The Saga of the Newbie, Recording Included

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Ekman

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It's time I stopped messing around and actually learn how to record things properly. The information overload really kills me, though, so I was hoping some knowledgeable people could give me a kick start and then I can take it from there. Here is my current set up:

Shure 58
Alesis iMultiMix8 USB mixer
MultiMix plugged into the Line In on my onboard MB
Kristal Audio Engine
Some regular speakers, and Yamaha RH-5Ma Monitor headhpones
And that's it.

Obviously my gear is, uh, rudimentary, but I need to be selective about where I drop money first (for some reason, I?m not filthy rich yet), which is one thing I'd like help with. Of course, I get the feeling that way too many people throw money at recording instead of learning how to do it properly and it's a path I plan on staying away from.

This is my 5th post so I have to double post here to link to the music (due to site rules, need 6 posts for links). Before you listen, here are some things up front:
  1. I like the song but the recording is pretty bad. Really, steel yourself.
  2. There is an incredible amount of noise on the vocal track. I don't know why. It?s also eq?d and condensed very badly. I am including a no-vocal version so you can hear the instruments. I almost didn?t even include the vocal version but these are problems that I?m not entirely sure how to solve so it?s important that I include them.
  3. I'm not concerned with anything but the recording process right now. The guitar is amped with a Microcube at low volume, I had basically just shown the singer this tune so he didn't really know it (I just wanted a track), and I had spent a total of 1.5-2 hours of my entire life playing drums when I recorded this. So yeah there are other non-recording issues but they aren?t the focus.
  4. I have really thick skin.


Ok, had a listen? So here are some of my immediate thoughts.
  1. The sound is not very full. I think it?s called boxiness? I?m betting that this is a combination of things, but how much of it is the mic, etc? I do feel like I need a better mic. The 58 seems very dull, but it could be other things.
  2. Stuff is clipping all over the place. I especially have a hard time with this when I?m trying to equalize the parts, with vocal parts being the worst. Also, tracks seem to start clipping at medium volumes for me. I think this has to do with my soundcard but I dunno, maybe it is normal.
  3. I don?t like Kristal. I am probably going to switch over to Reaper.
  4. The vocals are eq?d and condensed terribly, especially in the beginning. I am trying to use the tools built into Kristal for this and I feel like they are very rudimentary. Any advice about this? Should I be looking at external kinds of software for this or will programs like Reaper have better tools?
  5. Right now I have a mic going into a mixer which is going into Line In on a crappy soundcard. I tried using the USB function instead but it is so quiet that I had to switch back to Line In. I don?t think the mixer is working properly but it could just be the USB drivers. I feel like this is a weak point and causing problems with the sound quality, noise levels, clipping, and everything.
  6. Oh god, the recording latency. I had to drag and drop all the clips into place, what a pain. I am going to look at using Asio4All for some latency correction. But does having a good soundcard or an audio interface solve this?

So, where should I start improving? What do I need to know that I clearly don?t know? What gear do I need to buy right this instant? I can pick up more advanced things as I go along, but right now I am at a loss as to what needs to be the next step for me.

Any help is very much appreciated. Thanks.
 
W/ Vocals:
[MP3]http://fippy.home.insightbb.com/Hitman.mp3[/MP3]
No Vocals:
[MP3]http://fippy.home.insightbb.com/HitmanNoVocal.mp3[/MP3]
 
... just a thought, but before you go buy a bunch of stuff, practice tracking & mixing. some of the probs are in the tracking. lots more are in the mix.
 
So there's a lot to talk about here... I listened to the no vocal version, and without knowing exactly what you're trying to achieve it's hard to know what to advise... I was distracted by the tracking of the various instruments - very loose - and some of the guitar sounds are very brittle... these things could be improved and there'd be a subsequent improvement in the recording... but that's not necessarily what you're asking.

The standard way newbies are advised to get a basic set up happening these days (and this is not my advice as I use a SIAB set up) is to get a decent PC, decent USB audio interface with multiple channels and ditch the mixer / soundcard thing, and some decent microphones... there's only so much you can do with a 58.... and some decent monitors. Needn't cost too much.

I can't help you with the vocal track - you're right - it sounds awful, but I don't know who's singing and how - and it's a 58... arguably not the best option - but you're concerned about the noise... don't know... somewhere in your chain it's being introduced, so you need to isolate where... helpful... no, I'm sure you knew that.

Sometimes these things seem a bit overwhelming due to the sheer number of variables... trick often is to control one thing at a time, like an experiment ane learn that way, not try to solve a crap sound by changing everything.

Anyway, I'm only listening with small headphones at work... people with better ears than I will no doubt be more helpful with the specifics...

Good luck. I think the song has potential, BTW...
 
Was the vocalist moving his head around while singing? I get the impression he was moving closer to and farther away from the mic. It caused the mic preamp (or sound card input, as the case may be) to be slightly overdriven at times. You need a pop screen on the mic. The vocals need a bit of treble boost to help the boxiness, and some attenuation elsewhere (mid highs, maybe?) to reduce the harsh peaks. I can't say exactly where the eq should be applied because I used the treble shelving filter on my stereo to boost the highs rather broadly and coarsely. Definitely ditch the onboard PC sound card and get an interface. All of that said, better gear won't solve your problems if your room acoustics suck. So look into that first.
 
