Korg 1212 i/o's on ebay are less than $100.

I found one that has a "buy it now" price of $125. Reserve will probably be around 100. Good price, but still more than I paid for two jaz drives and three disks.

>Look hard enough and you can find cards by Creamware, >Sonorus, Frontier, etc. for a good price. I found my Terratec >EWS88D for $100.

None of these others right now on ebay that I can find. maybe the search words were not correct.



Brand new, the Event EZ8 is under $200. The ADAT Edit cards are really cheap, but I haven't heard much good about them. Same with the Lexicon Core.
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I used to own the core 2, and thought it was pretty cool, but it was too problematic. Good effects, though.


A better option to the Jaz is the Orb. 2 gigs, cheaper, more reliable, and faster.
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Now this is interesting. I had heard about something called the MO, but I never looked for the orb. Looking at one on ebay, it looks real nice. This is another reason to go SCSI in my book.


>I've found the Jaz drives too slow to use as working drives. Did you have a bottleneck with your scsi card on the computer, or were you going through a printer port, which is slower? My mom has an internal jazz hooked to a fast ultra scsi card and I can see little difference in the speed of that and her normal hard drive.

From what I have heard, they are 5,400 speed, and have seek times around 10 or something. Are they not close in speed to other 5,400 RMP drives?
Maybe the orb is king in the scsi realm. They really sound even better than the Jazz, and I also saw an internal model. So, I think anyone can do the same thing with the orb drives. Buy an internal and an external.

Anyway, I love the VF for all these options. What a machine.

Jeff

 

[JR#97]

I was just giving a counter point. Have you actually ever used an ADAT connection between a PC and your Fostex? Each method has it's strengths and weaknesses. So why not go both? For example, rendering in Acid and then transferring to the Fostex seems like a waste of a track or two on the Fostex. And then what if you want to change something? Back to Acid it goes and rendering all over again? Why not make the PC an extension of the Fostex instead of something completely seperate? What about midi tracks?

Personally, I think the pros of an ADAT connection greatly outweigh the cons. Mainly because of the versatility. Granted... you might not ever need those advantages, but at least they will always be there.

I will say that if I hadn't already had a jaz drive, I probably would have picked one up or something similar. But only after I was set-up with an ADAT card.

 

[jeff0633]

>

.>I was just giving a counter point.

No problem with that. I enjoy the conversation.



>Have you actually ever used an ADAT connection between a PC and your Fostex?

No, but I don't need to in order to understand its strengths and weak points. For instance, I don't need to use one to know that after transfering 8 tracks in sync, that I need then hook a midi cable up and set software and the Fostex to sync so that my next tracks will be in sync with the first 8. that's a huge disadvantage compared to the SCSI route. So is being forced to record in real time, and so is the fact that you can't use adat to store VF format song files too.

> Each method has it's strengths and weaknesses. So why not go both?

heck, it would be nice to be able to have all options. I agree. The problem is, I read posts where people were mainly interested in sending pre-recorded tracks from the VF to the computer for editing and burning. I almost spent twice the money on a Wavecenter card, but thak goodness that I did some research. In the realm of simply transfering recorded tracks to the PC from the VF, SCSI walks all over the adat connection, price, speed, storage, and portability. So, I agree, it would be great to have all the options, but when people come here looking for specific advice about simply being able to move recorded tracks off the VF to the computer for editing and burning, I think they should have all the facts concerning that situation, so that they won't go out and spend $150 bucks, only to find out later that there was a better way to do that specific tasks, and do it cheaper as well.

> For example, rendering in Acid and then transferring to the Fostex seems like a waste of a track or two on the Fostex.

Wll, I have never recorded any song with more than about 11-or 12 tracks. 16 tracks is no limitation for me, but I guess it might be for some people.


>And then what if you want to change something? Back to Acid it goes and rendering all over again? Why not make the PC an extension of the Fostex instead of something completely seperate? What about midi tracks?

