The potential ability of amateurs

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Who's gonna sound better on an affinity series Squire running through a Wal-Mart First Act 5w? You or Steve Vai?

Unless you're better than Steve Vai, you know the answer.

I know a guy who's got a nice set-up. A few Onyx boards, some midrange mics, good cables, monitors vs. my PC speakers, sub $150 mics and Firepod. My mixes/recorded material have always been better.

Really, if you exploit cheap gear, you can get a good sound. A real genius can take 7 grand worth of equipment and produce professional results. It's ALL about skill.

I do think, however, that this is just a product of the means to record being so readily available; a new breed and generation of professional engineers working on amateur equipment exists, a lot of them being members of this forum. Eventually all the studios will close down and everyone will work like Trent Reznor and just record out of apartment rooms with home made treatment because you won't be able to tell the difference between a million dollar establishment and that bedroom.
 
how about putting an amateur engineer in a professional studio and have them try to run a session smoothly and professionally? How about that huh?




(picture tumbleweeds rolling across the desert or dessert if you will)





Yeah that's what I thought!
 
Top end gear will not guarantee better results. Well seasoned musicians in a good sounding room are the key factor (in my opinion) to getting better recordings. I'm looking at the whole idea from more of a musicians point of view since I consider myself more a musician than a recording engineer. I can make a cheap piece of crap guitar sound decent, my students still sound raw and rough, even on my best guitar. I think the same concept applies to the guys behind the desk. Knowing how to get the most out of whatever you have to work with is what makes an engineer good. Better gear and a better room does make the job easier though. Personaly I would rather work with a good engineer in a modest studio than to work with a lesser engineer in a mega studio, that's my opinion.
 
Having taught students (not really amateurs) at a local college on pro gear, along with bringing interns in to my studio, my experience is that they can get better results with pro gear and a helping hand. However they still need more experience in order to bring the quality up to the level of a seasoned pro. Gear does help, but it's not the entire list of ingredients for a good cake.
 
Nameless said:
Here's another angle.

Take the pro musicians, and put them into the small bedroom studio with decent budget gear and room treatment, and common sense and well-around knowledge of recording and mixing (basic mic placement, mixing, etc, all stuff everyone knows here).

What do you think the results would be?
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Mom yelling up the stairs to keep the noise down and asking "what's that funny smell?"
 
masteringhouse said:
Mom yelling up the stairs to keep the noise down and asking "what's that funny smell?"
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These days "that funny smell" would have mom thinking "that better not be mine". ;)

G.
 
this is some good stuff.... but man it has the makings of being great if it were done right.. some parts just sparkle though.. just not consistently.. i'll have to agree with the 'meh' engineer statement.. but he's a damn good songwriter and that's why i listened to a couple songs instead of 30 secs and loosing interest.
 
cello_pudding said:
here's a meh engineer, with crappy gear, with great sense of music/melody/production

www.myspace.com/natehenricks

the only thing that matters in the end is the musician
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As eeb pointed out, the production and material is interesting. But, IMHO, the recording is terrible. So the question arises:

How much better would it be with a better recording of the songs?

Sadly, the answer is still: It depends.

If he's happy with it and doesn't want to go any further, then these recordings will do ok. If he wants commercial distribution, airplay, or wants to make a career out of it, he still has to determine how much that's worth to him. Do the benefits outweigh the cost? Right now, the songs are "just ok". They could be way better.
 
As an AE I want to try and attract the better talented musicians to work with in my studio. Even if the less skilled musicians paid the same amount of money, the songs from the more skilled musicians will be more enjoyable to and easier to mix. It is hard to make tracks that are not close to perfect time to make them sound good. Unfortunately the great musicians go to the “BIG” studios in town. So with better gear, not only can you do your job better, but you can get the better musicians. With better musicians, you can focus your skills working on the music and less on fixing the performance.
 
mrhotapples said:
Who's gonna sound better on an affinity series Squire running through a Wal-Mart First Act 5w? You or Steve Vai?
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Me because I have learn't to milk a bad guitar and amp for all its worth, though Steve is a much better player he uses top notch stuff and would be so surprised about the shocking sound he would have a fit!

Just messing it would probably be Steve.
 
RawDepth said:
Just out of sheer curiosity...

I wonder what would happen if you took an amateur home recording hobbyist, (one who at least cares enough to read and learn about recording equipment and methods,) and put him in a million dollar studio. Given a large variety of high-end gear, a few decent musicians, and a little extra time for a learning curve, would his mixes really end up very much better than those from home?

On the other hand, if you took a well seasoned pro engineer and placed him in that rookie's home with budget gear and a handful of average local musicians, would that mix sound like an "amateur" mix?

Some may ask, what's the point?

I am wondering if many amateur mixes end up sounding poor mostly because the room acoustics and the gear aren't revealing what they should to the engineer's ears. In other words, are the room and gear holding back the mix or is the lack of skill holding back the mix?

RD
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The amateur wins cause a pro would not even power up a normal "home" studio. He knows why.
 
