c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
Because they don't build guitars or amps like they used to.
That's why.
Modeling is nonsense. It is a Polaroid of a mimeograph.
That's why.
Modeling is nonsense. It is a Polaroid of a mimeograph.
giraffe
i love negative rep
ibanezrocks said:
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DunderXIII
New member
People look for vintage because they are re-assured by the sound it gives. It's the sound they know and they learned to love. It brings them back memories, they get good feelings associated with tones they heard or used before; as early as childhood.
And feelings are mostly what drive people to make music. If they can "get that tone" they will "feel the music".
It's not really the simplicity of the circuitry. For example vintage synthesizers are the rage, and they're way more complicated then even transistor amps.
FYI: I like tube amps better for some reason But I can understand why someone growing up listening to KMFDM would prefer sterile highly compressed sound; because its good too!
And feelings are mostly what drive people to make music. If they can "get that tone" they will "feel the music".
It's not really the simplicity of the circuitry. For example vintage synthesizers are the rage, and they're way more complicated then even transistor amps.
FYI: I like tube amps better for some reason
But I can understand why someone growing up listening to KMFDM would prefer sterile highly compressed sound; because its good too!
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
I would imagine Hendrix would sound awesome on a new Strat and a new Marshall. Infact, probably better.
Some of that old, vintage stuff was just junk....and still is. I know, because I bought some and wished I hadn't...back then!
Some of that old, vintage stuff was just junk....and still is. I know, because I bought some and wished I hadn't...back then!
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Often the fine handwork of a master craftsman beats machine built, CAD-CAM manufacture. Wood changes chemically over time. Do you think a Stadivarius violin is worth thousands because there's no one today who knows how to build a violin? Some things change, and some things don't. Small airplane frames, for instance. A Cessna 180 frame hasn't changed in 50 years. An AK-47 is the same as the one that rolled off the Russian assembly line in 1947. There has been no fundamental improvement in electric guitars in 50 years. It's cheaper to build computer modeled solid state amps than to hand build them with tubes, not better. It's cheaper to pay Chinese people $160 a month than to pay Americans $25/hr, not better. People desire vintage equipment because gear hasn't been improved or developed. Instead, the drive to build equipment cheaper and faster has resulted in an inferior product, not improvement.
There are a few things that have improved over the years- acoustic guitar pickup systems, for instance. But guitars, amps, speakers, and microphones have not gotten better in the last 40 years. They've gotten less expensive, and more cheaply made. Only the price of the fine hand work of a master craftsman has gotten more expensive.-Richie
There are a few things that have improved over the years- acoustic guitar pickup systems, for instance. But guitars, amps, speakers, and microphones have not gotten better in the last 40 years. They've gotten less expensive, and more cheaply made. Only the price of the fine hand work of a master craftsman has gotten more expensive.-Richie
K
KKM1
New member
im not big on buying 40 year old equipment. its super expensive and usually beat up.
i buy most everything new. new gibsons, fenders, rickenbacker. i just got a fender deluxe reverb reissue amp that im having a TON of fun with.
to me "vintage-new" is a way better and econimical way to go IMO
i buy most everything new. new gibsons, fenders, rickenbacker. i just got a fender deluxe reverb reissue amp that im having a TON of fun with.
to me "vintage-new" is a way better and econimical way to go IMO
I
Imaduck
New member
First off, it's important to realize that vintage gear costed a lot more back in the day. If somebody says they paid $400 for an amp 30 years ago, that's gonna be equivalent to paying say 3 to 4 times as much today. So, when you're looking at that stuff, you have to think about what kind of sweet amp you could buy for 1200-1600 today. Sure, technology has made some things cheaper, but when you're talking about hand-built American-made tube equipment, you couldn't make that kind of stuff for nearly the price it was made back in the day.
So do I think the sound is better? Well, given the choice between an old amp and a new, extremely high-end piece of gear, I'd probably take the new stuff on grounds of reliability alone, but the tone of the old stuff is still great, and if you want to get away from the preprocessed popular rock sound of today, vintage gear is a good place to start.
