Tascam ES-60 Synchronizer

[GumbyD]

Will it work with my TSR-8?

So I am new to the analog world and enjoying it very much.

I picked up a TSR-8 in great condition a year ago from a pawn shop, and have been on a quest to sync it to my DAW (nuendo) since then.

I know the ES-50 or the Midi-izer are the common choices for this. I recently picked up a piece of gear called an ES-60, which I was hoping would sync my TSR-8 via the accessory 2 port. It appears to be slightly more geared towards video equipment, but it does have a 50 pin "EXT IF 1 (Parallel) port as well as a 9 pin "Accessory 2" port. Problem is, the "Accessory 1" port on the TSR-8 is a 37 pin cable and the "accessory 2" port is a 15 pin.

I noticed some of the pin assignments on the ES-60 are unused... maybe I could build a 50 pin to 37 pin cable?

Does anyone have experience with the ES-60? Hopefully this thing isn't just a paperweight. I'd love to feed it timecode and have it control the transport speed of the TSR-8. I have the manuals for both, but I admit i'm a bit lost.

 

[sweetbeats]

I just PM'ed you back.

Your post here answers some of my questions.

The ES-60 only speaks SMPTE. IIRC it does not do MIDI, so if you are wanting to sync the TSR-8 to a DAW the ES-60 is a recipe for headaches. This I know from my experience with the ES-50 and trying to slave my Tascam 58 to a DAW. Had to stripe a track of SMPTE in the DAW but because the ES-50 was designed to have two tape machines attached (whether audio or video or a combination) it wouldn't properly setup to the 58 and I had all sorts of runaway issues. It could be managed but in the end there were all sorts of compromises being made. I have a strong hunch that the ES-60 is the same way.

Did you get a manual for the ES-60?

If you want to pursue this then you need to get in touch with the folks in Analog Support at Teac in California and ask them:

1. Will the ES-60 interface with the TSR-8
2. To fax you a copy of the wiring diagram for the interface cables (master and slave)

Cables can surely be made but be mindful that the wiring diagram is important because it will show other components that go in there...for instance the slave cable I made to go between my ES-50 and my 58 was a double-shielded SCSI cable I dug out of the boneyard (50-pin cinch on one end) to which I lopped off one end and connected on the 38-pin ELCO I needed fro the ACCESSORY port on the 58...got the ELCO parts at Redco, and used the diagram that Jimmy at Teac sent me. In that cable there are three diodes and a resistor that get placed according to the diagram.

Not trying to scare you but at best you are trying to mate two devices that weren't really designed to be mated (the TSR-8 and ES-60 IIRC), and trying to setup a sync relationship between one device that is best suited to speak SMPTE, and another that is best suited to speak MTC (MIDI timecode) using a sync box that (IIRC) only speaks SMPTE. So it can be done, but it will be a project and may not bring you the results you are hoping for.

Analog Support at Teac can be reached at (323) 727 7617.

The device manufactured by Tascam to do what you are wanting to do is the MTS-1000 MIDIizer.

 

[GumbyD]

thanks for pulling me back from that cliff

Sounds like I just narrowly avoided going down a real rabbit hole. I'll probably just try to unload the ES-60 and go for a Microlynx. I think you may have some experience with one of these units possibly?

I spoke with Jimmy at TEAC and he was awesome. Told me the same thing that you did...

Me: "So from what it sounds like I should ditch the ES-60... I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on a Midiizer if I can find one or a Timeline Microlynx.

Jimmy: "The only thing I'd pull the trigger on is a shotgun"

Lol, and the sad thing is I know he's right and I still want to do it.

So I know I'm supposed to slave my DAW to a smpte track on the tape, but I
still would like to get this thing synced up, even though I may run into some drift problems. I've found a Microlynx for sale in Chicago but I need a specific 40 pin to 37 pin cable (70D094) to do this. I've got the schematics for it.
I'm still trying to decide if I want to make one myself or farm the work out. Do you recommend the Microlynx? And if you have previous experience with one, how hard was it to interface with your reel to reel?
Thanks!
-Dave

 

[sweetbeats]

Wait-wait-wait...

You are wanting to slave the DAW?

If that's the case then just find an old JL Cooper PPS-2 or something like that.

