Time Signatures...

[bigwillz24]

Okay I already feel like a total jackass for having to ask this.

But when your listening to a song how do you tell what time signature it is in?

I always count 1, 2, 3, 4 and say that's one bar or one measure and I believe that is 4/4 time but what about 3/4 or 4/8 shit I've confused myself already.

 

[bennychico11]

most modern pop music has 4/4 time now. Every once and awhile you'll get some 3/4 time...and rarely it seems you'll hear musicians stray from that. Tool is still one of my most favorite bands that does.

basically you have to feel the measures/beats and know what they're playing. However, by definition the top number in the time signature denotes how many beats are in the measure...and the bottom number means which note is considered one beat.
So in 4/4 there are 4 beats in a measure and the quarter note gets one beat.
In 3/4 there are 3 beats in a measure and the quarter note gets the beat.
In 6/8 there are 6 beats in a measure and the eighth note gets the beat.

Deciding between 6/8 and 3/4 can be confusing as 6/8 is just a multiple of 3/4 (divide the fraction 6/8 by 2 and you get 3/4). In other words, it's sometimes hard to know if the meter is 6/8 or a fast 3/4. As you could be feeling two bars of 1-2-3, 1-2-3....when actually those beats you were counting are just eighth notes in a single 6/8 bar and it's really 1-2-3-4-5-6
This is when I like to try and get a feel of the rhythm they are actually playing throughout the song as well as when the chord changes are being hit. This is actually the reason it was put in 6/8 and not 3/4 so that the feel would be different. In 6/8 the eighth notes become more of a set of triplets instead.

4/8 I've never seen as you would just probably write it in 2/4...which you'll probably only see for marches or polkas.

And trust me, it can get much much more confusing than that.

 

[bigwillz24]

It can? I'm still confused.

 

[gordone]

4/4 = four beats per measure, and a quarter note gets one beat.
3/4 = three beats per measure, and a quarter note gets one beat.
6/8 = six beats per measure, and an eighth note gets one beat.

So x/n -> x beats per measure, and an "n-th" note gets one beat.

 

[rayc]

If the previous post leaves you cold & you really can't feel the diff go techno & play your drum machine beside it a) till you get the speed & b) until you get a matching rhythm.
OR LISTEN for the ONE and count on until the next ONE.
Oh & a time signature is something Dr Who leaves behind.

 

[crankypants]

4/4 = four beats per measure, and a quarter note gets one beat.
3/4 = three beats per measure, and a quarter note gets one beat.
6/8 = six beats per measure, and an eighth note gets one beat.

So x/n -> x beats per measure, and an "n-th" note gets one beat.

I thought I had read that 6/8 is a bit different because it's a compound time signature. It's really two groupings of 3 eighth notes and feels like there are 2 beats to a measure. But maybe that's not always true, I don't know.

I listen to a lot of stuff with weird time signatures and the way I tell is just by listening for the dominant pulse or tempo of a particular musical passage. When the idea or melody sounds like it's at it's beginning, that's when I start counting. When it begins to repeat that's when I know I'm back to the first beat again.

Go buy a Flower Kings album, crank it up and start counting...


CP

 

[bennychico11]

I thought I had read that 6/8 is a bit different because it's a compound time signature. It's really two groupings of 3 eighth notes and feels like there are 2 beats to a measure. But maybe that's not always true, I don't know.

yes, you'll see I mentioned that above. It can be very easy for people new to time signatures to confuse 6/8 with 3/4. The time signature has everything to do with the feel of the music itself which is why certain styles (rock, waltz, samba, bossa nova, etc.) all seem to use the same time signatures every time.

 

[XLR]

But when your listening to a song how do you tell what time signature it is in?

I always count 1, 2, 3, 4 and say that's one bar or one measure and I believe that is 4/4 time but what about 3/4 or 4/8 shit I've confused myself already.

We feel things rhythmically in groups of twos and groups of threes. Everything else is just an elaboration of that. Meter signatures confuse a lot of people since they look like fractions.