So do I think the sound is better? Well, given the choice between an old amp and a new, extremely high-end piece of gear, I'd probably take the new stuff on grounds of reliability alone, but the tone of the old stuff is still great, and if you want to get away from the preprocessed popular rock sound of today, vintage gear is a good place to start.
famous beagle
Well-known member
KKM1 said:
See ... this is what I'm talking about. I bet if you played your reissue Deluxe next to an original 65 or 66, you'd understand why people pay twice as much for them. I tried that same 65 reissue, and I'll never buy a reissue again, if I can help it. It's not that they sound bad ... they just simply don't sound as good. Not even close, really. Fender even puts a disclaimer with those reissue amps saying that they won't sound just like the originals. And it's true .. they don't.
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment and offer up some food for thought. CAVEAT--I reserve the right to not actually believe what I'm saying or know what I'm talking about.
For the most part, the tonal quality of the changes in vintage wood is unquantifiable. I'd say it's not very likely that somebody was able to record a Les Paul 30 years ago and then do an accurate comparison with how it sounds today. Think about it...what the hell would you have recorded on 30 years ago compared to what we've got at our disposal today? Even using the same equipment is obviously not an option--the old reel-to-reel sure isn't going to operate and sound the same way as it did back then. Is there really a way to know for a fact that your "woods have really opened up over the years and as a result, they sound so much better now"? Anybody who has owned a guitar for 10 years or longer would be able to tell you that this is true. Then again, when you do searches on this very forum on ways to achieve somebody's specific sound, the response you ALWAYS get is "oh, hey man, most of that guy's tone is in his fingers." Of course your guitar is gonna sound better--you've been playing it for 10 friggin' years, and if the sounds coming out of the damn thing aren't getting any better after 10 years of experience, practice, etc., then I don't know what to tell you.
I don't mean any offense to the vintage guys. We all know that this is just a matter of personal preference anyway. I absolutely love what all these technological advances have done for music--a near infinite amount of tones and styles are out there at reasonable prices for everyone to explore. The "old" sound never really did it for me, even though I'm a huge fan of a lot of music from back in the day. But if I came home from Guitar Center with a new rig and I plugged it in and it started sounding like Page's tone on the first Led Zeppelin album, I'd be wanting a damn refund.
All the anti-modeling guys absolutely crack me up. Nobody has ever claimed that the "Boogie" preset will sound identical to it's authentic predecessor. But if you can't take a gazillion different sounds and variations from one of these things and come up with something that doesn't "sound like shit", then you're in the wrong fucking hobby, my friend. I can't really figure out where the loathing comes from...maybe that my Line 6 head and my GT-6 cost me about 600 bucks compared to what I would've had to spend in the 80's for all those goodies? Who knows. I'd love to get my hands on a Triple Rec. (Seriously. I want one BADLY) The distortion on those things is ungodly. Until then, I'll happily choose from the thousands of possible combinations that my setup offers and be quite content that I can still afford beer afterwards.
For the most part, the tonal quality of the changes in vintage wood is unquantifiable. I'd say it's not very likely that somebody was able to record a Les Paul 30 years ago and then do an accurate comparison with how it sounds today. Think about it...what the hell would you have recorded on 30 years ago compared to what we've got at our disposal today? Even using the same equipment is obviously not an option--the old reel-to-reel sure isn't going to operate and sound the same way as it did back then. Is there really a way to know for a fact that your "woods have really opened up over the years and as a result, they sound so much better now"? Anybody who has owned a guitar for 10 years or longer would be able to tell you that this is true. Then again, when you do searches on this very forum on ways to achieve somebody's specific sound, the response you ALWAYS get is "oh, hey man, most of that guy's tone is in his fingers." Of course your guitar is gonna sound better--you've been playing it for 10 friggin' years, and if the sounds coming out of the damn thing aren't getting any better after 10 years of experience, practice, etc., then I don't know what to tell you.
