The Fletcher/Munson Effect.

  • Thread starter Thread starter demensia
  • Start date Start date
demensia

demensia

www.lukemacneil.com
After reading sonusmans thread which stated to look up information on the Fletcher Munson Effect, I did just that, and what I found out is that this law suggests that lower frequencies and very high frequencies are much harder to hear at lower volumes whereas frequencies 1-6k are super sensitive.. Is this all the information I need to know about this particular subject or is there more important information I am missing?

Also.. what this suggests to me is to turn my god damn speakers up so I can hear the lower frequencies... I read in sonusmans old badass thread something about pushing dB meters and a/d converters and all that jazz... but I dont really understand that yet.. so what I'm asking is.. How loud do I have to turn it up to the most realistic view of the entire frequency spectrum? I can get everything up to 0dB on my mixer, but the problem is I have seperate volume knobs on my monitors (SB-5B's so my low end is going to suck reguardless)... How do I get an accurate dB level?

I was reading BlueBears article on Levels and Meters at studiocovers.com.. but I cant undersand a god damn word of that... Its not my fault, I was born ignorant.

By the way, thanks for all that info Shailat and Sonusman.

I know theres lots of books thrown around here for references, but does anyone know of one that deals just with these basic principals so I can study them at the gym while I'm running next to some hot chick in spandex?... Maybe then I'll have more ambition to become one of those rich famous recording engineers!

--demensia
 
85db's (I think) is the recommended level for mixing. You need a db meter to actually calibrate your levels. If you don't want to buy one then a good rule of thumb is turn it up to just before it starts to be annoyingly loud. Most importantly make all your critical EQ and mixing decisions when listening at that level. If you mix at too low of a volume your mixes will most likely be bass and treble heavy.
 
That's why the loudness control was added to stereo systems. It adds low end and highs to reverse the Fletcher Muson curve at quiet listenning situations.

At around 85db your ears are flat so that's the level to check your mixes at. If you turn up from there the opposite to the loudness occurs, but not as dramatically so they don't have an opposite switch.

cheers
john
 
What I find REAL handy is a SPL meter I picked up at Rat Shack. They're cheap and it lets me make sure I'm staying around 85 dB at my mix position.
 
Alright I ran out and boutght one of those radioshack level meters so just keep it at 85db and everything should be beautiful right...

Cool.
 
Take a look at the attachment.

I don't mix that loud for two reasons:

1. I have overly sensitive ears and really can't stand for that kind of preassures. Anyway, even if I had perfect ears , I have read more than once that you can get hearing damage from listening even as low as 70dB. Especially if you do it for a long period.

2. Most people don't listen that loud, so I think it's better to mix at a sound preassure level that most people listen to. Think about it. If most people listen at for example 60dB, wouldn't it then be best if the mix sounded best at this volume? But I always try it on different volumes as well.

This is just my humble opinion. ;)

/Anders
 

Attachments

  • fletcher-munson2.webp
    fletcher-munson2.webp
    39.7 KB · Views: 233
most people don't listen with reference monitors, either... 30" from their faces.
 
boray... judging from the quality of your previous posts, I would never... EVER listen to anything you had to say.

- But thank you for your time.
 
I never mix at 85db. Im usually about 36" from my monitors. I mix at several volumes during working on a songs mixdown. Mostly because I want to hear what pops in or out of the mix based on volume. Sometimes if you don't mix at loud enough volumes you can over do the mid range which become fatiguing very quickly, and sometime too loud can hyperactivate bass frequencies that totally disappear at lower volumes. Im not the only one who does that.

SoMm
 
Son of Mixerman said:
I never mix at 85db. Im usually about 36" from my monitors. I mix at several volumes during working on a songs mixdown. Mostly because I want to hear what pops in or out of the mix based on volume. Sometimes if you don't mix at loud enough volumes you can over do the mid range which become fatiguing very quickly, and sometime too loud can hyperactivate bass frequencies that totally disappear at lower volumes. Im not the only one who does that.

SoMm
Click to expand...

Many are misunderstanding the concept. You don't mix constantly at 85 dB, or you are guaranteeing short term ear fatigue and long term hearing damage.
But when it comes to making decisions about frequency content, you should definitely audition the mix at 85dB before making any final decisions.

Similar to the issue about why one uses monitors, the idea is to make the mix work at a vriety of listening levels. If you only listen and mix at 60dB, if someone should someday turn up your mix to 90 dB they might wipe out the neighborhood.
 
demensia said:
boray... judging from the quality of your previous posts, I would never... EVER listen to anything you had to say.

- But thank you for your time.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind, this time he was correct in stating:

If most people listen at for example 60dB, wouldn't it then be best if the mix sounded best at this volume? But I always try it on different volumes as well.
Click to expand...

At least because of what littledog and Son of Mixerman pointed out. I.e., do most of your mixing at lower leves to avoid ear fatigue and to make sure the mix translates at those levels, but check the mix at about 85dB for accuracy.
 
ah f' it ............i say just slap on those nice headphones and crank those babies till you ears bleed..........thats what they will listen in thier low rider cars and trucks anyways..........hahah

just kiddin ya'll...........be smart with your ears......cause you're f'ed without them hahaha
 
Where the hell does this 85dB crap come from?
I can guarantee you one thing, if I had been mixing at 85dB over the last decades I'd be stone deaf by now,

Second --- making decisions at 85dB 'coz that's the only time you can hear your lows and highs? Could be........... in a fucked up room. In a well designed room with good monitors and good acoustic treatment the frequency spectrum stays pretty constant throughout. So if you can only hear things when you crank your system up, start looking at your listening environment and monitors. Also, you LEARN what your system sounds like. If you know your system, you'll know what your mixes sound like regardless of volume.

