The Business of Music

[blinlizard1]

Does anyone believe that the "music industry", that bieng the large labels and any other off-spring ( music videos and such ) care at all about the decaying state of the "main stream" markets". I mean, the music that we hear most of the time is very formed and sterile. The bands in thier individual catagories all sound like each other. Where is the cry for individual creativeness, where are the songs that define a generation. Face it, as far as public listening goes, the dollar is the only thing defining about music these days. Don't get me wrong, I have heard a lot of good music, but, you have to go looking for it. I get tired of turning on the radio and hearing either mind numbing teenage girls singing about things they haven't even experienced yet or rock bands playing with the same guitar sound and same drum beats over and over again. The so called classic songs are getting way old and nothing really new has appeared for quite awhile. The industry (music) shoves face-fulls of young girls dressed up like whores in our faces and assults our ears with repetitious crap until we cry for mercy and turn the radio off. Songwriters are out there, but when the industry gets a hold of us they transform and mutilate, they song is no longer about the song as about the sale. Yet we keep writing, why, because of the song, we love the song, we are the song and the song is our salvation. We will always be in the shadows like rodents in the dark, you may not always see us be we are always heard. For every one songwriter that the industry decides to corinate as a "Mega Songwriter" there are thousands in the wings writing and creating caring nothing about the success, but only the life of the song, no matter what the song lives on........write on!

 

[distortedrumble]

...ok well thank god for xm radio...look into that and you should have a new found hope for Indie music

 

[pashop]

I said the same thing when Disco came out

 

[The Seifer]

and then I said blah blah blah waaaah boo hoo

 

[rudalicious]

Does anyone believe that the "music industry", that bieng the large labels and any other off-spring ( music videos and such ) care at all about the decaying state of the "main stream" markets". I mean, the music that we hear most of the time is very formed and sterile. The bands in thier individual catagories all sound like each other. Where is the cry for individual creativeness, where are the songs that define a generation. Face it, as far as public listening goes, the dollar is the only thing defining about music these days. Don't get me wrong, I have heard a lot of good music, but, you have to go looking for it. I get tired of turning on the radio and hearing either mind numbing teenage girls singing about things they haven't even experienced yet or rock bands playing with the same guitar sound and same drum beats over and over again. The so called classic songs are getting way old and nothing really new has appeared for quite awhile. The industry (music) shoves face-fulls of young girls dressed up like whores in our faces and assults our ears with repetitious crap until we cry for mercy and turn the radio off. Songwriters are out there, but when the industry gets a hold of us they transform and mutilate, they song is no longer about the song as about the sale. Yet we keep writing, why, because of the song, we love the song, we are the song and the song is our salvation. We will always be in the shadows like rodents in the dark, you may not always see us be we are always heard. For every one songwriter that the industry decides to corinate as a "Mega Songwriter" there are thousands in the wings writing and creating caring nothing about the success, but only the life of the song, no matter what the song lives on........write on!

as much as people think this topic is kinda dumb i totally feel you man. I hear a lot of great music out there and I think its stupid that it isnt gettin airtime or lots of shows or deals. I guess thats just the way it works but atleast we get to enjoy great music more than a lot of other people.

 

[pashop]

Its not a dumb topic problem is its just a rehash of same as it ever was. Radio is not about music its about advertising just like playing in bars is not about music its about selling beer. As far as "young girls dressed like whores" ...that’s promotion and marketing. Like many things in life that are not fair the folks with the most money are going to win. You have a great band with great songs a pile of money and want to work your ass off people will hear about you. There are millions of guys like blinlizard1 who seem to think this industry owes them something...sure there are a few dumb luck stories but for the most part its talent , dedication, hard work and money that talks.

 

[glynb]

blinlizard,
I appreciate what your saying, but it's nothing new.

Don't you think people said similar things in the 1960s about the 'beat groups', and women have always dressed sexily in order to sell stuff, nothing new there either. Movie starlets in silent films in the 1920s were thought of by some people as 'dressing like whores'.

if you feel the way you do there's a simple solution. Ignore big business music biz/mass media and concentrate on Independent stuff, where the real innovation takes place.

Big music biz is there to shift units and make profits for shareholders, not to produce great art - you have to accept that.

 

[lykwydchykyn]

The question I keep asking myself is whether it's actually getting worse, or if I'm just finally getting old enough to see through the hype and see the music industry for what it's always been.