The thing i don't like about doing it that way, is that your tracks on the computer are stuck using different effects and such that are on the computer. I have tried this way of recording, and hated it. I wanted to mix a little reverb on my drum track that was on the compute, but I wanted to use the same reverb that was on the recorder, so that I could match the sounds with the reverb the other tracks were using. I lost all control because the panning and such was on another system. I much prefer to have all my music on one machine, using the same effects, the same pan knobs, and everything. I do understand what you are saying, though. Some people might enjoy it the other way. I can't see too many people here being limited by 16 tracks, though. As far as midi, well, you can sync up midi without an adat card anyway. I don't use it much, and when i do, I run it from the computer to my keyboard, and then record it to the VF. I don't need to keep the midi tracks as midi. Like I said, 16 tracks is no limitation to me at all. But like i said, some people might enjoy many more tracks because of all the tracks on the computer. But really, they can be synced without adat, and you could get a multi imput recording card for the computer and do this as well.





>Personally, I think the pros of an ADAT connection greatly outweigh the cons. Mainly because of the versatility. Granted... you might not ever need those advantages, but at least they will always be there.


If I can find one of the cheaper ones you are talking about, then I just might grab one if the situation is right.


>I will say that if I hadn't already had a jaz drive, I probably would have picked one up or something similar. But only after I was set-up with an ADAT card.

Well, I stand by my statement that as far as actually transferring recorded tracks over to the PC for burning and editing, nothing comes close to the SCSI way of doing it. faster transfer, 16 synced tracks, cheap drives and media, portability.... I am glad i went ScSI first, and i would bet that the great majoriy of VF owners are mainly interested in getting recorded tracks over to the PC for editing and burning. Midi stuff would be great with the adat, however, and I just might pick one up in the future. maybe I will sell my built-in cd burner.

Jeff

 

[PeteHalo]

The most efficient way of working with computer and VF is to use the VF for basic tracking and as analog front end and mixing and editing on computer. But nothing prevents you from using those less than stellar quality effects of VF for the tracks that you playback from computer thru adat if that's what you want to do. In fact the adat interface looks like 4 independent stereo or 8 mono output busses or any combination of stereo and mono that adds up to 8 channels to the software and you can apply VF's effects for each of the busses independently just like you do with tracks played back from VF's HD.

The midi sync is nothing more that setting a couple of parameters in your software and in vf and plugging in midi cable so you're making it sound much more complicated as it really is.

Why are you so worried about people spending $150 for the adat card that gives them undeniable additional value for their money? Compared to the TCO of a home studio the $150 is peanuts. A multichannel soundcard you advice people to get costs much more than this and you still need a mic preamp or mixer for mic level signals. In VF you have it all and why not use it if it's there?

The arguments you're using against adat clearly shows that you're not aware of the full potential of VF nor have ever used the adat and this ignorance is what I'm fighting against here. All of the sudden you take your personal way of using the VF as the way most people would want to use it and maybe that's the case but only because of the lack of knowlwdge. But I'm almost postive that most of the people want to get the maximum performance and bang for their buck if they are shown the way to do it. As I've said many times before I'm not telling people not to use the scsi way but that's not the way to get the most of VF.

 

[JR#97]

The thing i don't like about doing it that way, is that your tracks on the computer are stuck using different effects and such that are on the computer. I have tried this way of recording, and hated it. I wanted to mix a little reverb on my drum track that was on the compute, but I wanted to use the same reverb that was on the recorder, so that I could match the sounds with the reverb the other tracks were using. I lost all control because the panning and such was on another system. I much prefer to have all my music on one machine, using the same effects, the same pan knobs, and everything. I do understand what you are saying, though. Some people might enjoy it the other way. I can't see too many people here being limited by 16 tracks, though. As far as midi, well, you can sync up midi without an adat card anyway. I don't use it much, and when i do, I run it from the computer to my keyboard, and then record it to the VF. I don't need to keep the midi tracks as midi. Like I said, 16 tracks is no limitation to me at all. But like i said, some people might enjoy many more tracks because of all the tracks on the computer. But really, they can be synced without adat, and you could get a multi imput recording card for the computer and do this as well.