I normally work at least 12 hour days - at 85dB??? Jeeeeeeeeeez
Pardon?? PARDON????;)
 
Sjoko, are you are saying that the Fletcher-Munson effect is largely irrelevent to mixing?

Interesting perspective... but not sure i agree. Maybe i've just never had the privilege of working in a good enough room or with good enough speakers, but i definitely hear different freqency content at different volumes. Which is why I check my mixes at a variety of levels. I even go listen to them from the next room. For some reason, I can instantly tell if the vocal is at the right level (compared to the music) from the next room!

Anyway, if you reread the earlier posts, it seems to me that no one was suggesting that one should ALWAYS mix at 85 dB.
 
When playing a 50Hz tone at 85dB, you will percieve it as 70dB. That's 70/85=0.82... 82%

When playing a 50Hz tone at 65dB, you will percieve it as 40dB. 40/65=0.62. That's 62%.

If you like to risk permanent hearing damage like hearing loss, tinnitus or hyperacusis (over sensitivity) by being able to hear the 50Hz component of your mix 20 percent units louder, then that's your decision. (If your monitors even can reproduce those frequencies accurately anyway). It's no coincidence that something like 40% of everyone working with music has at least one of these conditions. And that is no fun I can tell you that.

It's a good idea to put a locut filter somewhere around 30-50Hz on your final mix to be on the safe side (and for other reasons).

Most people agree that the choice of monitors is highly subjective. I would say the choice of monitoring volume is subjective as well. It's just to learn your monitors, as well as your monitoring volume. Your ears is the most valuable piece of equipment you have. And they can't be repaired once the damage has occured. Mine gets better at times, but they will never be as they were...

/Anders
 
Last edited:
littledog said:
Anyway, if you reread the earlier posts, it seems to me that no one was suggesting that one should ALWAYS mix at 85 dB.
Click to expand...

Some people do suggest to always mix at 85dB. Even the manual for my monitors suggests that you should mix at 85dB...

littledog said:
Which is why I check my mixes at a variety of levels. I even go listen to them from the next room. For some reason, I can instantly tell if the vocal is at the right level (compared to the music) from the next room!
Click to expand...


I do that too. I check it at different volumes, listen from another room, and on different speakers as well.

/Anders
 
littledog said:
Sjoko, are you are saying that the Fletcher-Munson effect is largely irrelevent to mixing?

Interesting perspective... but not sure i agree. Maybe i've just never had the privilege of working in a good enough room or with good enough speakers, but i definitely hear different freqency content at different volumes. Which is why I check my mixes at a variety of levels. I even go listen to them from the next room. For some reason, I can instantly tell if the vocal is at the right level (compared to the music) from the next room!

Anyway, if you reread the earlier posts, it seems to me that no one was suggesting that one should ALWAYS mix at 85 dB.
Click to expand...

:) 've been to busy to read.
Regarding the relevance of the F-M effect.......... why do you think there are arts like acoustic design / room treatment etc.?
However.......there is always some F-M effect, which is our built-in human perception. If you know that, you "learn" your monitoring system and your environment, so you will know what things sound like at different volumes.
 
Some people are WAY too paranoid about hearing loss.

This chart comes directly from OSHA, and represents the maximum exposure times to sound levels. As you can see, 85db isn't even on the chart, as they don't require a hearing protection program unless noise levels exceed 85db.

90 dB - 8.0 hours
92 dB - 6.0 hours
95 dB - 4.0 hours
97 dB - 3.0 hours
100 dB - 2.0 hours
102 dB - 1.5 hours
105 dB - 1.0 hours
110 dB - 30 minutes
115 dB - 15 minutes

Slackmaster 2000
 
Slackmaster2K said:
Some people are WAY too paranoid about hearing loss.
Click to expand...

Really?

You might want to consider a couple of points

1. The figures you provided are "worklace measurements". They presume a maximum exposiure of a normal work day with breaks.

For us who work in a studio - double the time exposed, easily.

2. Don't forget that the figures provided show maximum exposiure time before PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL OCCUR.

3. I'm in my early '50's, have been in music since I was 15, and have worked with some of the loudest bands around. BUT, I have always been careful with my ears. (like, for instance, most of the Who's gigs in the early to mid '70's, where the console was backstage, with its own monitors).
THE VAST MAJORITY - IF NOT ALL musicians / engineers my age suffer hearing loss significantly worse than average for their age. You can really consider a majority of them handicapped.


I'm not preaching - they are your ears, do what you like. But...... my ears are my living, and had I not taken care of them right from the start, I would now most likely be doing something else.
 
There are many ways to avoid ear fatigue and damage.Short breaks every hour or so duing mixing not only clears the ears but it helps keep the mix in perspective.Grinding away hour after hour is only going to give you a tired sounding mix..sure, it'll sound good as its going but how many times in retrospect have you thought of canning it all and starting over?Fresh ears are the ticket to fresh mixes.I try to mix particular sections at a fairly high level.Fairly high=85 to 89 dB. I find you can really get close to the tones in the drumkit at this volume and add the bass in there around that.For screaming guitars i find a bit quieter helps and then i check it against the previous work at a louder level.For vocalists I like the mix to sit at just over loud conversation level and if they pentrate well into the room at this level it should be fine at any level.However , if the vocalist sucks i just leave the room and let someone else do it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top