The Business of Music

[wakeupbomb]

"vs. selling your soul to get ahead."

Is there a soul selling pawn shop? Cause I'd like to hock mine for some success, and then maybe buy it back at another time when I have some money.

hehehe sorry I was just kidding.

 

[pashop]

"vs. selling your soul to get ahead."

Is there a soul selling pawn shop? Cause I'd like to hock mine for some success, and then maybe buy it back at another time when I have some money.

hehehe sorry I was just kidding.

The musicians who thinks other artists are selling their souls are musicians who are not sucessfull. Do you not think the Breatles, Eagles, Britney, Justin etc etc do not believe in the music they record.
Go back re read this thread and if that is all you get then all my posts have been a waste of time

 

[glynb]

"Do you not think the Breatles, Eagles, Britney, Justin etc etc do not believe in the music they record."

I'm sure they all think/thought the music they recorded was good or worthwhile and all had to 'pawn their souls' to some extent to make it big - that's the deal right?

I have a difficulty in lumping The Beatles in with Britney Spears as if they are in some way of equitable worth in artistic terms. The Beatles CREATED some great songs, in addition to recording and performing. People like Britney and Madonna are mainly 'performers', song and dance artists, that's about it. Nothing wrong in being a great performer, they're very entertaining, but I don't personaly think all succesful artists are on the same level of 'worth' just because they all sell lots of units.

I agree with PASHOP there is a snobbery in some musicians that won't acknowledge the skill of people involved in pop. My son is a great fan of the UK Band STEPS, pure pop crap, but i have to acknowledge the skill of those invovled with putting together that 'product' which sold millions of units. Perfect pop for the kids market.

But that doesn't mean we have to accept Britney and the Beatles as artistic equals, oh no!

 

[lykwydchykyn]

The musicians who thinks other artists are selling their souls are musicians who are not sucessfull. Do you not think the Breatles, Eagles, Britney, Justin etc etc do not believe in the music they record.
Go back re read this thread and if that is all you get then all my posts have been a waste of time

Those aren't the people I'm referring to when I talk about "selling your soul to get ahead". I'm talking about the kind of people I see around nashville all the time, who come here with a passion and a love for music and end up losing their identity because they are so damned concerned about "making it" that they do everything based on what's hot and what will get them a deal. Ironically, they usually don't make it for exactly that reason.
I mean, I've met guys who are touring on albums that they HATE. They bought into the idea that they should just compromise, let the A&R and the producer always have their way, and then someday they'd turn it around when they got famous. Now they're out there doing exactly what you described: cramming into that tour van, sleeping on hotel floors, hoping that the deli tray is in the green room, etc. But they're doing it for music they can't stand. I went through a bit of it myself before getting out of the biz.

I've come to believe that when it comes to doing anything creative, you should listen to what everyone says, and then do what you believe in. I've met so many people who have lost sight of what they believe in, they just do whatever the record companies tell them they should do in hopes of getting a deal (or if they're signed, getting some more attention from the label). I've known producers who do the same thing: they take any project that comes along, whether they like or know anything about the artist, because they need the money. These guys never have anything good to say about the bands they produce. They're always saying things like "Yeah, these guys suck but it's a gig". This is what I'm thinking about when I talk about people selling their souls.

I'm not saying that successful people have sold their souls; I'm not trying to demonize pop stars. What I'm saying is that as an artist pursuing success you've got to balance your humility with some confidence. You've got to be willing to look at the top ten and learn from them, but you've still got to make something you believe in and LIKE. I would even argue that the successful people you mention have probably found that balance. Justin Timberlake probably likes the music he's making (I don't see why he wouldn't, from a vocal perspective it'd be pretty fun music to make); the problem is there are musicians out there who don't like his style of music that are trying to be like him just to get ahead. That's selling your soul -- doing something you hate because you think it'll make you successful.

And, ultimately, selling your soul is always a rip off.

 

[pashop]

"But that doesn't mean we have to accept Britney and the Beatles as artistic equals, oh no!"

You don't but many others of a certain age will
Back when the Beatles became big ,people said the same thing about them

lykwydchykyn
Writing songs is a funny area. I have written songs that after Im finished I think ...its kinda sounds like so and so. Does that mean I sold out or did this on purpose....I don't think so its just a song and I was as passionate about writing it as any other. When I produce the song and it kinda sounds like a Kenny Chesny song do I care......no Im in the studio it sounds good its played well and Im happy with it . Its only when its done and other people listen to it thats when the ..."he sold his soul"
Producers, musicians , techs......did they sell their souls......some might say they have but I tend to look at it as making a living. All these folks are hired guns and make the choice which projects they will and will not do. Kind of like the guy who took flying lessons because he wants to be a pilot but drives a cab....did he sell his soul......no he's just feeding his family. To others it might appear he has.

