The Great Homerec'er "Mastering" Dual!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Queue
  • Start date Start date

Which Sounds the Best to You?

  • TicketA

    Votes: 34 47.9%

  • TicketB

    Votes: 16 22.5%

  • TicketC

    Votes: 10 14.1%

  • I honestly cannot pick one as the clear winner.

    Votes: 11 15.5%
  • Total voters
    71
OOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HELLO, THIS IS BEAN 123, the aspiring recording guy who inadvertantly started all this with a simple couple of questions. I moved right after joining HR.com, and posting "Mastering in SF" I haven't returned in 3 months as my computer was not up until now....To be quite honest, I am quite surprised that a few questions posted with the intentions of learning better ways of producing music from home would result in such a pissing contest. I read the first few dozen posts, and then read them periodically as I scrolled thru the pages. Enough to get the gist.

I would like to thank Chessrock for listening to my question and trying to give some very specific advice that applies to my situation. I would like to thank Blue Bear for TRYING to help.

To Blue BEAR: You seem to be an extremely knoledgeable individual. I respect the fact that you take the time to try to help others who do not have your experience. Your communication skills could use improvement. While I read your posts and understood that you were trying to say that it is "worth it" to get professional mastering, you send over the computer a condescending and better than thou attitude. This IS a DIY
oriented page. I am proud of my recordings and proud of the fact I have learned so much.....I look foreward to always learning more and improving the art that I love so much.....My recordings may not stack up against the pros, yours, OR Chessrocks but they sure beat the ones I did 3 years ago. That's what I think this place is all about. A person in your apparant position should look to help out and inspire those below him, not look down his nose and send out a message that it is hopeless.....
Chessrock may seem a bit naieve but I'm sure He understands that the better the equipment and experience the better the sound. Anyone who pursues this should understand that professionals will do a better job ( of course) but should also believe in themselves and keep trying to improve. Until I'm in ABBY ROAD Studio I will keep trying.

To Chessrock : Don't let them suck you in next time. Recognize who is here to help and who is here to prove something.

I posted another question today before I got into this about soundcards. Any Takers???????????????????????????????
 
hey bean,

I don't think you read enough to get the actual message Bruce was trying to convey. He comes off a bit condescending, but he's actually putting himself in the same category as us. His point was: "I know enough about mastering that I can do a better job than you. " but his main point... "I know enough about mastering to know that I should send it out to someone with the knowledge, experience, and equipment/environment to really do a good job."

(this is me, Queue, speaking now, not paraphrasing Bruce)
I'm not against the concept of DIY mastering. It just rubs guys like Bruce and Sjoko the wrong way when one of us "homeys" comes off saying "I mastered my stuff myself, and it is great." They are pretty safe in assuming that you changed the way things sound, possibly making it better, but probably did not come close to achieving what a true mastering job would do. I thank them for pointing this out to us.

Queue
 
"Until I'm in ABBY ROAD Studio I will keep trying. "

Bean-o...

Didn't you read my "worst mastered at Abby Road" piece of this thread?? ;)

Kidding man...Abby Road is a great studio - I just didn't like ONE piece of their work.

Although Bruce and some other pros may seem to "talk down" I really don't think they are. Read between the lines and learn. For one - I am thankful for the likes of Bruce, Sjoko, Sonusman etc... as these pros give out some damn good info. Keep in mind they have to read / support / "argue" about some really simple stuff that would drive a pro crazy like...

"I want to make professional grade recordings and I have a PII PC, a radio shack mic and protools free. How can I do this?"

Simple answer is...you can't. After a year or more of studying and learning I invested about 3 grand and THAT will not make pro recordings. I will get me much closer but no cigar. :)

If you really want to learn my advice is this...

Ignore the "attitude"...soak in the CONTENT.

Good luck and keep learning.

And Q....

I'm still waiting with samples in hand. :)

zip >>
 
Oh yeah...

"They are pretty safe in assuming that you changed the way things sound, possibly making it better, but probably did not come close to achieving what a true mastering job would do. I thank them for pointing this out to us. "

Totally agree in nearly 100% of all cases. When I "remastered" the CD I was talking about with my new gear I discovered four things...

1) It wasn't as bad as I originally thought.

2) I only had to "tweak" three frequencies and marginally change one other to make it sound better TO ME.

3) NEVER attempt to remaster DIY thru computer speakers...which is what I did a year ago...it sucked.