Keep in mind that what you are doing by slaving the DAW is throwing out all your nice precision digital clocking. You are, in essence and in reality, slaving your computer to the capstan motor in the TSR-8. This is what I always say:

MANY people do it this way, and with success, but your DAW will constantly, maybe completely imperceptably but constantly, be making tiny adjustments in the digital word to adjust to the relative inaccuracy of that mechanical motor. Slaving your analog deck to the DAW (having the capstan motor speed and such locked to the MTC coming off the DAW) is (can of worms opening) the intended way for things to work...I'm speaking from a professional standpoint. Why would you want your DAW to slave to a tape recorder?? That's just me, and like I said many, MANY people do it that way. Me and a couple others here are in the vast minority. I leave it to you to decide, and yes it is cheaper and much more simple to slave your DAW because you don't need special gear like the MIDIizer or the Microlynx to control the capstan...and you don't need all those fancy wierdo custom cables, but based on the fundamental principles of slaving a DAW to a tape recorder I will always face the battle to have the gear to slave the deck.

The PPS-2 and others like it are cheap and simply take the SMPTE code you record on track 8 of the TSR-8 and convert it to MTC and then that connects to your computer MIDI interface via a MIDI cable from the MIDI out on the PPS-2, and set Nuendo to slave to incoming MTC. Done.

So consider that and choose your solution. I'm set in my complicated expensive idealistic ways.

BTW, either the MIDIizer or the Microlynx will work great for the "other" option. The Microlynx is a more professional solution. I don't have mine yet.

 

[GumbyD]

slaving the tape to the computer

No no no, I didn't write that last post clearly. I'm totally with you. I don't want to sync the computer to the tape for those very reasons.

I'm going to go ahead and open the worm can. I located a Microlynx, and I also managed to find the cable schematics for connecting it to my TSR-8. My plan looks like this:

DAW (Nuendo or PT8) sending MTC (or smpte?) to the Microlynx

Microlynx sending capstan control signal to the TSR-8 via the 37 pin "Accessory 1" port.

Does that look right to you?

I know there's a word clock accessory you can purchase for the Microlynx, but I have no idea where to go about finding one of those. So I'm thinking the microlynx takes a smpte signal from my DAW and then converts it to the Tascam Accessory 1 signal. Right? Thoughts?

 

[sweetbeats]

You've kind of got the idea...the connections would be like this:

TSR-8 track 8 out ==>> audio cable ==>> Microlynx <<== MIDI cable <<== DAW MIDI interface

AND:

Microlynx ==>> slave cable ==>> TSR-8 Accessory input

The microlynx receives the SMPTE code from the TSR-8 and the MTC from the DAW, compares them, and then varies the speed of the TSR-8 capstan to get the two codes to match up (the microlynx of course has to convert one of the codes to match the other, but you get the idea).

The reason for the wordclock accessory is if you have multiple digital devices in your system and you want to sync your analog deck to the system master wordclock or something like that.

You don't need it.

Pianodano is an experienced Microlynx user and has quite a number of digital devices locked to a master clock in his studio. He would likely know more about practical applications for the wordclock accessory on the Microlynx but I don't know if he'll chime in here or not. He pops in every now and then.

 

[GumbyD]

brilliant

It's all becoming clear now. Such a unique and amazing generation of hardware devices. I'll keep updating the post as I get my gear together and start putting this stuff together! Pictures should be forthcoming.

 

[GumbyD]

The plot thickens

So my ES-60 shipped with a 240 v power supply. I live in the USA, so I had to shop all over the far reaches of the internet to find a 120v power supply for the thing.

Anyway, following our previous discourse I was on the verge of just calling it quits and putting the ES-60 up on ebay. But when I plugged it in, I found that it has built in presets for a number of tape transports (all of them made slightly later than the TSR-8). One of which is the Tascam ATR-60. I read up on it a little bit more, and found out that the ES-60 will "auto-calibrate" to an ATR-60 or ATR-80. I'm sure it's a much bigger pain in the ass than the ES-60 manual makes it out to be. But, that would be huge.

Now I'm thinking I'll get the microlynx, sync the TSR-8 to my DAW, and then use the ES-60 to slave an ATR-60 as well. That would give me 24 tracks of digital that i could transfer/back up into my Nuendo rig. I have a Toft ATB-24 console, and would gain a certain OCD satisfaction from having my board filled out with analog.

So there goes my paychecks for the next three months
And probably countless hours of getting this thing to work.

 

[ausrock]

Gumby,

Firstly, when looking to synch my ATR-60 and my Fostex D160 16 trk h/disk recorder, all advice I recieved was to use the tape as the master and let the digital chase it.........I purchased a PPS-2 but to date, haven't had time to connect it all up and "play".

Secondly, the ATR-60 manual only mentions the ES-50 as an accessory for synching, presumably, the ES-60 was released after the manual was published. Re the ATR-60 manual........it is quite a sizeable "document" with numerous large fold-out pages, copying it would be a task that would cost you your ATB console including shipping to Aust .............the fact that my scanner isn't talking to my PC is incidental .

