F
fgonza2
New member
you may have a tension problem. Are the tension rollers moving down as the tape winds so they trigger a stop ? can you shoot a video when that happens ?
ron-e-g
Member
Well, of course it wouldn't do it when the camera was rolling! A shot this anyway. Showing the tape travel with the 456. As you can see still tape rising above the guides.
B
Beck
Guest
From the first video your reel tables appear to be slightly too high, especially the left reel. And on the right either the reel table or the reel itself is wobbling. If a reel table or motor shaft is bent it can cause that sort of instability and tape rising. If the reel flanges are terribly bent they'll also wreak havoc with tape travel. Your reel tables and reels should be aligned as such that you don't have tape rubbing on the metal reel flanges. The sloppy tape winding is also indicative of off center motor shaft, reel table or reels.
M
mdainsd
Member
I dont know it this is contributing to your problem, but that take up reel is rubbish! Do you have another?
ron-e-g
Member
Beck, Curious why you say that "they" appear too high. I actually set the reel heights prior. The take-up was only slightly low. Thanks.
mdainsd,
I didn't even notice that, until I posted the video. I then went to try and even out that wobbly flange. The bottom one was fine. Plus..these reel centers aren't the best fitting, Lots of play! Both these Clampers and the MS-16's.
mdainsd,
I didn't even notice that, until I posted the video. I then went to try and even out that wobbly flange. The bottom one was fine. Plus..these reel centers aren't the best fitting, Lots of play! Both these Clampers and the MS-16's.
M
mdainsd
Member
Well, that is where you should start. There should be no play whatsoever in the "clampers" or hold downs as I call them This means both up and down wise as well as revolving wise. play in the hold down will wreak havoc with tension and tape path tracking. I see what to me is way to much motion in the take up tension arm. It appears to be moving back and forth with each revolution of the take up reel. Not supposed to be that way.
ron-e-g
Member
mdainsd,
Sorry, I think maybe I was not very clear. When the hold downs, are not tightened. There is play between the inside circumference of the reel, and the hold down O.D. Thats all. pretty normal I think, but a pain, none the less. I am tending to lean towards the servos at the Tension arms or servo at take-up side. They do seem to bounce a lot. Also keep in mind, the previous owner replaced a broken spring at the supply T.R., And adjusted the tension settings. I, assume they did, as the tension pots cover was loose, and the screws missing. Also, they have made their own diagram in the manual..marking their positions. And who knows what else has been done.!
Personally..I am not impressed with their work ethics. Left a part of the broken spring on the deck plate, then hooked the spring up backwards, left off the screws to the cover, and about half off the back cover Plate(s).
I changed out the bent reel. Not so bad now. Also I don't see any marks or gouges on the hold downs so I'm thinking the small variations in the reels is acceptable or even normal. But I don't know for sure.
Sorry, I think maybe I was not very clear. When the hold downs, are not tightened. There is play between the inside circumference of the reel, and the hold down O.D. Thats all. pretty normal I think, but a pain, none the less. I am tending to lean towards the servos at the Tension arms or servo at take-up side. They do seem to bounce a lot. Also keep in mind, the previous owner replaced a broken spring at the supply T.R., And adjusted the tension settings. I, assume they did, as the tension pots cover was loose, and the screws missing. Also, they have made their own diagram in the manual..marking their positions. And who knows what else has been done.!
Personally..I am not impressed with their work ethics. Left a part of the broken spring on the deck plate, then hooked the spring up backwards, left off the screws to the cover, and about half off the back cover Plate(s).
I changed out the bent reel. Not so bad now. Also I don't see any marks or gouges on the hold downs so I'm thinking the small variations in the reels is acceptable or even normal. But I don't know for sure.
B
Beck
Guest
I'm looking at the first video (post #18) at about the 2 minute mark in the video where the camera is focused on the first tape guide in the tape path... the tape is already trying to fold there because of downward pressure form top of the guide. The only thing in the tape path before that is the reel itself, which indicates it may be adjusted too high.
ron-e-g
Member
OK. But as I read the manual (and I could be totally off) the Tension rollers height/azimuth and the Tach roller azimuth and Pinch roller, and capstan azimuth all come into play. No pun intended! especially in REW and FF modes.
So I'm a little confused when you say " The only thing in the tape path before that is the reel itself" I assume when you say "first" tape guide you mean the one on the far left or Guide #1. But, there is a Tach roller, and Tension roller, in between it, and the reel.
So I'm a little confused when you say " The only thing in the tape path before that is the reel itself" I assume when you say "first" tape guide you mean the one on the far left or Guide #1. But, there is a Tach roller, and Tension roller, in between it, and the reel.
T
The Ghost of FM
Banned
How was the winding tape pack quality before you started off in this project to rotate the lifter arms and rotate the guide posts?