Ignore this if you already know it... in a meter signature the top number tells you the number of beats per measure... the bottom number tells you what shape of note on the page you're counting that many of in each measure.

Unfortunately the names we use for rhythmic note values.... half note, quarter note, etc., are illogical, and that makes it all the more confusing. A quarter note is a note with a certain written shape on the page, and in 4/4 time it takes up literally a quarter of a measure. But in 3/4 time it takes up a third of a measure. And in 3/8 time it's two thirds of a measure. So the terminology is designed to make you crazy. But it all just boils down to feeling duple meter and triple meter. Meters in 5, 7, etc are just combinations. And the meter you choose to write something out in has a big effect on how the note groupings look, so if you’re writing something with lots of fast long strings of notes you might choose a different meter than if it’s slow and spacious rhythmically.

Tim

 

[RAK]

I thought I had read that 6/8 is a bit different because it's a compound time signature. It's really two groupings of 3 eighth notes and feels like there are 2 beats to a measure. But maybe that's not always true, I don't know.

It's actually not always true. A 6/8 measure has 6 eighth notes in it, but you can group them however you want. While a song might have a feeling of two groups of 3 eigth notes, another song might have a feeling of 3 groups of 2 eight notes.

 

[dementedchord]

But it all just boils down to feeling duple meter and triple meter. Meters in 5, 7, etc are just combinations. Tim

while on the one hand it may not be a bad way of explaining to someone who doen't know anything... it's really NOT true and to think of it this way would lead you to perform things in a manner not intended by the composer in most cases... it works kinda for a swing feel like on "take five" but if you tried to do that in say "mars" from "the planets" youl'd be fuct...

 

[crankypants]

yes, you'll see I mentioned that above. It can be very easy for people new to time signatures to confuse 6/8 with 3/4. The time signature has everything to do with the feel of the music itself which is why certain styles (rock, waltz, samba, bossa nova, etc.) all seem to use the same time signatures every time.

Now that I read it again - yes, you did mention it. And I take your point about the traditional styles you mentioned, but couldn't you do something in, say, a samba style and put it in 7/8? Maybe then it's only "samba-esque"?


CP

 

[Dumby]

BigWillz24

Now that I read it again - yes, you did mention it. And I take your point about the traditional styles you mentioned, but couldn't you do something in, say, a samba style and put it in 7/8? Maybe then it's only "samba-esque"?


CP

If I recall well, listen and look up the sheet music to Soundgardens Fell on Black Days...I think that's an example of a 7/8 time signature and when you tap it on your lap you'll see it's not as confusing as you would think.

 

[crankypants]

It's actually not always true. A 6/8 measure has 6 eighth notes in it, but you can group them however you want. While a song might have a feeling of two groups of 3 eigth notes, another song might have a feeling of 3 groups of 2 eight notes.

Interesting. I was actually thinking about that possibility even as I typed that. Sometimes I wonder if written music can only ever be an imperfect representation of that which it refers to. Or maybe I just say that because my reading skills suck.

CP

 

[RAK]

Interesting. I was actually thinking about that possibility even as I typed that. Sometimes I wonder if written music can only ever be an imperfect representation of that which it refers to. Or maybe I just say that because my reading skills suck.

CP

The counting should just reflect the way the music sounds. If a composer writes something in 7/8 time, with three groupings: 3+2+2, that's because that's because that's how they want it to feel. Counting 2+3+2 for example, may change the style of the song. But then again, you can also count two 7/8 measures as one 7/4 measure, if you want to.
Take something like Pat Metheny's First Circle. It's in 22/8, broken up into alternating measures of 12/8+10/8. But I find it's easier to count it in 6/4+5/4. Either way, the style of the song is the same.

 

[XLR]

while on the one hand it may not be a bad way of explaining to someone who doen't know anything... it's really NOT true and to think of it this way would lead you to perform things in a manner not intended by the composer in most cases... it works kinda for a swing feel like on "take five" but if you tried to do that in say "mars" from "the planets" youl'd be fuct...