 

[GumbyD]

Es-60

Thanks Aus!
Still waiting on the details for getting my ATR-60 from Berklee, CA, to Austin TX. Might have to make the drive, which would be intense.
I'm pretty sure the ES-60 was made quite a bit later than the ATR-60.

Can't find any good pictures of the ATR-60's connections.
I'm hoping the ATR-60 has some sort of transport control (probably either a 9 pin serial cable or a 50 pin parallel port). Do either of those ring a bell? The face that the ATR-60 pulls up as a preset in my ES-60 gives me some hope, but I think I'm going to have to just get my hands dirty and figure it out once I have the unit.

 

[sweetbeats]

I'm still betting that the ES-60 doesn't speak MTC...

Also, I bet the ATR60 has an ELCO connector on the back for sync interface...

 

[GumbyD]

es-60

So according to the ES-60 manual, the ES-60 can be controlled from
1. addressable 422 on the Tascam ES-61 editing unit
2. RS-422 on a video editing machine
3. midi on units supporting MMC commands.

This all comes in on a 9 pin serial port, which confuses me. I'm guessing I need to get my mac a way to send MMC down a serial port? maybe a card for it or something. Any thoughts?

 

[sweetbeats]

You're getting in deep...

To be honest I'd have to look over the manual to get a better understanding of what the ES-60 is all about, but your three bullet points are about controlling the ES-60 functions, not what "language" streams the ES-60 can handle and synchronize.

1. Yes it makes sense that the ES-60 can be controlled by the ES-61 controller.
2. It makes sense that the ES-60 can be controlled by a video editing machine...think about it like this: they are saying that a video editing machine can substitute for the role of the ES-61 controller.
3. The last one is a bit dubious as it is not clear if that statement is referring to the ES-60 (i.e. was it an option on the ES-60 to have MMC capability), or to an external machine (i.e. if a video editing machine, for example, is controlling the ES-60 via RS-422 as in #2 above and the video editing machine is MMC capable...). In either case we are still talking about remoting the ES-60 functions rather than what kind of protocols the ES-60 can work with and synchronize.

I hope that makes sense.

Does the ES-60 have an expansion slot on it, and/or a MIDI port?

Your questions about using the Mac as a controller...those are really deep issues...not knowing the specifics of the protocol used leave it a mystery. Maybe the manual gets into those specifics, but my guess is they weren't designing the ES-60 to be controlled from a computer workstation as those weren't the mainstream controllers of the day, and even if you did know the specifics of the controller protocol (let's just say its standard serial interface), you would still either need a software interface to handle the commands or would need to write your own...I doubt the protocol utilizes MMC so its not like you can utilize a MIDI editor to send MMC to the ES-60 via a MIDI to serial converter...

 

[ausrock]

Can't find any good pictures of the ATR-60's connections.
I'm hoping the ATR-60 has some sort of transport control (probably either a 9 pin serial cable or a 50 pin parallel port). Do either of those ring a bell? The face that the ATR-60 pulls up as a preset in my ES-60 gives me some hope, but I think I'm going to have to just get my hands dirty and figure it out once I have the unit.

The transport controls are all on the ATR AND on a standard/basic Remote Control Unit (RC65-C) which usually was mounted on a roll around stand along with the Record Function Control Panel and connect to the ATR with a type of D-Sub plug. An alternative to the RC65-C was the AQ65-C Auto Locator which is a more comprehensive combined transport/locator unit which connects to the ATR's "Accessory" socket with an Elco 8016 connector.

It is essential that your ATR comes with at least the Record Function Control as this is where you arm tracks, etc.

I'm still on my first coffee for the day so I hope this kinda makes sense and if time allows, I'll try and take some pics and post them up later.

ChrisO

 

[ausrock]

OK, sorry for the pic quality, two were photographed from the manual.

First is the ATR and the Roll Around remote stand with the AQ65-C Auto Locator, the Record Function Panel and the RC65-C Remote Control Unit at the bottom. Second is the connections diagram from the manual........ and third is my AC65-C and Record Function panel with the D-Sub and Elco plugs on top.

 

[GumbyD]

thanks a bunch ya'll

unfortunately, the ATR-60 fell through. Guy on ebay never responded to my messages, or would give me shipping info. I'd report him, but I'm not that upset.

still plugging away at my original microlynx/tsr-8 dream. i think it's best to start (sort of) small, then get deep.

by the way, anybody recommend a good 2 track platform that i could dump mixes to?