The "Limiting" dilemma... AKA - "Stupid Clients"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Change of POETS
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Change of POETS

Change of POETS

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Well, I know this has been beaten to death in here (avid reader, I don't post much in this forum) but please allow me to take a swift kick to the Horse as I see it's still breathing somewhat... :eek:

I'm now experiencing some clients who want their masters "louder" to match commercial CD's volumes, and it's pissing me off.

This is my side gig (recording, mixing/mastering, etc..) so I've always enjoyed the ability to tell a client, "If I hard limit this to match commercial standards, you'll have no dynamic range to your music, and it will sound like crap." I've enjoyed the fact that most of my clients have accepted this, and allowed me to master their projects to maintain sound dynamics and clarity.

Well, now I'm running into some clients who want nothing less than the "commercial sound" because in their opinion, it's what "all the professionals are doing" :rolleyes: They don't seem to understand that the professionals are being forced into that position by moronic labels mandating that the sound be overcompressed and waveforms look like building blocks in an errector set. :mad:

Nonetheless, I'm not just ranting here (although it seems like it..lol..) as I could use your expert advice here. Let me describe my process to you.

First, I finalize my mix of any track to peak at -6db to ensure I have enough headroom for mastering.

Secondly, I master to the pointwhere I'm generally peaking around -2db or so.

Finally, I'll use a limiter to bring the overall volume up to around -.1db but my settings are usually such as to not squash the living hell out of the track.

This has allowed me to maintain the dynamics of my masters over most projects, and it has yeilded fabulous results in my opinion.

Here is my question... How can I adjust the settings in my limiting stage, to maximize overall volume for the clients seeking that "commercial" appeal, and achieve that virtual building block wave form, without clipping the piss out of the mix? I've tried a few things, and nothing I've tried has given me the results I'd be "ok" with, in returning a product to my client. Digital Clipping is a pain, and it's obvious to anyone with a set of good ears...

Any help?

Thanks in advance.

-Brian
 
Change of POETS said:
First, I finalize my mix of any track to peak at -6db to ensure I have enough headroom for mastering.
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What do you mean by finalizing? Normalize? I'd skip that, it's an unnecessary step.

Secondly, I master to the pointwhere I'm generally peaking around -2db or so.
Click to expand...

Again please describe this process. +4dB gain, compression, what?

Finally, I'll use a limiter to bring the overall volume up to around -.1db but my settings are usually such as to not squash the living hell out of the track.[/qutoe]

What RMS are you starting and ending with? Hard to know how loud you've made it with just peak levels. How much limiting is really taking place?
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Hey buddy.
Not that i like cranking up the volume but if you want those loud levels the best way to get them is.

Say you have a song that has retained some goodness and quality in the audio and does not sound gritty and all that shit, and your going for the big square wave.
First you have to eq well. Why cause unbalanced spectrum puts a lot of strain on the compressors and limiters it also sounds like shit when cranked.
So balance your song with eq as well as you can. Then chain a couple of compressors together or a couple of limiters together.
You will probably have more luck building up the volume with a couple of compressors followed by a limiter.
Im talking smashed levels here. I dont recommend it but there are people out there who want it.
Then give them a link to articles to read on the loudness war.
Also try and simulate what airtime play will do to the song on top of what youve done and let them listen.
Also Master the song as best you can with respect only to the song. Do there smash job. Get them to listen to both at the same volume and see which one they pick.

Hope this is helpful.
 
mshilarious said:
What do you mean by finalizing? Normalize? I'd skip that, it's an unnecessary step.



Again please describe this process. +4dB gain, compression, what?

Finally, I'll use a limiter to bring the overall volume up to around -.1db but my settings are usually such as to not squash the living hell out of the track.[/qutoe]

What RMS are you starting and ending with? Hard to know how loud you've made it with just peak levels. How much limiting is really taking place?
Click to expand...




I agree with the finalizing thing. Skip it.
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Let me clarify...

I finalize my mix at -6db. Meaning, I export the mixdown so the RMS peak value is at most, -6db. I never normalize anything... I dislike normalization tools, very much.

By saying I master to -2db RMS, I mean that's where I like to end up after EQ, Compression, etc... Compression settings and gain/output settings are usually different per each song and it's dynamics, so that is irrelevant to my point. The mastered track at this point is peaking around -2db RMS. Then it's off to the limiter to increase the volume up to -.1 db RMS (assuming it's a one-track master and not an entire project, as RMS values will lie to you when attempting to master an entire project and achieve equal perceived volume from track to track).

So essentially what I'm asking is, to achieve that commercial volume level with no dynamics, what should I do differently in my limiter?

My limiter settings are somewhere in the following (going from memory as I'm at work)

Limit Max Amplitude: -.1db RMS
Gain: Depends on the dynamics, but usually around 2-3db
Lookahead time: 10ms
Release time: 50ms

Can I simply change my settings here to achieve that squashed waveform and minimize clipping? Or do I need to go back and use a compressor to squash the crap out of the overall track, and then *shudder* normalize it to 0db...?

If so, what compressor settings should I attempt? Do I need to "brickwall" it?

Thanks again.
 