Look at the bright side (warning: rehashed discussion)
1. It's cheaper than ever to record a decent CD
2. It's cheaper than ever to master and press CD's
3. It's simpler than ever to independently distribute your CD's (via the internet).
4. There's a growing base of people with high speed internet and mp3 appliances who can listen to mp3's.
5. With mainstream music sucking so bad, more people are looking to independent music for their entertainment.

I think the reality to face is that independent, talent-driven (as opposed to marketing-driven) music will always be a niche market. That doesn't mean it can't expand, but most of the money to be made will always be made from marketing-driven bubblegum pop. That's just the way it is.

 

[distortedrumble]

sure there are a few dumb luck stories but for the most part its talent , dedication, hard work and money that talks.

....Hillary Duff:
Talent? Hell no. shes blonde and shes an "actress" her singing ability is non existent.

dedication? sure! all the people that work to make her look good are dedicated

Hard work? ........ could she even get through a lunch rush at mc donalds? i doubt it.

money? yeah...people put enough money into her to make her a sell.

what i can hope for is that her parents have mismanaged her money and she'll be broke by 20 and have to start dressing like a "whore" to sell things. thats when she can say she hated her cookie cutter image and now its time to show the real her.

 

[pashop]

....Hillary Duff:
Talent? Hell no. shes blonde and shes an "actress" her singing ability is non existent.

dedication? sure! all the people that work to make her look good are dedicated

Hard work? ........ could she even get through a lunch rush at mc donalds? i doubt it.

money? yeah...people put enough money into her to make her a sell.

what i can hope for is that her parents have mismanaged her money and she'll be broke by 20 and have to start dressing like a "whore" to sell things. thats when she can say she hated her cookie cutter image and now its time to show the real her.

Well that’s all well and dandy ....do you know any of this to be fact? Do you know Hillary ? Thought so.
I worked FOH for the first NSYNC Canadian tour way back and I can tell you that these guys worked their asses off from morning until after the show every single night. Even days off were still full fledge promotional events. I have no idea how they kept going. I have done many tours with rock bands who were not even 10% as dedicated as these guys yet people I know everywhere blab the same bullshit your giving Hillary. I also have a son in LA right now working his ass off going to school to become an actor.....he has a one in a million chance to make it but he has invested everything to try.
One thing this business has taught me over the 28 years is never judge the book by the cover .

 

[glynb]

Well that’s all well and dandy ....do you know any of this to be fact? Do you know Hillary ? Thought so.
I worked FOH for the first NSYNC Canadian tour way back and I can tell you that these guys worked their asses off from morning until after the show every single night. Even days off were still full fledge promotional events. I have no idea how they kept going. I have done many tours with rock bands who were not even 10% as dedicated as these guys yet people I know everywhere blab the same bullshit your giving Hillary. I also have a son in LA right now working his ass off going to school to become an actor.....he has a one in a million chance to make it but he has invested everything to try.
One thing this business has taught me over the 28 years is never judge the book by the cover .

I agree these pop people do work very hard no doubt about it. They work hard on their dance moves and learning to sing etc, and yes they work hard on promotion (long hours, tiring shedule, etc). But then any of us would too if someone else set up all the media interviews, arranged book signings, set up chat shows for us, concerts, etc and all we had to do was turn up, charm, and perform. These people work hard, but they have an army of people doing all the mundane organinsing for them, that makes life a LOT easier.

Hard work is only one element of success and not the key element. Many artists (eg lennon) were renowned as being lazy. Just because someone works hard doesn't mean their music is of any worth - look at Madonna.

Having contacts with the power to set everything up so the artist can conentrate on performance or giving interviews makes life easier for them, compared with bands at the bottom who have to do it all including setting their gear up at a club and hand out fliers and find time to write their own material!

 

[pashop]

I agree these pop people do work very hard no doubt about it. They work hard on their dance moves and learning to sing etc, and yes they work hard on promotion (long hours, tiring shedule, etc). But then any of us would too if someone else set up all the media interviews, arranged book signings, set up chat shows for us, concerts, etc and all we had to do was turn up, charm, and perform. These people work hard, but they have an army of people doing all the mundane organinsing for them, that makes life a LOT easier.