 

[mshilarious]

I'm talking about the kind of people I see around nashville all the time, who come here with a passion and a love for music and end up losing their identity because they are so damned concerned about "making it" that they do everything based on what's hot and what will get them a deal.

I've never been to Nashville, but everything I hear about it scares me. It seems like a giant exercise in groupthink. The music just doesn't sound as fresh as the stuff out of New York. Obviously different genres but that doesn't matter to me.

Here in DC the native styles of music have always been a little strange; bluegrass, hardcore punk, and go-go make odd bedfellows, but that's the scene. In DC you can play whatever style you want, and it doesn't matter because NOBODY is listening to you

 

[lykwydchykyn]

Pashop, I'm not talking about sounding like someone else. If you do what you do and it kind of sounds like someone else, that's only natural. We all draw from our influences, we all build off the past. I'm talking about people I've met who have reached a point where there's no love left in what they do, they just do it clinically and soullessly to make another buck. I was one of these guys for a while, making stuff I hated because it would sell. We jumped through every hoop the record companies held up. "We're looking for more of a Sugar Ray sound" they'd say. Next day we're in the studio tearing apart "fly" and changing it up just enough to avoid a lawsuit. And if they didn't like our new demo, it must be because it put that Bm6 chord in the bridge that Sugar Ray never would have. Damn creativity!

I guess you're right in that most of us end up compromising to pay the bills; I've done the same. In the music business, everyone makes a compromise at some point or does a gig they aren't into to make some cash. Some people make a career of it, though.

I chose to get out of music because of something a friend said to me at one point. He pointed out how few people really make it rich off music, and that the only reason to do it for a living is because you love it. If you start hating it, why do it? If you've reached a point where you're making music you don't like, working with people you can't stand, why keep working the late hours, getting next to nothing, etc etc.? It's not worth it. And usually these guys never get anywhere, because nobody wants music without passion behind it.

I'm not trying to judge anyone; I just hate to see people in that situation. Like I said, you have to learn from pop success, but you can't throw away your identity in the process. Well, I suppose you can, but I don't want to.

 

[pashop]

"I'm not trying to judge anyone; I just hate to see people in that situation. Like I said, you have to learn from pop success, but you can't throw away your identity in the process. Well, I suppose you can, but I don't want to"

I learn from everyone...good and bad but I try my best not to judge.

 

[David Hooper]

I've never been to Nashville, but everything I hear about it scares me. It seems like a giant exercise in groupthink. The music just doesn't sound as fresh as the stuff out of New York.

This is because the only stuff you know from Nashville is the major label stuff. There is plenty of really great music still being made here, but I'm with you on the groupthink when it comes to the majority of what is being released on majors.

Come see me next month at 2NMC and I'll introduce you to the real Nashville!

 

[Dani Pace]

Hey guys, can we all agree on one thing? No matter if you are a local band who hauls their own gear around and plays for beer and tips, or if you are a superstar with a hundred people on the payroll, it's a lot of work.
Finding time and energy is a strain on anyone in the business. I can't argue that there does seem to be a lot of people selling recordings who lack talent so reguarding them, I applaud the producers and promoters. On the other hand there are still plenty of great performers and writers out there and some of them are doing pretty good too. Any way you look at it success takes a lot of work and effort. One thing lots of "critics" seem to forget is that it is largely about selling a product,aka the artist/act, to a consumer, aka the record buying public and ticket buying concert goers. Fortunately for all of us there is enough variety out there so that surely we can find someone who appeals to our personal taste.

 

[glynb]

Yes, if you put on shows you work hard, I'm sure we'd agree on that.

Seems to me that the only way to guarantee freedom to make whatever music you wish without any compromise is to go the independent route. Not to get hung up on trying to make a living out of music. To make a living you invevitably start the process of compromise between what you'd LIKE to be doing and what you or others insist needs to be done to make the money.

If you have a day job to pay the bills you can dio whatever you wish musicaly, trouble is your audience will be small and you'll have limited time to concentrate on your music.

I'm from the UK so haven't been exposed to the Nashville scene, but from what i have seen it seems like a lot of people are producing music to a formula in order to make a break through & make money rather than for innovation/expression, just a different approach to music I guess.

 

[lanterns]

save your breath
get off the internet
start making something better
the milk spilled 50 years ago.
stop crying

 

[David Hooper]

I'm from the UK so haven't been exposed to the Nashville scene, but from what i have seen it seems like a lot of people are producing music to a formula in order to make a break through & make money rather than for innovation/expression, just a different approach to music I guess.