I don't mean any offense to the vintage guys. We all know that this is just a matter of personal preference anyway. I absolutely love what all these technological advances have done for music--a near infinite amount of tones and styles are out there at reasonable prices for everyone to explore. The "old" sound never really did it for me, even though I'm a huge fan of a lot of music from back in the day. But if I came home from Guitar Center with a new rig and I plugged it in and it started sounding like Page's tone on the first Led Zeppelin album, I'd be wanting a damn refund.
All the anti-modeling guys absolutely crack me up. Nobody has ever claimed that the "Boogie" preset will sound identical to it's authentic predecessor. But if you can't take a gazillion different sounds and variations from one of these things and come up with something that doesn't "sound like shit", then you're in the wrong fucking hobby, my friend. I can't really figure out where the loathing comes from...maybe that my Line 6 head and my GT-6 cost me about 600 bucks compared to what I would've had to spend in the 80's for all those goodies? Who knows. I'd love to get my hands on a Triple Rec. (Seriously. I want one BADLY) The distortion on those things is ungodly. Until then, I'll happily choose from the thousands of possible combinations that my setup offers and be quite content that I can still afford beer afterwards.
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hueseph
New member
lpdeluxe said:
A most excellent point. I'd say. There's tonnes of great new gear and new gear that emulates old gear. Why bind yourself to one sound? Let the music decide how it want's to sound.
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
I think...
vintage gear is usually reputed to be built better than modern gear, with better woods, better components, metal in certain areas instead of plastic.
For the record, I'm a "modern" gear person, within reason. My first nice guitar was an '82 Ibanez Blazer, and I've bought off-the-shelf "modern" gear ever since,... nothing regarded as "vintage". However, I'm an analog nut too, and I've been forced into the used/Ebay market for my recorders and mixers,... with pure analog now being regarded as "vintage", by most people. Still, it's "modern" gear to me,... and I'm not talking about Les Paul's original multitracker or the tube powered recorder that the Beatles recorded on. I'm talking about straight 80's era analog Tascams.
As far as guitars go, specifically, I'm into the modern stuff. I have several Ibanez's, a few Danelectros and several others too. Early 80's is as "vintage" as my collection of stuff gets.
vintage gear is usually reputed to be built better than modern gear, with better woods, better components, metal in certain areas instead of plastic.
For the record, I'm a "modern" gear person, within reason. My first nice guitar was an '82 Ibanez Blazer, and I've bought off-the-shelf "modern" gear ever since,... nothing regarded as "vintage". However, I'm an analog nut too, and I've been forced into the used/Ebay market for my recorders and mixers,... with pure analog now being regarded as "vintage", by most people. Still, it's "modern" gear to me,... and I'm not talking about Les Paul's original multitracker or the tube powered recorder that the Beatles recorded on. I'm talking about straight 80's era analog Tascams.
As far as guitars go, specifically, I'm into the modern stuff. I have several Ibanez's, a few Danelectros and several others too. Early 80's is as "vintage" as my collection of stuff gets.
L
Larry Gude
New member
"Vintage" is a marketing word...
...and it only matters in wine. If you have a 'vintage' year for a certain grape, the whole crop is gonna be good. Not a guarantee in something manufactured. People who made them legendary starting using Strats because they were cheap and available.
Quote Michael Beinhorn: (Manson, Ozzy, Chili Peppers, Soul Asylum, Soundgarden)
"Guitars can be finicky. There are collectible guitars like a 52 Paul Goldtop that you look at and think 'This is going to be the voice of God" and it sounds like crap. On the other hand, a master musician can make almost any guitar sound good. It's a really elusive combination of the instrument, the amp and the player. I've recorded people who have all kinds of great equipment and they can't get a good sound for love or money."
So much for 'vintage'.
...and it only matters in wine. If you have a 'vintage' year for a certain grape, the whole crop is gonna be good. Not a guarantee in something manufactured. People who made them legendary starting using Strats because they were cheap and available.