Hard work is only one element of success and not the key element. Many artists (eg lennon) were renowned as being lazy. Just because someone works hard doesn't mean their music is of any worth - look at Madonna.

Having contacts with the power to set everything up so the artist can conentrate on performance or giving interviews makes life easier for them, compared with bands at the bottom who have to do it all including setting their gear up at a club and hand out fliers and find time to write their own material!

Again ....someone who assumes and does not know. Do you know Lennon, NSYNC or Madonna....and to insinuate Madonna has not made a musical impact in the world....how sad. Maybe your right how can you compare what these people do to the folks who setup their gear in a club...hand out flyers and somehow miraculously find time to write music.
This one made me laugh

 

[glynb]

Again ....someone who assumes and does not know. Do you know Lennon, NSYNC or Madonna....and to insinuate Madonna has not made a musical impact in the world....how sad. Maybe your right how can you compare what these people do to the folks who setup their gear in a club...hand out flyers and somehow miraculously find time to write music.
This one made me laugh

Of course I don't know these people, if I did I would have contacts and a network in place! LOL Am I only allowed to comment about artists i know personaly now? Come on.

I didn't say Madonna and NSYNC didn't work hard. They apparently work extremely hard and it shows in their dancing and singing performance. I didn't 'insinuate' Madonna's music is of no worth, I thought I stated that pretty clearly! And i stand by that, I'm happy with it (not sad).

Just because someone is a world wide 'star act' does not mean their 'music' is any good (eg Britany Spears) - though they may be good entertainers, there is a difference here in my book. Lennon (lazy or not) wrote Imagine, and Madonna hard working as she is wrote...er... I rest my case.

YOU seem to 'insinuate' that people at the grass roots handing out their flyers and setting up their own equipment in bars trying to get somewhere on their own, without money backing, without an army of assistants doing everything for them don't work very hard?

Sure signed acts work hard, but all they have to do is concentrate on performance, writing and giving interviews, in short all the fun bit, everything else from booking their hotel accomodation, to lining up the tour, to booking the interviews, to tuning the guitar is all done for them.

 

[pashop]

Of course I don't know these people, if I did I would have contacts and a network in place! LOL Am I only allowed to comment about artists i know personaly now? Come on.

I didn't say Madonna and NSYNC didn't work hard. They apparently work extremely hard and it shows in their dancing and singing performance. I didn't 'insinuate' Madonna's music is of no worth, I thought I stated that pretty clearly! And i stand by that, I'm happy with it (not sad).

Just because someone is a world wide 'star act' does not mean their 'music' is any good (eg Britany Spears) - though they may be good entertainers, there is a difference here in my book. Lennon (lazy or not) wrote Imagine, and Madonna hard working as she is wrote...er... I rest my case.

YOU seem to 'insinuate' that people at the grass roots handing out their flyers and setting up their own equipment in bars trying to get somewhere on their own, without money backing, without an army of assistants doing everything for them don't work very hard?

Sure signed acts work hard, but all they have to do is concentrate on performance, writing and giving interviews, in short all the fun bit, everything else from booking their hotel accomodation, to lining up the tour, to booking the interviews, to tuning the guitar is all done for them.

There is no way you can compare what a serious recording act does to a band who sets up their gear , hands out flyers and writes their songs …….. Pre production, rehearsals, production meetings, stage design event video image design and implementation. Video shoots that start at 7 am and run to 11pm . Traveling for 200 days in bunk 11 of a tour bus . Getting up at 8 am to do several phone interviews then heading off to the radio station to do another interview only to be asked the same questions a million times in a week. Now its off to do a record signing then sound check at 3pm a meet and greet by the radio station before the show play a 90 minute set go back and do another meet and greet with all the press , record company reps in that area and contest winners from who knows where. Somewhere in there you have to eat and sleep and the next day do it all again. Yes there are people who arrange these thing and it must be pretty obvious why. As well keep in mind you are the boss and now have people who are depending on you for their living. ( Red Hot Chilli Peppers is out with close to 90 people right now )
I’m not saying Wedding bands don’t work hard …..what I’m saying is it gets very stupid when people slag other artists and have no idea, not a clue what that artist has done or is doing to get and to maintain the success they have achieved .
I’m speaking from experience as a musician, FOH soundman and road manager for about 28 yrs

 

[pashop]

Hey guys ....I keep forgetting that this is a Home Recording Forum and that I’m older than dirt. Sorry for being in your face its just my nature to be passionate about what I do.