This isn't just Nashville-- it's any scene with major labels involved. Same thing happens in NYC, LA, London, etc...

 

[Doombot]

To make a living you invevitably start the process of compromise between what you'd LIKE to be doing and what you or others insist needs to be done to make the money.

Rush said it best:
One likes to believe in the freedom of music
but glittering prizes and endless comrimises
shatters the illusion of integrity.

WARNING: RANT AHEAD!

Look, Hard work does not = success. Nor does integrity= good music.

At the end of the day, I resent the hell out of bands like N'sync and Hillary Duff not so much because their music sucks (which it does) but because they sell more posters and notebooks than records. They are a symptom of a larger problem. Why aren't some great bands being heard? Because 12 year olds think douchebags like this are fun to look at. The music is NOT the center of their success. They are not selling posters because of their records, the're selling records because of their posters, and that fuckin' sucks. I'm not saying that they don't work hard to maintain their success, shit, I work hard to keep my job too, I'm not going to respect them more simply because they have the common sense to not get fired.

Music is being suffocated because acts like this sell. Sure there have always been pop acts/bands that sold without any real musical credibility, but with such a pasturized musical landscape out there right now, I have no idea whats going to happen. These dicks are taking music to whole new level of suck and who's going to stop them? No one it sells. I know enough guys who bust their ass for shitty pay 7 day's a week to put food on the table. I'm not willing to say that what these butt's do is all that hard. So you answer the same question 1,000 times. Big deal. So you have do go do in store's for hundreds of people who just want you to sign a picture. That's not hard work. There's no way you could possibly equate a guy who puts in 9 honest hours of construction work every day to a prick with a $200 haircut dancing for 2 hours. Sorry, I just don't see it. I hate Hillary Duff because if she was a nobody looking to get a record deal her pipes would not get it for her. Her throat...maybe, but not her voice. "You can't say that because you don't know her" Bullshit. I don't personally know Saddam Hussein either but I can say with a fair degree of accuracy that he's an asshole. If Justin Timberlake were horribly disfigured (WISHING!!), and he had to rely on songs without the image, he's be fucked.

I go on rants a lot. I'm not trying to be a jerk but what can I say.



I can't live without passion.

 

[pashop]

Rush said it best:
One likes to believe in the freedom of music
but glittering prizes and endless comrimises
shatters the illusion of integrity.

WARNING: RANT AHEAD!

Look, Hard work does not = success. Nor does integrity= good music.

At the end of the day, I resent the hell out of bands like N'sync and Hillary Duff not so much because their music sucks (which it does) but because they sell more posters and notebooks than records. They are a symptom of a larger problem. Why aren't some great bands being heard? Because 12 year olds think douchebags like this are fun to look at. The music is NOT the center of their success. They are not selling posters because of their records, the're selling records because of their posters, and that fuckin' sucks. I'm not saying that they don't work hard to maintain their success, shit, I work hard to keep my job too, I'm not going to respect them more simply because they have the common sense to not get fired.

Music is being suffocated because acts like this sell. Sure there have always been pop acts/bands that sold without any real musical credibility, but with such a pasturized musical landscape out there right now, I have no idea whats going to happen. These dicks are taking music to whole new level of suck and who's going to stop them? No one it sells. I know enough guys who bust their ass for shitty pay 7 day's a week to put food on the table. I'm not willing to say that what these butt's do is all that hard. So you answer the same question 1,000 times. Big deal. So you have do go do in store's for hundreds of people who just want you to sign a picture. That's not hard work. There's no way you could possibly equate a guy who puts in 9 honest hours of construction work every day to a prick with a $200 haircut dancing for 2 hours. Sorry, I just don't see it. I hate Hillary Duff because if she was a nobody looking to get a record deal her pipes would not get it for her. Her throat...maybe, but not her voice. "You can't say that because you don't know her" Bullshit. I don't personally know Saddam Hussein either but I can say with a fair degree of accuracy that he's an asshole. If Justin Timberlake were horribly disfigured (WISHING!!), and he had to rely on songs without the image, he's be fucked.

I go on rants a lot. I'm not trying to be a jerk but what can I say.



I can't live without passion.