:o

4) If you have a really killer song which was tracked and mixed properly...send it to a mastering house. :D

zip >>
 
The stupidity of a line like "The pros are loking down at us...don't pay attention" is one that tops it all on this site.
This stupid homey V.S. Pro's is such fucking bull shit. Whats the logic behind such a statement ?!?

What is a better situation.....that people should get educated by others who are better versed in the field or that they should give each other help as in the blind leading the blind.

I goto other forums on topics I know little about and suck up every word I can get. I love auto mechanics...I used to belong to a forum on mechanical help. I was never stupid enough to challenge the pros, as it was my intention to LEARN something.
I never wrote back "Hey you might think your gods gift to this world but I ME ME ME.....I will pull out that double plug and I'm sure the engine will run better....stop talking down at me as if you know everthing about engines....."
I'm not saying every person giving advice is alike a bible, but perhaps some of you need to put your egos aside and listen.
You dont wont to take the advice then do what you want...
But don't crap on about homeys VS pro's...if this site wants to turn into people who record at home only, then lead each other
and master all of you at home and buy Alesis compressors with your Radio Shack mics... etc..etc.... Just ask Dragon to ban all others who dont.

So now Bruce is condesending cause he claims it shouldnt be done at home?

I've been through this topic 100 times now. It has even been proven with this whole thread. With full respect to Chessrock
and the balls he has, the only thing this proved was that mastering is best left to a pro if you care about your music.

The discussion is not "Should homeys have fun with mastering?"
This whole forum could be about "how to record at home and impress your family and friends"...yet I think for many its way beyond that. Some people here realy care about their music some are fanatical about it. Some are very talented and arent trying to impress their friends. Some are looking for a break through to something bigger.
If for some this site is all about mediocorate recording and playing and song writing and nothing more, then good luck to them with their toys....I hear Sears is comming out with a new reverb. It looks like a Lexicon, it smells like a Lexicon, It feels like a lexicon and its only $22 for a pair ......
 
BEAN 123...............

...I'm sorry, but if you feel what I posted in this thread was "condescending" and simply a ego-rant, then your reading skills are pretty piss-poor indeed.....

I suggest you re-read very carefully each one of my replies.... I have no doubt your "impression" will change...................

And I agree with Shailat 100% -- if everyone here would rather this be a "home-recording-ONLY" site; then Sjoko, Skippy, sonusman, Track Rat, John Sayers, Shailat, myself and others I'm sure, will be happy to oblige and leave everyone to exchange recording tips on how to get the best sound out of their Radio Shack mics, mixers, and cables............

Gimme a fuckin' break........................

:rolleyes:

I happen to post here because I like the community, and I like helping people get the most out of their stuff, and learn techniques and procedures to help better their skills.... when I was a rookie years ago with my fuckin' 4-track, I would have KILLED to have a resource such as this to help me learn............ not only that, but this site has the nicest group of people contributing here... very different from RAP and Harmony Central.....

But hey.... just say the word....... I'll split....

:mad:
 
shut up and sit down Bruce, you arent going anywhere.......


look guys, the "pros" here can look down on me and condescend all they want...the info they provide is priceless and some of them even provide sexual favors (Ed, but u didnt here that from me
;) )....so if you dodnt like what you hear when they post, click that back button and go to the next post or get your ass flamed by a pro.....

these guys are helping us bridge the gap between "homey DIY" and "pro"......some of us might think that you can get the same results recording,mixing, and mastering at home, but you are fooling yourself....just learn to do the best you can with what you have and have fun....want pro results?go to a pro studio....want to master your own project?you need one item-a second opinion (dont do it).....pros send their stuff off to be mastered by mastering engineers, there is no shame in it.....just concentrate on improving your recording/mixing skills......

now you all behave or ill put you in timeout.....
 
Occasionally you meet a bean - and beans are not known for brains. The bean will therefore not be able to grasp the concept that there are people who record for a living, but still find it fun and worthwhile to mix, mingle and help people who record for fun, at whatever level - just because they love what they do and like to share it around a bit.
Beans will never learn, they don't have the attitude or aptitude
 
Damn.....

Completely agree.

If the pros split - I split. (not that anyone would care)

I like the fact they are here and occassionally threaten to bash me in the head with that new Sears Lexicon when I misbehave. *LOL*

This is a great resource and I have found more help here than the other internet recording sites combined. I still post on 4 or more of them.

I've learned a TON over the last year or 2 and I've been involved with live sound for over 20 years...

Maybe someday I will be considered a "pro" on the site (I use the term VERY loosely) but until then I will help with some of the simpler questions and hope the pros stay to help with the tough ones...

peace!

zip >>
 
Gentlemen! Please, nobody split themselves, it would be a horrible mess and someone (probably Queue) would have to clean it up!