Thanks the the replies, guys. I looked up "tracking" and did some research on proper levels of db for recording. Also, I have a few questions:

1) I have an Audio Buddy pre-amp from a long time ago that I totally forgot about, so I just plugged it in. It isn't a Brick but it is relatively clean. I tried running Mic -> Audio Buddy -> USB Mixer -> USB Driver and it works better (Of course at this point I'm not sure what the point of the mixer is). Is buying an Audio Interface still necessary? Also, would it help latency?

2) I am a bit confused as to how you even begin mixing things. I looked around on the internet, such as TweakHeadz, and it seemed like everybody was using big mixer hardware. Can this be done with a piece of software? Again, I have an Alesis USB mixer... should I be using that to mix? I'm not really sure how I would run individual tracks through it.

Again, thanks to anyone willing to help me through the newbness ;)
 
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The internet is great for little bits of info but sometimes they can be misleading and it's time you approached it as it you were going to audio school (because you are):

Mixing Books
 
One thing that caught my eye was when you said you had a Multimix USB and you have it plugged into your soundcard. Is this correct? If so, the Multimix will act as a soundcard and you do not need to plug it into the soundcard on your computer. You can completely ignore the computer soundcard and just use the Multimix.

Ekman said:
1) I have an Audio Buddy pre-amp from a long time ago that I totally forgot about, so I just plugged it in. It isn't a Brick but it is relatively clean. I tried running Mic -> Audio Buddy -> USB Mixer -> USB Driver and it works better (Of course at this point I'm not sure what the point of the mixer is). Is buying an Audio Interface still necessary? Also, would it help latency?
Click to expand...

You should be able to get decent recordings with the gear you have. Nothing stellar, but decent. The mic and mic pre can make a big difference. The interface, not as much. The room and monitoring chain will have the biggest influence on how your mixes will sound.

Whether you buy a new interface or not is dependant on whether you need to track more inputs at one time, or not. As far as I know, the Multimix USB can record 2 channels at once. I'm a one-man band and I never record more than 2 channels. If you're with friends or a band and want to record everyone all at once, then yes, you will need another interface. If it's just going to be yourself, then no, you should do fine with this one.

Ekman said:
2) I am a bit confused as to how you even begin mixing things. I looked around on the internet, such as TweakHeadz, and it seemed like everybody was using big mixer hardware. Can this be done with a piece of software? Again, I have an Alesis USB mixer... should I be using that to mix? I'm not really sure how I would run individual tracks through it.

Again, thanks to anyone willing to help me through the newbness ;)
Click to expand...

Mixing is after you have everything tracked. It is when you combine all the different tracks to one stereo track, set levels, set EQ's, effects, whatever the song needs to come together as music. You don't need a mixing board if you are using software. I don't think you should try to make any adjustments using the Multimix. Record every raw into the computer and use your software to make adjustments.

hth,
 
The main thing that strikes me about your tracking is that it it's very...........tentative.

Not so much the recording technique...but your playing/singing.
It's the classic "RECORD" light syndrome, where people get all tightened up when the red light comes on.

Play it like you mean it...let it rip!
 
TimOBrien said:
The internet is great for little bits of info but sometimes they can be misleading and it's time you approached it as it you were going to audio school (because you are):
Click to expand...

I like what I see of the Izhaki book. It should be here on Saturday :) I'll give it a read and see if I can fix the OP mix.

Chili said:
One thing that caught my eye was when you said you had a Multimix USB and you have it plugged into your soundcard. Is this correct? If so, the Multimix will act as a soundcard and you do not need to plug it into the soundcard on your computer. You can completely ignore the computer soundcard and just use the Multimix.
Click to expand...

Currently it is plugged in via USB and I'm using the regular Windows USB drivers. I tried a while ago to plug my speakers into the board but I was getting really loud pops from the speakers whenever I did things like click, so I plugged them back into my soundcard. Plus I can't get 5.1 sound off the mixer. When I get a pair of monitor speakers I'll probably plug them into the mixer, so that I can use those for recording and my regular speakers for my regular activities.

You should be able to get decent recordings with the gear you have. Nothing stellar, but decent. The mic and mic pre can make a big difference. The interface, not as much. The room and monitoring chain will have the biggest influence on how your mixes will sound.

Whether you buy a new interface or not is dependant on whether you need to track more inputs at one time, or not. As far as I know, the Multimix USB can record 2 channels at once. I'm a one-man band and I never record more than 2 channels. If you're with friends or a band and want to record everyone all at once, then yes, you will need another interface. If it's just going to be yourself, then no, you should do fine with this one.
Click to expand...

I see, that makes sense.

Mixing is after you have everything tracked. It is when you combine all the different tracks to one stereo track, set levels, set EQ's, effects, whatever the song needs to come together as music. You don't need a mixing board if you are using software. I don't think you should try to make any adjustments using the Multimix. Record every raw into the computer and use your software to make adjustments.
Click to expand...