Jeff

What software have you used? And you lost all control? That's the beauty of PC editing/mixing is the addition of more control. Granted, the best software isn't cheap, so it's not exactly fair to throw that into the equation, but I can think of 3 or 4 software packages that blow the doors off the VF way of editing/mixing and especially FX. But I'll also digress that the topic isn't PC DAW vs. Fostex.

I'll also have to disagree with you that most people want to just transfer tracks to the PC for just editing and CD burning. From what I've see and you can check the archives here, is that most people are interested in getting the full advantage of INTEGRATING their Fostex with the PC.

After doing some research, it looks like the Jaz is a discontinued item. So prices will really start falling... but so will support. And keep in mind.. a used Jaz is just that.. used. Mileage may vary.

Another thing you've neglected to mention is the SCSI card. Brand new, a jaz ultrajet pci is about $120. You can find them used for cheaper. There are obviosly other scsi cards out there as well, but it is an additional cost. going the parallell adapter is ok, I guess. Sort of defeats the speed of SCSI though. Be sure to check out the jaz firewire-scsi adapters they have out now.

Just fyi, I think the reason you're getting some strong responses is because you keep making the bold claim that "nothing comes close to the SCSI way of doing it". Especially since you've admitted to having no ADAT experience and what appears to be an unsatisfactory PC experience. There are lots of things that come close. Orb blows the doors of the Jaz in price and performance. CD-R comes close and the price per medium is a clear CD-R advantage. SCSI zip 250 comes close as long as you watch storage space usage... I've been able to back-up 24 tracks 4:00 song to a single SCSI zip 250. Plus as a back-up, you can span a project across multiple zip disks. Dont' get me wrong, the Jaz route is a good route and I'm glad you spelled out all of the advantages in clear detail. But why be so bold about your claims and argumentative in your approach?

 

[teainthesahara]

...and this ignorance is what I'm fighting against here. All of the sudden you take your personal way of using the VF as the way most people would want to use it and maybe that's the case but only because of the lack of knowlwdge....
________________
Pete, with all respect, do you realize that this also describes yourself?
And my old question stands; Do you really think people make those choices entirely from lack of knowledge? Where did you get this impression???


But I'm almost postive that most of the people want to get the maximum performance and bang for their buck if they are shown the way to do it. As I've said many times before I'm not telling people not to use the scsi way but that's not the way to get the most of VF.

Again, with all due respect, it is YOUR BIAS and yours alone that contributes to your opinion! But realize that this does not necessarily translate into reality for everyone! And yes, I've seen examples of where you explicitly or in some other way diminish other solutions and reccommend ADAT without having and significant info on that persons priorities or needs. Where is the balance there?

T

 

[jeff0633]

What software have you used?


Cool edit, Vegas, Cubase, Sonar.. I have synced my recorders in the past. I just found it a bothersome way of doing things. For instance, my midi cable from my computer has three places it can go. It can go to my drum machine, it can go to my Keyboard, or to my VF. I realize that I can buy extra midi cables and connect all three permenently. but I don't usually use midi for anything besides drums. I use Band in a box occasionally to build drum tracks.



>And you lost all control? That's the beauty of PC editing/mixing is the addition of more control.

Not really lost all control, but maybe had more control than needed. I like to mix with real faders, on my recorder. What I love using the PC for is to make edits to a wav file, in cooledit. Nothing like highlighting a section of wav with the mouse and cutting and pasting.

> Granted, the best software isn't cheap, so it's not exactly fair to throw that into the equation, but I can think of 3 or 4 software packages that blow the doors off the VF way of editing/mixing and especially FX. But I'll also digress that the topic isn't PC DAW vs. Fostex.

Hmm, I have heard that many don't like the VF effects, but so far, I like them fine. I have owned a Lexicon MPX 100, and didn't like it at all. I posted the first five tracks of my first attempt with the Fostex on my site. I had this put down after about three hours of getting the machine. I have owned in the past, the VS890, the VS840GX, the Tascam 788, The Yamaha MD8 minidisc, and the BR8. The reverb on the Fostex sounds as good or better to me than any of these machines.