I ask because it wasn't stated if there was uneven tape packs or issues with the tape curling up on the guide posts before you started this project. Nor did you state if it was only that one roll of tape that shows the issues or if all your tapes do. These details are important if we're to offer you valid advice.
If all was well, then you shouldn't attempt to mess with anything other then what you had done on the lifters and guide posts. But if you then start messing with reel table heights and tensioner arms before establishing that what you initially did was the problem, then you only end up compounding the issues and making it harder to get it all aligned as it should.
Cheers!
I ask because it wasn't stated if there was uneven tape packs or issues with the tape curling up on the guide posts before you started this project. Nor did you state if it was only that one roll of tape that shows the issues or if all your tapes do. These details are important if we're to offer you valid advice.
If all was well, then you shouldn't attempt to mess with anything other then what you had done on the lifters and guide posts. But if you then start messing with reel table heights and tensioner arms before establishing that what you initially did was the problem, then you only end up compounding the issues and making it harder to get it all aligned as it should.
Cheers!
B
Beck
Guest
OK. But as I read the manual (and I could be totally off) the Tension rollers height/azimuth and the Tach roller azimuth and Pinch roller, and capstan azimuth all come into play. No pun intended! especially in REW and FF modes.
So I'm a little confused when you say " The only thing in the tape path before that is the reel itself" I assume when you say "first" tape guide you mean the one on the far left or Guide #1. But, there is a Tach roller, and Tension roller, in between it, and the reel.
My bad because I used the generic term guide when I was alluding to the tension roller on the left in particular, right after the tape comes off the reel and before it hits the tach roller. So to clarify, it's possible the reel table is too high and/or the tension roller is too low. And again on another point, I've only seen such uneven tape pack when reel tables or reels are wobbling.
F
fgonza2
New member
increase the back tension and test again. use the EDIT mode as stated in the manual FF and REW back tension.
ron-e-g
Member
How was the winding tape pack quality before you started off in this project to rotate the lifter arms and rotate the guide posts?
I ask because it wasn't stated if there was uneven tape packs or issues with the tape curling up on the guide posts before you started this project. Nor did you state if it was only that one roll of tape that shows the issues or if all your tapes do. These details are important if we're to offer you valid advice.
If all was well, then you shouldn't attempt to mess with anything other then what you had done on the lifters and guide posts. But if you then start messing with reel table heights and tensioner arms before establishing that what you initially did was the problem, then you only end up compounding the issues and making it harder to get it all aligned as it should.
Cheers!
Excellent point! A question I've asked, but unable to answer. First, I'd like to clear up one point, if I can. I realize it's been awhile since you've worked on your MS-16. But as I see it, the tape guides (1&3) are screwed to the Head Ass'y from underneath, and are set heights. Meaning, if they are loosened, and spun around it doesn't change their height, along as there is no shim added, and they are tight.. The height adjustments is only in the top part with the hex screw there. Is that a fair assessment..you think?
As to the before and after. I should probably explain here. I bought this recorder from a guy that was a musician, and he got it from a friend that had a studio.
When I got it home, I had already planned to align and calibrate it. I initially, put on a calibration tape (15 ips) that came with this recorder, to test all the channels at once. Firs thing I notice, is not all channels meters are registering. OK, I say it's just traveled 700 miles in the back of my Sons pick-up..no biggie. Then I notice the reels stopping. So I hit play again...it plays then stops. Then, I start thinking..Sticky tape syndrome!! I stop there. Next, I completely clean the heads and transport parts. It's then, I notice the JRF sticker on the Head Ass'y. So by then I see the recorder is in pretty decent shape, but high mileage. Aside from needing the cabinet re-painted, and the transport buttons replaced, on the auto locater. They were pretty worn. I had some from the MS-16 purchase earlier. I also had, a new cover plate for that A.L. so,I installed that too. I then connected a signal input to each channel one at a time to check for input. The first two (1&2) 1, didn't work and 3 and 5. I stopped there. I opened the front cover to the channel cards, and swapped channel 4 with 1, and they both worked! I swapped them back. I then, went through them all with the same procedure..swapping non working to the place of known working. This worked, as I got them all registering the signal. At this point, I decided to remove them all including the DBX cards and spray the connectors with Deoxit D5. It's at this point, I grab a tape and thread it up. Thats when I notice, the flat spotted lifters, and see the tape shaving at the top of the right lifter. Upon closer inspection I see the guides 1& 3, also have significant flat spotting. That's where the post picks up, about spinning the lifters.
All I have to go by, about what the prior condition of this machine, or how the transport was, is to look at the reels supplied by the previous owner. I didn't know if what I'm looking at, is reels that haven't been used since 2000 or 1998 or.., and at what point, someone replaced the broken tension arm spring, and started monkeying around with the tension settings...Like I've done!