 

[lykwydchykyn]

Pashop you're giving a valuable perspective here. I think a lot of people want to draw assumptions about others to give themselves a certain sense of justice in the world. We all do it to an extent.

We see someone who doesn't seem as talented or as passionate about music as we are and need to find a way to demonize that person and justify our own lack of success. You see it all the time in young musicians, they want to talk about how hardcore they are and how they won't sell out, as if their lack of success is all due to their awesome amounts of integrity.

The quality issue of pop music is not a lack of time commitment or talent; it's simply that music with money behind it is going to be market driven. When you pen a song in your easy chair for your next home recording, you have nothing to lose but your own integrity if the song's no good. If you've got $250k in a recording, it needs to recoup. And it does that by appealing to the largest amount of people in the most lucrative demographic. During my brief period of being signed, we had to negotiate with A&R about everything from song lyrics to the clothes we wore.

Most Italian chefs I've met have nothing good to say about the Olive Garden. Most painters I've met have nothing good to say about Thomas Kinkade. Most indy filmmakers I know slag Hollywood blockbusters. It just seems to be the nature of artists to have a distaste for what appeals to the masses. And we do our best to justify that feeling, but in the end it's a moot argument.

Just my 3 cents...

 

[pashop]

Pashop you're giving a valuable perspective here. I think a lot of people want to draw assumptions about others to give themselves a certain sense of justice in the world. We all do it to an extent.

We see someone who doesn't seem as talented or as passionate about music as we are and need to find a way to demonize that person and justify our own lack of success. You see it all the time in young musicians, they want to talk about how hardcore they are and how they won't sell out, as if their lack of success is all due to their awesome amounts of integrity.

The quality issue of pop music is not a lack of time commitment or talent; it's simply that music with money behind it is going to be market driven. When you pen a song in your easy chair for your next home recording, you have nothing to lose but your own integrity if the song's no good. If you've got $250k in a recording, it needs to recoup. And it does that by appealing to the largest amount of people in the most lucrative demographic. During my brief period of being signed, we had to negotiate with A&R about everything from song lyrics to the clothes we wore.

Most Italian chefs I've met have nothing good to say about the Olive Garden. Most painters I've met have nothing good to say about Thomas Kinkade. Most indy filmmakers I know slag Hollywood blockbusters. It just seems to be the nature of artists to have a distaste for what appeals to the masses. And we do our best to justify that feeling, but in the end it's a moot argument.

Just my 3 cents...

Well said

Here is some personal notes that I’m sure some will hate with a passion

You know what is the most interesting to me is that no matter what style of music it still all comes down to one thing…..the song. I have had so many young bands in the studio who are the first to bash pop and rock acts who are doing well yet couldn’t write a song to save there lives. Its like a broken record they all do the same thing come in spend a few thousand dollars recording music that will never see the light of day and months later after they have blamed everyone for not recognizing the next coming break up only to do it all over again. I’m not picking on rock bands here cause I’ve played in many in the past but Pop , R&B and Country all seem to more focused on developing the artist for success. You live in Nashville so you are aware of the writing community that is available …..I tell every rock band even though they are not into country to check out Nashville just to see first hand. People their write music for a living Its incredible to go out to writers nights and watch twenty different songwriters go onstage performing original music. Sure some of it is crap but then some is amazingly good Bands like Lonestar who start off with 1000 songs to listen to and work them down to 10 …are they selling out . No …..these bands know their weaknesses and realize although they can play well , sing well and work together well they just might not have the ability to write great songs record after record after record. Unlike many Rock bands Pop , R&B and Country is all about self preservation. Why is Nickleback huge this year and crap the next yet Tim McGraw will always pre sell a million copies of his album before its finished being recorded.
Consistent great songs

 

[glynb]

Well I'm sorry if I upset people here, wasn't my intention.
Just thought i was stating something pretty obvious really, namely that just because an artist sells lots of units doesn't necessarily mean their music is of any real worth and i quoted some examples. Conversely, I also made the point that just because someone isn't a huge world wide act with an entourage of 90 people doesn't mean it's because their music is rubbish
That's not sour grapes, I would have thought most of us could agree on that, but apparently not.