Quote Michael Beinhorn: (Manson, Ozzy, Chili Peppers, Soul Asylum, Soundgarden)
"Guitars can be finicky. There are collectible guitars like a 52 Paul Goldtop that you look at and think 'This is going to be the voice of God" and it sounds like crap. On the other hand, a master musician can make almost any guitar sound good. It's a really elusive combination of the instrument, the amp and the player. I've recorded people who have all kinds of great equipment and they can't get a good sound for love or money."
So much for 'vintage'.
lpdeluxe
The Precision Bass Guy
So much for 'vintage'.
There ya go. It's like the "analog vs digital" or "PC vs Mac" stuff. Do what you need to do with what you've got and stop thinking something else will cure all your ills.
There ya go. It's like the "analog vs digital" or "PC vs Mac" stuff. Do what you need to do with what you've got and stop thinking something else will cure all your ills.
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DunderXIII
New member
lpdeluxe said:
Well, a Mac will..
lol
K
KKM1
New member
famous beagle said:
ive read on fenderforum.com where people have done blind tests comapring a deluxe reverb RI with the orginal and the only difference in sound was that of the speakers. Fender Eminance sound different than Jensens...etc. They found this out after they did speaker swaps. The circuits on these amps are exactly the same. A lot of times the amps dont sound "better or "worse" just a little different with the speaker swap. I prefer my fender eminance to the Jensen C12k theyve been using recently.
K
KKM1
New member
Ive also recently plugged into a tiny vintage fender champ at the local Guitar Center that was priced at $999. that amp sounded like SHIT. my $449 GA-5 Gibson gold tone blows it out of the water.
G
gordon_39422
New member
Some of these points are opinions, and others are facts... Understand that in this context, these facts can be false, I am only comparing and opinion derived from emotions and facts derived from information.... Be it true or false information....
That being said, I am not a "vintage" person either... I dont bias between a purchase based on wheter it;s old or not.... But I can tell you this... I have owned many amps over the years, and they started off as Solid State, and moved to Digital modellers, and now I own a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe Tube Amp... I really like the combination of tone and price... I got mine from a music store for $350... Since bringing it home, I have done many mods to it trying to get "Better" tone out of it... Guess how I have managed to do that? Well, if you said I have been on the internet and purchased "vintage" tubes, capacitors, resistors, transformers, and such, then you are absoliutely correct... Todays components are made completely different than those of yore... And they should be... Electronic components are used in nearly every component in a home or office.... They SHOULD be built better and made less expensive..... But I can tell you now that a ceramic capacitor does not color the tone of the amp... A metal film cap WILL.... Tubes are the same way... As are most other components... The only modern compnent I am planning to purchase is a Weber California 12" Ceramiic speaker, and its charateristics are based on the old Jensen's....I dont expect it to sound exactly like one,but I am confident I will be satisfied with the results...
I have a 2004 American Strat... The wood is still relatively "green"... I STILL LOVE this guitar... But again, I have modded it with the foil-in-oil caps, CTS tone Pots, etc... The tone is warmer and more responsive...
I have a 1970 Gibson... It was my dad's, he bought it 5 years before I was born, and I ended up with it... This has been played, not hung on a wall, so it isnt in BRAND NEW condition, but it is in good condition considering its age... But the simple TRU FACT is that the wood has dryed... Even kept in ideal humidity/temperature environments, wood is going to dry over time... Ignoring my improvements in technique and the advancements of tecnology, my Gibson is 35 years old...This guitar does not sound like it did 10 years ago! Wheter or not you like the new or old tone is subjective. The FACT remains that the wood has changed the tone of this guitar!!!
Some of the modelling amps these days have pretty good tones.. And I cant argue with the fact that they make good bedroom amps, but I gigged with my Line6 Duoverb twice, and sold it before our 3rd show... At home I was getting some useful tones that sounded good jamming by myself... On stage in front of over 500 people, I kept getting lost in the mix.. Even running through our 1000-watt PA! This was a 100 watt guitar amp, so it wasnt about power... The tones just werent punching through.... I got a 40 watt tube amp and the warm colorful tones punched right through the mix!