Here is a link to the mixed tracks of this first song. I haven't added vocals yet, but I was showing a family member what it sounded like (He just got an MR8)

I think it is by far better than anything I have ever recorded on the PC. I used my SP C1 mic to mic my cheap Ovation acoustic, and my cheap little practice amp for the guitars. The drums are from Acid, and the loops are from Mick Fleetwood drum CD (nice to have Mick playing in my band, ha ha) I put together the drum track first in acid, basically writing the song as I made the drum track. So, in my situation, I simply have no need of an adat card, and if I need to fix or edit a track or tracks, SCSI is by far the fastest way of doing that, and an option that gives me so many more benefits.


>I'll also have to disagree with you that most people want to just transfer tracks to the PC for just editing and CD burning. From what I've see and you can check the archives here, is that most people are interested in getting the full advantage of INTEGRATING their Fostex with the PC.

Hmm, That's not what I have been seeing. I have seen people asking: what's the best way to archive programs for further work later?, and I believe SCSI to be the best there, Adat can't even do it at all. When I first joined this group, I did go through and read hundreds of postings. It seemed that no one ever spelled out the advantges and disadvantages of all ways of doing things, and that's why I started this thread. Maybe there needs to be a faq that spells out all these things. I certainly never saw anyone that championed adat informing others that you could move recorded tracks to the PC 24 at a time, all in sync, and as fast as moving files from one drive to another, or that SCSI would allow you to backup Fostex format songs that could be loaded and worked on later. Those are the facts that I am trying to get out there. Those facts were not being stated, and they will make a lot of difference to folks like me, who think that 24 tracks on the Fostex is enough, and who use a drum machine for drums, and who simply want to edit wavs on the PC, then burn all their tracks to a CD on their computer.



>After doing some research, it looks like the Jaz is a discontinued item. So prices will really start falling... but so will support. And keep in mind.. a used Jaz is just that.. used. Mileage may vary.

At twenty bucks a replacement drive, that's no big deal. From what i hear, they are reliable.



>Another thing you've neglected to mention is the SCSI card. Brand new, a jaz ultrajet pci is about $120.

I got my internal SCsI PCI card along with my internal drive and cable for 25 bucks. Ebay has page after page of scsi cards for 20 bucks, dozens of them.

> You can find them used for cheaper. There are obviosly other scsi cards out there as well, but it is an additional cost. going the parallell adapter is ok, I guess. Sort of defeats the speed of SCSI though. Be sure to check out the jaz firewire-scsi adapters they have out now.

I saw some of those, but I have no experience with firewire. I will learn more about it.



>Just fyi, I think the reason you're getting some strong responses is because you keep making the bold claim that "nothing comes close to the SCSI way of doing it".


When it comes to transferring recorded tracks to the PC for editing and burning, that's a fact, not an opinion. It's faster, and can do 24 synced tracks at once, it is mobile, and probably cheaper. these things have nothing to do with opinion, these are facts, and they are facts that were not being told by those who champion the adat option for doing this specific task. Here is a quote from Pete, and it was this statement that led me to start this thread.

Pete:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to take advantage of all the features that a PC/VF combo can offer there's no substitute for ADAT. Sorry, guys but that's the fact no matter how you try to twist it. There's nothing and I mean nothing that you can do with scsi that you can't do using adat and a audio sequencer software
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This statement is simply false, and it might lead people down the wrong path for them. There ARE things that SCSI can do that adat can't. Backing up song files for later work is one, transferring 24 synced tracks at once is two, mobility is three, transfer speed is four.

That's the reason that I started this thread. I thought there needed to be a discussion about the options. If you are into midi, then yes, adat is cool. But when championing these different routes, the poster should do his best to give the actual facts. For people in my situation, of which I am sure there are many, SCSI holds a few meaningful advantages over ADAT. I am sure there are many VF owners who are happy with using the 16 tracks for recording on their VF's, If they make a mistake and need to edit a wav, they can transfer that wav, or multiple wavs to the PC for editing, and then move them right back to the VF. In this situation, SCSI wins hands down. After I finish my song, and want to move all 16 tracks over to the PC so that I can add some more effects, and to then save as a stereo wav and burn to CD, again, ScsI wins hands down. I can move all 24 tracks in one sweep, all in sync, and as fast as moving data from one drive to another. I purchased two drives, 20 meg per second scsi card, and all cables with three one gig disks for 80 bucks, and there are plenty more to be had.