Ok. I felt like the tools in Kristal were pretty limited (it is a free program, to be fair) so I was wondering if people had software specifically for mixing. Reaper looks like it is uses effects plugins for the EQing.

miroslav said:
The main thing that strikes me about your tracking is that it it's very...........tentative.
Click to expand...

I hadn't noticed it about my playing but now that you mention it, I agree, it does show. I have no problem being on stage, but mics put me off for some reason!
 
I know budget is foremost in everyone's mind. I have no experience with Krystal, but I don't hear about it much in the forums, so I'm guessing it is very limited.

everyone speaks highly of Reaper and for the price, it sure sounds like a great DAW program. The license and evaluation period is very generous, plus there is a ton of people on this site who use it and are willing to help. If you choose to use Reaper, please be honest and pay for your copy. We don't advocate theft at this site.

Cool. :)
 
Ekman said:
I hadn't noticed it about my playing but now that you mention it, I agree, it does show. I have no problem being on stage, but mics put me off for some reason!
Click to expand...

You're not the first. Some big name artists have been known to cringe when the RECORD light comes on.
I'm not saying your playing was bad...it just sounded too “calculated” - which actually makes it sound tentative.

I find that the best way to avoid that is to set a good, comfortable vibe in the studio...rather than make it too clinical a process. The type of lighting seems to have a strong effect. Create a mood...colored lights help...and less lights work better than a bright room.
Also...think about recording a few takes rather than "THE" take....that way, you loosen up a bit because there is not as much pressure to nail it.
In a DAW environment, you can also set the backing tracks in LOOP mode...and just play through a few times rather than even doing individual takes....then pick the one you like and cut it from the rest. Of course, that creates bigger single files per take.

If all else fails...roll-n-burn one...or whatever you prefer! ;) :D
 
An Update

Hi guys. Sadly I haven't had as much time to work on recording as I'd like, but I thought I'd update with my progress so far.

I took the conventional advice and got an Audio Interface and some monitors. I settled on Cubase LE4 (came with something, I forget now) - I'm pretty happy with it, especially for the price of free. Got my "studio" (such as it can be called) set up to have a less cluttered and more comfortable vibe as suggested by miroslav. Spent a lot of time wrestling with software, drivers, etc, and I think I'm pretty settled now. I haven't had as much time to work on mixing techniques as I'd like though. Learning the joys of MIDI and soft synths - so much cleaner and easier, if you can manage to get a good sound. Anyway, here is my new recording.

YouTube - Queen of a Throwaway Age


I'm sort of sick of hearing it for now so I decided to stop. I might come back and fix the mixing at a later date. The vocal track is much better than the first recording but still not good. Thoughts, suggestions?

Thanks as usual :)
 
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Thanks for coming back with an update. It's always good when newcomers return to share where they're at. Keep plugging away !
 
I kinda skimmed the above so sorry if somebody already said this. I haven't used Kristal in a very long time, but it would have to have really, really, really...... really, really gotten better to be even what I would consider remotely usable. It seems like a lot of us in these forums are always pitching Reaper like its some magic drug. It's not, of course, but it IS very, very capable, and priced VERY, VERY reasonably. You download a fully functioning version as a trial and then it is only $40 to license/register your copy of the software. I've never used any of the namebrand packages, so I can't speak to what they can do that Reaper can't, but I've never run up against anything I wanted to do that Reaper couldn't, so... I guess you could say... I'm recommending you ditch Kristal and get Reaper!

Also, I agree with whoever it was above that said you've got gear enough to make decent recordings (after you ditch the line-in connection to your computer and work through your USB connection, that is, as has also been suggested.)

If you want to add something... for my money it would be a condenser microphone, but honestly I wouldn't even spend that money until you get to the point that you feel the SM58 isn't getting it done for you. Only then will you realize what it isn't doing and know what to look for in another mic. Or maybe studio monitors depending how good your speaker are or aren't.

Good luck and Keep it up!!!

J

PS - I fear I come off like I think I'm some kinda expert or something sometimes. Full disclosure... I'M NOT. But I know a bit, so take it for what it's worth.
 
You are right jjjtttggg, Kristal really is pretty lacking. It's free and has good community support but I've switched to Cubase LE4, which was also free, and it was indeed a big upgrade. I'll have to look into Reaper sometime, though... I do hear a lot of good things about it.

The OP is actually a few months old now, I've just posted an update to the thread. I don't see a way to edit the OP or the title of the thread to give notice of this, anyone know if this is this possible?
 
Not to complicate things more, because I know there's a lot of information to deal with as it is.

But, I don't think anyone has even touched on room treatment. I might be wrong because i only skimmed through most of this thread. It's arguably the most important part of the equation. You can have the best gear in the world, but if you have a bad room, you'll end up with bad recordings, and you'll end up with bad mixes because you won't hear things properly. Spend some time in the "Studio Build" forum and read up on room treatment whenever you have time.
 
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