I never said that these people don't work extremely hard, I agreed of course they do. But they are only one person/a band, and there are only 24 hourts in a day for all of us. They can't do what they do without a whole army of people setting things up for them to get the glory. Also ESTABLISHED artists do seem to take big breaks from all their hard work, going on tour every two or three years, to support the album, it's not 9 till 5 day in day out grind all the time.

Anyway, if some of you want to hold the view that the music of any big name artist who sells lots of units must be self evidently or great worth, thats OK. I just disagree with that view.

 

[lykwydchykyn]

Well I'm sorry if I upset people here, wasn't my intention.
Just thought i was stating something pretty obvious really, namely that just because an artist sells lots of units doesn't necessarily mean their music is of any real worth and i quoted some examples. Conversely, I also made the point that just because someone isn't a huge world wide act with an entourage of 90 people doesn't mean it's because their music is rubbish
That's not sour grapes, I would have thought most of us could agree on that, but apparently not.

Nah, I do agree with that. I just think it goes both ways, and there are musicians who are quick to judge something pop-friendly as automatically bad. And I try to stay on the positive side of things these days; I've been through the bitter artist thing and it got me nowhere. I've kind of reached a live and let live place with the pop music industry. They're gonna be what they are and there's no sense fretting about it.
But at the same time, I don't think musicians should feel bad or be belittled if they don't care for pop. So many guys I know take this attitude like "if you don't appreciate pop you're never going to be successful" or "you're just being a musician snob". Hey we like what we like. Other people like what they like. We just have to come to terms with the fact that we're probably always going to be in the minority.
I agree with Pashop that it's all about the song, and that a lot of indie talent could use some lessons in writing good songs. But I also think that a good song and a good pop song are not always the same thing. I've heard a lot of good songs that would never make it on the charts and don't follow textbook songwriting practices. But they move me. I can't stand listening to a lot of what comes out of Nashville; I hear the formula, I hear marketing guys at the label saying "oh yeah, people will just go to tears when you hit this line" or "Yeah, throw more of that 80's nostalgia thing in there -- the genX'ers eat that stuff up". Seeing behind the scenes has soured my taste for a lot of it. I just wanna hear a guy sing about what's really on his mind. But I want to hear him sing it well, you know?

I guess my whole point is that we do ourselves wrong if we aren't positive and humble. There are things we can take away from pop music and learn from the people who are successful. But at the same time, so many guys around Nashville just worship success and have nothing of themselves left in what they do. "Oh that's what's selling? Ok, that's what we'll do then". It comes down to that fine line between being confident vs. being cocky, being humble & teachable vs. selling your soul to get ahead.

 

[pashop]

Well I'm sorry if I upset people here, wasn't my intention.
Just thought i was stating something pretty obvious really, namely that just because an artist sells lots of units doesn't necessarily mean their music is of any real worth and i quoted some examples. Conversely, I also made the point that just because someone isn't a huge world wide act with an entourage of 90 people doesn't mean it's because their music is rubbish
That's not sour grapes, I would have thought most of us could agree on that, but apparently not.

I never said that these people don't work extremely hard, I agreed of course they do. But they are only one person/a band, and there are only 24 hourts in a day for all of us. They can't do what they do without a whole army of people setting things up for them to get the glory. Also ESTABLISHED artists do seem to take big breaks from all their hard work, going on tour every two or three years, to support the album, it's not 9 till 5 day in day out grind all the time.

Anyway, if some of you want to hold the view that the music of any big name artist who sells lots of units must be self evidently or great worth, thats OK. I just disagree with that view.

Hey Glynb your not getting anyone upset...these are your opinions and you should stick with them. I on the other hand found your opinions coming across as facts without any basis on reality and since Im an old road dog I just though I would make you and everyone aware of some facts. Some of these were pleasant and some have taken years off of my life. Some have paid me huge and others have stiffed me for thousands.....once got paid in empty beer bottles and an old pinball machine.
I played bass for years in struggling groups its allot of work and requires an incredible amount of dedication but as you become more popular the work load changes. The bands I feel for the most are the guys in the middle...they have one to three hits and still are not making enough money so they are forced to squish everyone in a van and drive thousands of miles, play every shit hole they can ,get told by everyone they are the greatest band since the Beatles. Stay in -4 star hotels and hope they get a deli tray that is on the rider that know one ever supplies so the can have a good meal.
No matter where on the musical food chain you are its allot of work