But they appear to be fine. Some unevenness to them but not bad.Beck,
Thanks for clarifying that for me. I set the reel heights,and TR, per manual, but that's not to say I did it wrong. I'll definitely re-check them. As for reel wobble, I'll take a closer look at that. But initially, they don't seem any better or worse than the MS-16. Possible they both have wobble!
fgonza2,
I don't have the proper tentelometer.
Can't do the 350 and 500 g. measurements required. Mine is the T2 H5 UMC
Last edited:
F
fgonza2
New member
take a picture of the position of the potentiometers for tension and just increase the back tension temporarily to run the experiment and see if the behavior changes. Then you can roll them back into their original position.
ron-e-g
Member
Somebody already beat me to it! FF(T) and REW(T) are already fully clockwise!
How am I suppose to set this...40.91 really? .91? where's that? I'm a inches guy!
With this?
How am I suppose to set this...40.91 really? .91? where's that? I'm a inches guy!
With this?
ron-e-g
Member
Honestly..I find it EXTREMLY hard to check the Tension Rollers height with that "Kidney" shaped plate in the way. 
Also, I don't know how significant it is, but the left Tension arm spring looks different to me. I suspect this is the one that was replaced as it is newer looking, and the piece I found on the deck plate looked like one of these. Also, it had been hooked to the actual arm backwards. Meaning front to back instead of back to front. It had the long section before it radius-ed around to the 90 degrees.
Also, I don't know how significant it is, but the left Tension arm spring looks different to me. I suspect this is the one that was replaced as it is newer looking, and the piece I found on the deck plate looked like one of these. Also, it had been hooked to the actual arm backwards. Meaning front to back instead of back to front. It had the long section before it radius-ed around to the 90 degrees.
Last edited:
W
wkrbee
Active member
The Ms-16/Atr-16 had two different types of pinch rollers.The first was flat,the second a barrel shape.You can tell the difference by laying them on a flat surface.If the deck originally had a flat PR,it was set up for the flat one.Putting a barrel PR on one set up for the flat one,(or vice versa), means you have to do the complete "fine tape path" adjustments in the manual from start to finish-there are no shortcuts.The pots,(play and back tension), are not used for tension adjustment,they just setup the reference position for the tension arms.The spring anchors are used for tension adjustments per the manual.Since so many things have been changed,you may want to start at the beginning.The roller arm height can be used to fine tune the tape curl in FF/RWD, IF things are set up close.Put a tape on,wind half on the TU reel and rock the tape back and forth using the RWD/FFD button Watch the tape when it reverses direction.Adjust the tension arm height in VERY small increments.The left side tension roller can affect the right guide,(and vice versa). This presupposes that everything else is close.
ron-e-g
Member
Wow! wkrbee, that's just short of, monumental information! In all my research, and reading, I've never heard that. My obvious question, Why, two different Pinch Rollers?
When you say "roller arm height" are you referring to the tension roller themselves? What you say about the left roller effecting the right guide, I have found to be exactly True. I managed to get things real close by the end of today. By re-setting the table heights, marking the TR with masking tape so I would have a reference point,and adjusting the 1&3 guides. It's not yet perfect, but it's a lot better.
I will now revisit the manual (for the umpteenth time)! and study the tension roller arm, tension checks.
Thanks for your great advise.
Gotta say, there are so many helpful people here! Thanks to you all, for your patients with me, on this. Even if I never get this completely sorted out, I am very thankful, and appreciative to you all!
When you say "roller arm height" are you referring to the tension roller themselves? What you say about the left roller effecting the right guide, I have found to be exactly True. I managed to get things real close by the end of today. By re-setting the table heights, marking the TR with masking tape so I would have a reference point,and adjusting the 1&3 guides. It's not yet perfect, but it's a lot better.
I will now revisit the manual (for the umpteenth time)! and study the tension roller arm, tension checks.
Thanks for your great advise.
Gotta say, there are so many helpful people here! Thanks to you all, for your patients with me, on this. Even if I never get this completely sorted out, I am very thankful, and appreciative to you all!
Last edited:
ron-e-g
Member
wkrbee, I have combed my manual, and see no reference to tension adjustments, related to the spring anchors. Just an illustration in Fig. 7-20 page 7-14.
Could I be missing it?
Answer: I decided to cross reference My MS-16 manual, with the ATR60-16 manual. They are different! The Tension Arm (tension) Adj. you refer to wkrbee, is indeed described in the MS-16 manual. But not the ATR60 manual.
What manual do I use? one, the other, or combination of both?
Last edited:
witzendoz
Senior Member
Can I suggest using a Vernier calliper to get the measurement correct, you use the stem to set height measurements.
Alan.
Alan.