> Especially since you've admitted to having no ADAT experience and what appears to be an unsatisfactory PC experience.

I have had good PC experiences for things that I really need, like editing wav files and burning audio CD's. For what midi I use, also no problems.

>There are lots of things that come close. Orb blows the doors of the Jaz in price and performance.

That's fine. It's still SCSI, which makes my stance even stronger.

> CD-R comes close and the price per medium is a clear CD-R advantage.

I don't agree here, and neither does the Fostex manual. My built in burner on the VF takes a long time to write wav files, and if you are using CDR, you can't use it again. I paid 18 bucks for three gigs of Jaz disks, and I will use them hundreds of times for transferring files, and storing song files, and I can keep adding them for 10 bucks a pop.

>SCSI zip 250 comes close as long as you watch storage space usage... I've been able to back-up 24 tracks 4:00 song to a single SCSI zip 250. Plus as a back-up, you can span a project across multiple zip disks. Dont' get me wrong, the Jaz route is a good route and I'm glad you spelled out all of the advantages in clear detail. But why be so bold about your claims and argumentative in your approach?

My claims, as above, are facts. And, I am not the one who has been argumentative. Clearly, in my last post, I said that for midi, the adat is cool, and for folks who need more than 16 tracks, it would be cool. Those that I am debating with seem to have a problem facing the fact that SCSI can do numerous other things better than adat, (such as the quote above). I haven't heard once anyone on the adat side admit that, yes, 24 tracks, syned at once, is better than what the adat can do. I have not heard one say that yes, scsi is faster, not like transferring in real time....

If I can find one of the cheaper adat cards that have been mentioned, I would like to have one, so that all options will be covered. My main point in this thread was to spell out the advantages of the SCSI route when it comes to those VF users who don't have a cd burner in their VF's, and they want to get all their synced tracks over to their computers for editing and burning. By some of the "argumentative" responses from adat users, I have done that quite well.

Have a good day.

Jeff

 

[JR#97]

My claims, as above, are facts. And, I am not the one who has been argumentative. Clearly, in my last post, I said that for midi, the adat is cool, and for folks who need more than 16 tracks, it would be cool. Those that I am debating with seem to have a problem facing the fact that SCSI can do numerous other things better than adat, (such as the quote above). I haven't heard once anyone on the adat side admit that, yes, 24 tracks, syned at once, is better than what the adat can do. I have not heard one say that yes, scsi is faster, not like transferring in real time....

If I can find one of the cheaper adat cards that have been mentioned, I would like to have one, so that all options will be covered. My main point in this thread was to spell out the advantages of the SCSI route when it comes to those VF users who don't have a cd burner in their VF's, and they want to get all their synced tracks over to their computers for editing and burning. By some of the "argumentative" responses from adat users, I have done that quite well.

Have a good day.

Jeff

Well, I wasn't trying to debate with you. I think both methods have their merit and I use both methods depending on what I"m doing. I was just trying to show where the ADAT option is just as viable depending on what you're looking for. You and Pete can fight each other all ya want. I'm gonna go play hockey and fight someone else for equally or more absurd reasons.

btw.. how is band in a box? I use jammer and it's pretty cool, but it's a bit cumbersome sometimes. I sold my drum machine because I wanted the vm200 more and now I'm kicking myself. I'll be sure to check out your tunes.

 

[JR#97]

Jeff.. killer tune. How much was that drum track CD? wanna be a pal? lol

what kind of amp? did you run your ovation into it? onboard amp emulation or fx box or amp overdrive? phaser effect from where? nice chops and playing. I get sick of hearing 12 bar blues, but that was sweet.