That being said, I respect the opinions of EVERYONE... Just dont state your opinion as though it were fact... If you dont know about the characteristics of wood, then dont preach about them... Dont turn you emotions into statements worded as fact...
That being said, I am not a "vintage" person either... I dont bias between a purchase based on wheter it;s old or not.... But I can tell you this... I have owned many amps over the years, and they started off as Solid State, and moved to Digital modellers, and now I own a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe Tube Amp... I really like the combination of tone and price... I got mine from a music store for $350... Since bringing it home, I have done many mods to it trying to get "Better" tone out of it... Guess how I have managed to do that? Well, if you said I have been on the internet and purchased "vintage" tubes, capacitors, resistors, transformers, and such, then you are absoliutely correct... Todays components are made completely different than those of yore... And they should be... Electronic components are used in nearly every component in a home or office.... They SHOULD be built better and made less expensive..... But I can tell you now that a ceramic capacitor does not color the tone of the amp... A metal film cap WILL.... Tubes are the same way... As are most other components... The only modern compnent I am planning to purchase is a Weber California 12" Ceramiic speaker, and its charateristics are based on the old Jensen's....I dont expect it to sound exactly like one,but I am confident I will be satisfied with the results...
I have a 2004 American Strat... The wood is still relatively "green"... I STILL LOVE this guitar... But again, I have modded it with the foil-in-oil caps, CTS tone Pots, etc... The tone is warmer and more responsive...
I have a 1970 Gibson... It was my dad's, he bought it 5 years before I was born, and I ended up with it... This has been played, not hung on a wall, so it isnt in BRAND NEW condition, but it is in good condition considering its age... But the simple TRU FACT is that the wood has dryed... Even kept in ideal humidity/temperature environments, wood is going to dry over time... Ignoring my improvements in technique and the advancements of tecnology, my Gibson is 35 years old...This guitar does not sound like it did 10 years ago! Wheter or not you like the new or old tone is subjective. The FACT remains that the wood has changed the tone of this guitar!!!
Some of the modelling amps these days have pretty good tones.. And I cant argue with the fact that they make good bedroom amps, but I gigged with my Line6 Duoverb twice, and sold it before our 3rd show... At home I was getting some useful tones that sounded good jamming by myself... On stage in front of over 500 people, I kept getting lost in the mix.. Even running through our 1000-watt PA! This was a 100 watt guitar amp, so it wasnt about power... The tones just werent punching through.... I got a 40 watt tube amp and the warm colorful tones punched right through the mix!
That being said, I respect the opinions of EVERYONE... Just dont state your opinion as though it were fact... If you dont know about the characteristics of wood, then dont preach about them... Dont turn you emotions into statements worded as fact...
Lopp
New member
That is so true, Allen, that many posts are based on opinion as opposed to fact. Interestingly enough your own post was almost completely based on opinion.
hueseph
New member
Facts. Ok. Well, the fact is that many of the classic tones can be reproduced. Even the response of a tube amp can be copied. The fact is that sound is not nearly as ethereal or esoteric as many would like to believe it is. Although standing in front of a modified Marshall Plexi is an experience in itself, so is playing through an emulated one through headphones. Not the same experience but something to be appreciated for sure. Vintage igear is great if you can afford it and the room to store it. For the rest of us there is technology. Vox tonelab is a sweet rig.
lpdeluxe
The Precision Bass Guy
The scary thing is that it's all a crap shoot. A vintage axe may be IT
...or it may not.
A new one may be IT
...or maybe not.
Listen with your ears and not your eyes or your checkbook. There's a lot more music in any one of those boxes or amps than you're ever going to pull out.
Me, when I find something that works, I buy it. The LAST F*****G THING ON MY MIND is whether it's new, or vintage, or a damn Crackerjack premium.
...or it may not.
A new one may be IT
...or maybe not.
Listen with your ears and not your eyes or your checkbook. There's a lot more music in any one of those boxes or amps than you're ever going to pull out.
Me, when I find something that works, I buy it. The LAST F*****G THING ON MY MIND is whether it's new, or vintage, or a damn Crackerjack premium.