Seriously, let me say that I am incredibly glad to have all of you experianced guys around to show us the way, so to speak. You are ALL appreciated for your different and unique perspectives. While the comments occasionally grew nasty, the whole thread was very enlightening

If I may say so, I do think I understand where Bean is coming from, and yes I think that communication skills are involved here somewhere. Way back when this thread started in the Sound Forge area there were some comments by Shailat and Bruce that irritated me. They related to the general idea (and now I'm paraphrasing) that home recordests shouldn't use the word "Mastering" to describe their post-production because they are unqualified. This irked me, because I think of mastering as a process, not some sort of zen-Buddist ability. In my opinion, if you are editing a fully mixed down stereo file for the purpose of enhanceing the sound, then you are (VERB) "mastering" it. You may well suck and do a horrible job, making it worse then it was, but you are still mastering it. To borrow Sjoko2's analogy, if I get into a Formula I car and take it arround the track, even if I can't get it above 20 mph with out spinning out, I am still "driving" it. A pro can drive it 100 times better, but it is still (VERB) "driving".

On the other hand I think that Bruce, Shailat, and everyone else would agree with me that the title (NOUN) "Mastering Engineer" implies a level of skill, knowlage, and experiance that far surpasses 99.99% of the persons who visit this site. And I think that anyone who tries to pass himself off as a "Mastering Engineer" without said qualifications should be severly beaten with a box of Radio Shack microphones. And I think (gentlemen please correct me here) that some of the distain from the local pros is really focused at this, not the amatuer guy who's just trying to make his own track louder - and enjoying the process of doing so.

From my own perspective, prior to a few months ago I did no mastering at all - just got my mix right and applied effects (if any) and that was it. I've certainly long known what mastering was, but I thought of it purely in terms of big-time commercial artists. My appreciation for the "art" of mastering has skyrocketed since this thread started. For my own current situation (serious hobbiest not a pro; recording my own stuff not clients; low budget) it really doesn't make sense for me to have stuff professionally mastered, so I have begun to tinker with it myself. But I am more then ever aware of my own limitations, and how much I have to learn, and these are good things to be reminded of!

And since most of us agree that the most important tools of a real mastering engineer are his ears and experiance, I still think it would be an interesting experiment to see (as someone earlier suggested) what a real mastering enginner could do in a situation where he/she was restricted to something like Sound Forge alone. It would be a good look into the state of amatuer home recording TOOLS to see if a good talent could set down his pro gear and use the low-budget stuff to do good work.
 
Good points RW.

I still like the terms "pre-mastering" or demo mastering for those reasons. I tinker around with "mastering" myself for both economic and artistic reasons...but hey - I'm not trying to sell my stuff - just learn the process.

I would LOVE to be under the wing of an experienced mastering engineer but I have to feed my family and can't work for free...which is what an apprentice usually does.

Never-the-less I've got some decent tools, a good ear, a love of audio and music and some friends in the area who are pros in their own right. So am I a "mastering engineer"? No. Can I manipulate a stereo file and sometimes make improvements? Yes.

And I always keep the raw data just in case I screw it up. :D

I see both sides of the coin BUT I'll still say...

If you have a killer mix with serious potential...off to the mastering house where they have the proper experience and equipment to do it right.

This has been both an informative exercise and discussion...

zip >>
 
As an ex-pro in the industry, I can certainly say this place should be happy that guys like Bruce, sjoko, and all the others trying to make their living as recordists, audio engineers and technicians come in here to share insights into the next level. They give feedback based on their success' and failures in this field which may or not help your specifically. I think where people get into trouble with personalities is when someone is self conscience by a lack of knowledge or lack of inability. I can get defensive when I feel like Im not taken seriously, but no one really goes out of their way to be a jerk unless provoked. I love to harrass and provoke people, Bruce knows I play the advocate sometimes which can be frustrating if your not sure what Im getting at. This forum can shaves years of experimentation down to days and weeks if your willing to open your minds a bit. I still remember as a tech when the engineer said he relocated some equipment and the console needed reconnected, go grab the snake! I about pee'd on myself, 50 ft bundle of cables weighing over 280 lbs...Its not really fun work, but its required work and tedious work. Anyhow, most pros have a level of professionalism that seems a bit stiff to someone who doesnt deal with customers. Give everyone the benefit of the doubt, respect opinions regardless to whether or not you agree. I spend a great deal of time over at the Mastering Engineers bbs, soaking up knowledge and playing the advocate there, Bruce read a book on Mastering Engineering and Im sure more people ought to do the same, education is the process in which knowledge enters the brain. Since I did work in the industry for some talented people before getting married effectively cutting myself off financially. I was given the opportunities to engineer some of my own music and was given a chance to do some "Mastering Engineering" for a local band called Legal Tender, I worked up from a Tech starting in 1989 and thru guidance and mentoring I got to mastering in late 1993. But Ive been running 4 track and recently 8 track toys at home since August of 93, I like my Job as a systems engineer. I love recording at home, I can quit anytime I want and there isn't clock thats attached to my wallet. Ive been on both sides of the fence if you will and I understand both sides of the argument. Sorry for the long rant but its not getting anywhere until a ref calls for a time out. Peace my Recording Bretheren.