A wee bit harsh on home studios!
20 years ago people would be willing to pay thousands for garageband and less than 512mb ram and a lot less than a gig HD space!
 
sweetnubs said:
how about putting an amateur engineer in a professional studio and have them try to run a session smoothly and professionally?
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Indeed! And while outside the realm of knob tweaking and mic placement, this ancillary skill will indeed affect the outcome of the session.

But I have to say that the pros here are predictably and understandably oversimplifying and treating this with absolutes when there is an infinite set of variables in this equation. An amature is someone who doesn't substantially derive their income from something, and a professional is someone who does. Neither title is absolutely indicative of their level of expertise. To assume that there is no overlap, only a crossover point, would be a big assumption.

Here's a couple of phrases tossed around these parts;

GIGO - Garbage In / Garbage Out.

and

(Insert bigtime legendary engineer name here) could mix a record on a portastudio.

In the real world, even the most expert pro cannot walk on water, and you simply cannot make a great sounding recording with bad gear in a bad room anymore than the hairstylist mentioned above can cut someones hair with a jackknife and have it look great. Conversely, I think there are "amatures" out there who could make a very good, but not great sounding record given a million dollar facility, which includes a great sounding room and the right gear to capture it. But neither will sound great, that takes both the skill, the equipment, and the room.
 
Robert D said:
But I have to say that the pros here are predictably and understandably oversimplifying and treating this with absolutes when there is an infinite set of variables in this equation.
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While this is true - sure, there are degrees of pro and am, and I know a couple of ams that could blow half of the pros I know of out of the water - I think that just obfuscates the main question...at least as I understood it.

I think the use of the terms "amateur" and "professional" detract from the basic question (which is part of the reason why I suggested re-visualizing the question with the use of words other than "amateur".)

The main thrust of the question, I think, is whether skill and technique are a bigger factor than the gear on which the skills and technique are being applied. Skip the labels; will a skillful technique on a portastudio trump an inexperienced performance in a labratory? I'll take the technique over the gear in a heartbeat.

And I think fishkarma brings up a good point. What's wrong with the gear in your average amateur studio these days? It's a lot more capable than your average pro studio was just 25 years ago.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
And I think fishkarma brings up a good point. What's wrong with the gear in your average amateur studio these days? It's a lot more capable than your average pro studio was just 25 years ago.
G.
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Just look at what Pink Floyd accomplished in the 70's! that was a long time before a decent computer existed. Now look at the average HR users studio, Protools, Firepods at the very least fruity loops or garageband! tell me the average newb could do better than early recordings like these with protools and I'll laugh in your face, they couldnt yet the equipment most of us have easily trumps anything they had back then.

In conclusion I would rather be a decent engineer (which I'm not) than have all this fancy equipment! if you let me loose on a tape machine i would probably set something on fire.
 
sweetnubs said:
how about putting an amateur engineer in a professional studio and have them try to run a session smoothly and professionally? How about that huh?




(picture tumbleweeds rolling across the desert or dessert if you will)





Yeah that's what I thought!
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if they're a pretty easy person to work with, calm, and have a good sense of logic, sure! Obviously, if they don't know a thing about how a studio works, they wouldn't know how to approach anything, but I would think most hobbyists that have been around studios in some way, would have an okay time if they're personality, creativity, and problem solving skills were okay.

You should market a tumbleweed ice cream. If we can have garlic ice cream we could do the same with tumbleweeds weeds and cream, yum! Now, that's dessert!
 
TerraMortim said:
You should market a tumbleweed ice cream. If we can have garlic ice cream we could do the same with tumbleweeds weeds and cream, yum! Now, that's dessert!
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You thnik some peopel would use the spell chcek once in a while.... Tisk! How can they be so inconisderate :mad:



:D
 
Fishmed_Returns said:
As an AE I want to try and attract the better talented musicians to work with in my studio. Even if the less skilled musicians paid the same amount of money, the songs from the more skilled musicians will be more enjoyable to and easier to mix. It is hard to make tracks that are not close to perfect time to make them sound good. Unfortunately the great musicians go to the “BIG” studios in town. So with better gear, not only can you do your job better, but you can get the better musicians. With better musicians, you can focus your skills working on the music and less on fixing the performance.
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I don't have a hard time attracting amazing musicians, and I run my studio out of my house, based entirely on a computer running Logic pro 7 :). Big studios are kind of neat for a while, but I don't hear all that creative or original music coming from them most times. There just simply isn't so much of a point of going into one of these insane studios unless someone gives you an unreal budget to work with. Sure, an amazing drum room can make a difference, but there are some small studios I've been in with really cool drum rooms. Just keep looking and working with folks, and you might just be lucky enough to find perfect players for what you want to do. The ones who will only play in a big studio are a bit snobby for that attitude, don't you think?
 
fishkarma said:
You thnik some peopel would use the spell chcek once in a while.... Tisk! How can they be so inconisderate :mad:



:D
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naw...no time for that nonsense. I'm not writing an article, so who the fuck cares.

translated:

nwwa/ no tiem for taht nuncanze. im nto wrytin an artcal, so hwo teh fuk carress/.
 
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