Hmmm... I'm not referring to application of accents, but to the way we sense metric groupings in keeping track of them. If I count in 5 when playing, trying to convey only the grouping of 5, I still feel a subtle subgrouping of 3+2 or 2+3. Same with beat subdivisions... if I perform flamenco rasgueados with 5 strums per beat, I feel the same type of subtle subdivision even though they're very fast and the subdivision isn't conveyed to a listener.

My experience with other musicians and students has led me to think that most others sense rhythm and meter in a similar way to this.

Tim

 

[bennychico11]

couldn't you do something in, say, a samba style and put it in 7/8? Maybe then it's only "samba-esque"?

of course. there are never any hard set rules for which time signatures are to be used for which style. There are just certain ones you will find over and over again in that style. But there will always be composers who like to break the boundaries. More modern classical composers love to throw in a section that may be reminiscent of another common style but will write it in an odd time signature. Musicals are another example of that. It keeps things interesting in my opinion.

If a composer writes something in 7/8 time, with three groupings: 3+2+2, that's because that's because that's how they want it to feel.

exactly. In fact you'll even see some composers use time signatures that denote this....in the above example it may be written (3+2+2)/8.
While this just means 7/8 time, the musician knows where the emphasis is on the beats.

 

[fraserhutch]

I personally have never run across any music that groups 6/8 as 3 groups of two as the dominant pulse. It can be PLAYED that way, which will change the feel, but every 6/8 meter I have seen has always been in 2 groups of three, and as best I recall, that is pretty much the definition for 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8. If it were 3 groups of two, it should be 3/4.

It's actually not always true. A 6/8 measure has 6 eighth notes in it, but you can group them however you want. While a song might have a feeling of two groups of 3 eigth notes, another song might have a feeling of 3 groups of 2 eight notes.

 

[RAK]

I personally have never run across any music that groups 6/8 as 3 groups of two as the dominant pulse. It can be PLAYED that way, which will change the feel, but every 6/8 meter I have seen has always been in 2 groups of three, and as best I recall, that is pretty much the definition for 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8. If it were 3 groups of two, it should be 3/4.

There is no "definition" for 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 They're just eight notes, you can group them however you want. I've come across plenty of 6/8 meters that are written in groupings other than 3+3. Something like America from West Side Story, I forget how Bernstein actually wrote it, if he did 2 bars of 6/8, or one bar of 6/8, one bar of 3/4. Either way I wouldn't say one is more correct over the other.

 

[mshilarious]

There is no "definition" for 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 They're just eight notes, you can group them however you want. I've come across plenty of 6/8 meters that are written in groupings other than 3+3. Something like America from West Side Story, I forget how Bernstein actually wrote it, if he did 2 bars of 6/8, or one bar of 6/8, one bar of 3/4. Either way I wouldn't say one is more correct over the other.

You are trying to teach the exception before the rule. Probably 95% or better of 6/8 is compound meter (especially in popular music), and it is taught that way in introductory music theory.

Now, to confuse matters for popular music, the "feel" of a shuffle-style beat can be dotted-eight in 4/4, or straight 12/8, or something in between . . . and how that is notated varies . . . of course, it usually doesn't start off as notation . . .

 

[fraserhutch]

There is a convention, which, in the end of it all, is really what constitues the rule. When you write a time signature, you are communicating the to artist how something is meant to be played.

In WSS, America is in two bars of 6/8 and 3/4, where the 6/8 is in 2 sets of 3, the 3/4 is 3 sets of two, exactly what I was referring to in the previous post.

I have played the score a number of times and I do not recall a 6/8 or 9/8 or 12/8 that works otherwise.

There is no "definition" for 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 They're just eight notes, you can group them however you want. I've come across plenty of 6/8 meters that are written in groupings other than 3+3. Something like America from West Side Story, I forget how Bernstein actually wrote it, if he did 2 bars of 6/8, or one bar of 6/8, one bar of 3/4. Either way I wouldn't say one is more correct over the other.