Peace,
Dennis
 
Mastering Engineers BBS????

You have a link??

I haven't found that one yet.

zip >>
 
>>I still think it would be an interesting experiment to see (as someone earlier suggested) what a real mastering enginner could do in a situation where he/she was restricted to something like Sound Forge alone. It would be a good look into the state of amatuer home recording TOOLS to see if a good talent could set down his pro gear and use the low-budget stuff to do good work.


that's exactly what I was askin for. I always try to grant the pros some extra tolerance for snippiness...I figure a guy's spent years doing it, he's bound to know a lot of things I don't...hopefully he's willin to share it, and I'll put up with some abuse to get it...hell, they could just clam up and leave us to our own devices, it took them years to learn, why should they help us along by giving shortcuts?

I voted Chess's version as the original because I thought it was the "worse" of the 3...when I found out the results, I found I was wrong, but I was also right. I listened again, and it confirmed my first judgement...the original sounds better.

That's not to say I could do any better (props to Chess), and I'm sure I've done damage to some of my stuff...matter of fact, I KNOW I've damaged some of my stuff...but the question in my mind (still) is this...why? Monitors? Ears? Experience? Tools? I *think* it was experience and learned ears...but that's a whole different thread, I reckon.

Anyways, as if anybody cares what I think, having pros around is a great thing. I'll take any nuggets they wanna throw my way, even if they wanna slap me around. Make me your bitch, I can handle it:)

PS: Now that I'm through kissing ass, I'd still like to hear an A/B with outboard vs software.
 
Re: Mastering Engineers BBS????

zip said:
You have a link??

I haven't found that one yet.

zip >>
Click to expand...

Here is the login page, I don't have the front page

bookmarked. http://webbd.nls.net:8080/

I suggest logging in as a guest first to get feel for the bbs, there is a forum area for information as to how the board is used. I think you will quite surprised how much really goes on in a mastering house. The sweetening process itself is a very small portion(though it be very important)of Mastering as a whole.

I just had a thought, since we have this homerecording bbs, where most folks have limited budgets and equipment, maybe there should be a homemastering only forum, break out the mixing and mastering into 2 different forums, where the DIY lessons learned here can be shared, but have at the front page have disclaimer to notify participants of the differences based on what going to be. Explain that if your goal is radio ready or for breaking into the business, then Bruce, sjoko and shailat can give guidance in that area. But everyone else can just do whatever help to make a better product, limited distribution cd-r, internet and cassettes. Since there is such a drastic difference in the 2 different worlds I think it might be a ggod idea. Make The Pro's that use this forum as a transition team and consultation engineers. Just an Idea to help relieve some pressure.


Peace,
Dennis
 
atomic...

I get an error message when I click on the link. It says I need the board name after the 8080/ part.

I tried mastering and mastering engineer but no go.

Do you know what the board name is?

Thanks!

zip >>
 
hux said:
>>I still think it would be an interesting experiment to see (as someone earlier suggested) what a real mastering enginner could do in a situation where he/she was restricted to something like Sound Forge alone.
Click to expand...

Such a person would still be able to do a better job when restricted to using all but the most basic tools. The reason? Training and knowledge. He / she would know what to look for, know what to do, know what was required and apply that, within the limitations of the tools. If anyone should take any lesson from thei excersize, it should be just that.
The KEY DIFFERENCE between the 2 "mastering jobs" was that Bruce accurately identified the requirements of the track concerned, and the second party did not - in fact quite the opposite.
Back to the racing car comparison again. We'll put you on a racing circuit, in a Ford Focus, next to Schumie in a same car, Who do you think would win?

I'm amazed that some people seem to be downright offended by the presence of some professionals here, which in my opinion is something that is unwarrented, downright crazy, and should stop (note: not aimed at hux).
 
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