You have an opinion which is fine everyone does but again that’s all this is. Your opinion !!! There millions who I’m sure would think your full of shit and there are major performers who would say that you do not have a clue how much work they do on a daily basis to maintain their career. Yes its like any other product made in the universe its all about marketing , being able to sell your product. If Doombot had an incredible voice , played incredible guitar wrote incredible songs then like everyone else he or she would rise to the top. The problem is its always the people who don't have any of that ability who stand at the side lines and cry fowl. Its like a broken record...I hear bands talking this crap day in and out in the studio. Be happy with what you can do , the success you have attained the people you have touched. Instead of jealously slagging artists why not look into where, when and , how they have attained success and use the information to move in a positive direction.
Cheers

 

[distortedrumble]

....................ok I'm a little mad at myself for not being able to say anything back for a while....i completely forgot about the thread after i ranted about hillary duff. i was in the middle of moving and looking at new mixers and mics. but yeah..i admit my rant was because of jealousy...i think it sucks that i cant be 100 pounds, blonde, and america's favorite teen virgin. (actually i dont think shes ever admitted to being a virgin but its the principle that counts lol). i didnt have the parents who decided to pack it up and go to hollywood. i was never sent to acting auditions or any of that stuff. i dont see that as the reason why I'm not a movie/music star though. I could pack up at any time and say to hell with my job, friends, life and move to hollywood, I can go to acting auditions around nashville or whatever. but i dont. I sit in my room, play music and dream. besides...theres not much room in the music scene for a fat black guy unless hes playing blues, jazz or rapping. i figure I'd try my luck at rapping until the scandal comes out that proves that I'm not hardcore from the streets. I was from the suburbs and played golf at the country club....actually i can use that part to my advantage and I wouldn't be faking a golf swing in the video

 

[pashop]

Extreme Makeover......If you wanted to you could be a 100lb blond teen virgin ...it might cost a few bucks ...and think of the marketing possibilities.
A " fat black guy " ....well thats 60% of the folks on MTV Cribs there is always hope. Its all about the beats......an MPC4000 , Pro Tools 002 , RODE Classic Mic and a cool car with 22" DVS rims....your halfway there.
Let me know when you post up some MP3's ...love to hear it

 

[distortedrumble]

http://www.hiconeentertainment.com/sslap.php lol ok. "drop" seems to be the one people keep asking me for...i have about 5 right now and 3 more on the way...probably going for a 13 or 14 song cd. (no intro, outro, interlude or skit) its been a while since i heard any hiphop cd without that crap

 

[glynb]

"If Doombot had an incredible voice , played incredible guitar wrote incredible songs then like everyone else he or she would rise to the top."

This isn't true of course.

Dommbot'd get nowhere without an inside contact or networking with someone in the business already. This 'talent will out', 'talent rises to the top' thing is really a myth, there's no inevitability about talented people succeeding, except in retrospect when they look back and say it was all destiny, which anyone can say looking back.

Maybe some people who are bitter because they didn't get anywhere actualy have a damned good reason to be bitter because of what they've been led to expect?

I think the trouble arises when people expect success to come inevitably from hard work combined with talent? When the truth is that as with most walks of life you need to know the right people, which isn't 'fair' and people really want things to be fair!

This thread reminds me of the Dire Straits song:

"That ain't workin', that's the way to do it
Money for nothing and your chicks for free"

The bitterness of the guy who installs microwave ovens when he sees someone enjoying the rock star lifestyle. It ain't fair is it?
LOL.

 

[Doombot]

You have an opinion which is fine everyone does but again that’s all this is. Your opinion !!!

Shit, I've been found out.

There millions who I’m sure would think your full of shit and there are major performers who would say that you do not have a clue how much work they do on a daily basis to maintain their career.

You could say the same thing about Roofers and Plummers. Again, not impressed because they can hold down a job.

If Doombot had an incredible voice , played incredible guitar wrote incredible songs then like everyone else he or she would rise to the top. The problem is its always the people who don't have any of that ability who stand at the side lines and cry fowl. Its like a broken record...I hear bands talking this crap day in and out in the studio.

I'm sure you weren't trying to be insulting by clearly implying that because I don't kiss the ass of every platnum selling act, I must not be a capable musician. That would just be stupid and a slap in the face to every musician without a major record deal. I really wish I could see the world the way you do. What with the whole "The cream always rises" attitude you got going there. It's cute.

Be happy with what you can do , the success you have attained the people you have touched. Instead of jealously slagging artists why not look into where, when and , how they have attained success and use the information to move in a positive direction.

Call it sour grapes, jealousy whatever you want. Maybe I will look at the top selling acts and make more of an effort to take my cue from them. I think I'll start right now...let's see...what does Brittany do that I can do? After all she's got an amazing voice with incredible range right? How does she write those amazing songs? It's not like she has songwriters coming out of the woodwork writing songs for her. Well then how do I play an instrument as masterfully as her? What? She doesn't play an instrument you say? Balderdash! Flimshaw! Well that means she's not an incredible singer, doesn't play an instrument OR write amazing songs!!! Everything I know is wrong!

Well her success must come from somewhere else....I wonder what it could be?