The truth about pres ??? Your comments please...

[tkingen]

Well, I'll chip in here with my experience. (And I'll just add my voice to those saying that song and arrangement and performance is always the main thing.)

When I made the jump from low- and mid-level pres up to my first really nice one, yes I did notice that the sound was subtly richer, but one of the most important changes, funnily enough, was something I'd previously considered an incredibly boring aspect of sound transduction -- noise floor. With that nice pre my noise floor dropped away to nothing. The noise on my mid-level pres wasn't the CPU noise coming through the large condensors -- it was self noise from the units themselves! Another point -- the increased frequency range that any high quality unit can bring you. Those two changes did more to help me understand what a good pre is all about than all the discussions in all the forums I've ever read. We can talk subtleties of texture all night long, but for me it was just the quality results from using quality tools that sold me. Simple stuff, but what an amazing difference.

Two cents.

Cheers all.

Which mid level pres did you have, and what did you upgrade to?

 

[Empty Planet]

Well, I suppose those things on the Mackie are pres, and I also have an SP VTB1 and a Meek VC1Qcs. The Meek actually does interesting things with background vox, which it seems to gel in an particular way, and the bass sound I can get with it is often just what I like. But it's not what I would call hi fi. What I finally decided to spend the big bucks on -- big in my terms, anyway - was a Tab-Funkenwerk V78m. Vox through that are heaven-sent.

But it's worth reiterating, because it happens to be true...the tune, arrangement, and performance is where the real action is. And getting a good sound is more about technique and knowing how to use the gear you have than anything else...it's just that with the nicer gear, it's easier to get where you're going.

Cheers.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Some of the best music of all time was recorded on crappy equipment.

Just curious what recordings you are referring to.

 

[Ben Logan]

I'm on a strictly "consumer level" budget. I started with a Mackie VLZ 1202. Then I moved up to a little FMR RNP. Now I've added an Electro Harmonix Tube Pre (less than 2 hundo).

The biggest difference I've noted in the preamp switches I've made has been with regard to the clarity that's maintained when STACKING tracks.

For single tracks, the Mackie sounded fine. When I stacked 'em up though, I'd always get this weird phasiness (no doubt attributed in part to the closet I record in, my amatuer mic placement, etc.).

Nonetheless, moving up to the FMR RNP, I noticed that my tracks maintained more focus even when I piled lots on top of one another. They'd take EQ better. When I panned a track left, I could HEAR it left. The individual tracks maintained more integrity in the mix.

But, listening to a single guitar track recorded by the RNP or EHX pre, and comparing that with a single Mackie tracked guitar riff, I doubt I'd hear much, if any difference.

It's all about maintenance of sonic integrity in the mix, from my humble perspective.

 

[tkingen]

When you do a head to head comparison of a low end converter and a high end converter, the low end converter will sound like it has a hazy cloud over the sonic image, to use a visual term. It's kind of like putting the sound through a very cheap EQ; details are not as crisp sounding and there may even be a part of the frequency range that is either lacking or over-emphasized. It makes it very hard to create a translatable mix because you are not mixing against a flat palette.

Usually this is not an issue with the converter chips themselves but the surrounding implementation of the circuit. In fact, many of the tracks I recorded with my M-Audio card, 24/96, sounded much better when I played them back through higher end converters. This indicates that the AD was pretty good on the M-Audio but the DA or clock on the card was sub-par.

Understood. I monitor through a Delta1010 by routing analog through the breakout box or s/pdif through a Presonus Central Station. The CS DA convertors offer a clearer resolution during playback and the Delta DA convertors sound woolier with less focus. Smearing is a good word for it.
Thanks

 

[philboy]

Thanks evryone for all your replies. I read all the posts very carefully and it was very instructive. I agree that good instruments and performance is the first key to get a great recording. This is always my first concern when recording (along with mic placement and choice)

The next step for me will be to treat my room. It does reflect bass too much...There is a large window between my speakers so this is my biggest problem i must admit (especially at higher SPL)... Once this is done i'll see how much this improve the sound with the actual gear i have and i'll let you know. As for the preamps, a friend and i are planning to go to a rent shop in a near future and try a few hi-end products (pres and if possible a better soundcard) for a few days, record various tracks, and compare.

As for my actual pres, don't get me wrong they all are good. As i said the Meek have a great EQ and the Eureka have tremendous gain and very low noise. Who knows with the room tretment i may have some surprises. But i'm still very curious to see how much of a difference a 1000$-1500$ pre can make...

I'll let you know

Thanks again evryone. This is a great board!

Keep music alive!!!

Phil

 

[Herr Joachim]

Just curious what recordings you are referring to.

He is referring to In the aeroplane over the sea by Neutral Milk Hotel.

And i think he's hinting at The glow pt. 2 by The Microphones and I see a darkness by Bonnie "Prince" Billy too.

 

[edyer]

Just curious what recordings you are referring to.

Look at some of the old mowtown stuff. A lot of the old reggae that came out of Jamaica. How about all the old blues stuff that was recorded live right off the house board ? There are thousands of examples of little Indie release that have been done over the years that highlight musicians with more talent in their little finger than most of us could ever hope to achieve.

 

[mrface2112]

This indicates that the AD was pretty good on the M-Audio but the DA or clock on the card was sub-par.

my guess would be that it's the fault of the clock. i've heard a number of times about the massive improvement that you get from clocking a 1010 with a good clock (GenX6, etc).

david miles huber is on record as loving his 1010(s), and i have to believe that if the AD/DA sounds good enough for him, then the conversion on that thing is probably plenty fine. i can't believe, however, that he uses the internal clock on it.


cheers,
wade