I think you need to check your terms on peak vs. RMS :confused: I certainly hope you don't have -0.1dB RMS :eek:
 
Yes, I do mean a -.1 db RMS value. As long as it's not clipped, I don't see how that would be a problem...? That is where the peak volumes are, not the entire waveform... The problem is, clients want the entire waveform there, to get that "block" looking waveform that you see on a commercial album.
 
Mate you can throw an L2 on there and pull it down to -15 if you wish but it will sound like shit.
If you try and balance with eq first, obtain a good frequency balance then you will only have to pull the L2 down to -8 to hear a similar apparent volume as you would with the L2 at -15 but with a hell of a lot more clarity.
But instead of a L2 pulled down to -8 combine 2 at -4 or compress then limit.
But if you want volume and clarity the songs frequency balance has to in order.
Did i say balance.
or balance.
Think tight rope. If there is unwanted frequencies jumping out the song will fall of the tightrope and die.
 
Change of POETS said:
Yes, I do mean a -.1 db RMS value. As long as it's not clipped, I don't see how that would be a problem...? That is where the peak volumes are, not the entire waveform... The problem is, clients want the entire waveform there, to get that "block" looking waveform that you see on a commercial album.
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Oh I see you mean max RMS. When you say RMS, people will assume you are talking about average RMS. RMS is calculated on a sample of a given length, thus you have a max and min RMS for a track, but the average is more relevant to overall loudness.

Peak is a peak, rather than a 50 ms bite or whatever. Don't ignore peak values or you will distort the audio badly.

Again, what is your current average RMS level, and what was it before you started mastering?
 
Douglas Boyle said:
Mate you can throw an L2 on there and pull it down to -15 if you wish but it will sound like shit.
If you try and balance with eq first, obtain a good frequency balance then you will only have to pull the L2 down to -8 to hear a similar apparent volume as you would with the L2 at -15 but with a hell of a lot more clarity.
But instead of a L2 pulled down to -8 combine 2 at -4 or compress then limit.
But if you want volume and clarity the songs frequency balance has to in order.
Did i say balance.
or balance.
Think tight rope. If there is unwanted frequencies jumping out the song will fall of the tightrope and die.
Click to expand...
Well, I've never had any complaints of obtrusive frequencies in my mixes, so I think I have the EQ part down.... but I realize I do have the potential to always learn more there! Any suggestions? I'm working with Hip-Hop/Rap here, so I don't know if that helps at all... Like I said previously, with my normal mixing/mastering process, everything sounds amazing... But when I try to push the limiting to get that commercial volume, it clips all to hell. :(

I wish I could just convince the client to not do it this way... But then again, I need to learn how to do this, so I can continue to take on more clients.
 
Sorry to butt in, but Ms. Hilarious, could you inform me, and perhaps this will help changeofpoets as well, how do you calculate the average RMS?
 
Would you like me to see what i can do with it.
If i do something you are happy with ill tell you what i did, if not ill ask you what you did.

Cheers
 
mshilarious said:
Oh I see you mean max RMS. When you say RMS, people will assume you are talking about average RMS. RMS is calculated on a sample of a given length, thus you have a max and min RMS for a track, but the average is more relevant to overall loudness.

Peak is a peak, rather than a 50 ms bite or whatever. Don't ignore peak values or you will distort the audio badly.

Again, what is your current average RMS level, and what was it before you started mastering?
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OK!!! Thanks for that clarification!

My average RMS value in a mixdown is probably -12db. My Max is -6db and my min is around -18db.

After my whole mastering process... My Max is -2db and Min is -9db, average is now around -6db.

Then I generally use the limiter to bring the Max up to -.1db and everything else falls wherever it may...

Should I be using more compression in my mastering process? Maybe using a compander or something to widen it a bit more?

I wish I had a graphics prog at work, I could upload some screen shots of the waves for you...

I do have audio samples though, if that helps?
 
corban said:
Sorry to butt in, but Ms. Hilarious, could you inform me, and perhaps this will help changeofpoets as well, how do you calculate the average RMS?
Click to expand...

Ah heck, I haven't done an RMS calculation since college stats class :o

Fortunately, many software programs will do it for me :)

-6dB RMS is already pretty freakin' loud. I am not aware of a method to further increase the level without major compromises to sound quality.
 
Aaah, so the answer is indeed software. OK, I'll have to check mine out.
 
mshilarious said:
Ah heck, I haven't done an RMS calculation since college stats class :o

Fortunately, many software programs will do it for me :)

-6dB RMS is already pretty freakin' loud. I am not aware of a method to further increase the level without major compromises to sound quality.
Click to expand...
I'm just guessing as I have no way to calculate it accurately.

Is there a freebie prog I can use to calculate it?

Or will Cubase SX, or Audition help me there?
 
mastering is easy :)
just bump up everything between 3-4 K about 3db (remember, more is better)
put a low shelf at about...... oh, say....... 100hz and pull it down about 5-6 db. (here, less is louder)
now strap on the old L1
put on an rms meter. pull down on the L1 until the rms is about..... say....
-3db. that's about good. (we love green day right?)

it'll sound awesome. :p

and trust me, it'll be loud. :eek:
 
What is the point of 2 L2's in succession, i'm wondering? I can understand multiple compressors in sequence if they're doing different things. 2 of the same compressor just seems like more degradation to the sound from multiple digital volume changes when it's unnecessary.
 
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