Synthesizer, or controller, differences?

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NewbMediaGuy

New member
I'm trying to decide on what type of keyboard I want/need for my thing I'll be calling my home studio. Basically I want to get into using Midi, and I've looked at some Midi controllers, but they don't seem to have very many cool features like some synthesizers do.

I've had a lot of fun at Guitar World just playing around on the synthesizers, tweaking the knobs and dials making all kinds of different sounds I think would be sweet to put in a song. The thing I'm not sure of though is so far I know MIDI doesn't transfer audio, just data, so I would think that those cool sounds I make on a synthesizer wouldn't transfer over to my computer, and would probably sound much different from what I expected. Am I right or wrong there?

So basically I want a synthesizer, but how do I get the sounds from a synthesizer over to my computer? Could I use this synthesizer as a MIDI controller also? Or would I be able to do the same stuff with a hardware synthesizer, only using a MIDI controller and some software as the synthesizer? If I could go the software route I'd rather do that because I'd assume it would be much cheaper, but what are the pros and cons?

Okay, if I said something that doesn't make sense, please correct me so I don't become even more confused than I already am ;) Also, I'm always interested to hear other peoples thoughts and opinions on my setup, or what they like to use themselves.

So far I think I'm going to be getting Cakewalk's Project 5, but to be honest I still don't understand what the program does exactly, I just figure if it's aimed for people that want to make dance kinda music, then I'd be interested in it (because that's what I want to make for now)
 
So basically I want a synthesizer, but how do I get the sounds from a synthesizer over to my computer?
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Connect the audio outputs of the synth to the audio input on your soundcard and hit the record button.

Could I use this synthesizer as a MIDI controller also?
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Yes.

So far I think I'm going to be getting Cakewalk's Project 5, but to be honest I still don't understand what the program does exactly, I just figure if it's aimed for people that want to make dance kinda music, then I'd be interested in it (because that's what I want to make for now)
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You're better off with something like Home Studio 2004 so you can learn audio and MIDI basics first.
 
brzilian said:
You're better off with something like Home Studio 2004 so you can learn audio and MIDI basics first.
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I was thinking about that too, but if I did get Home Studio I'd at least want the XL version, which is $150, and Project 5 is just $50 more than that.

Do you know how different the learning curve is between Home studio XL, and Project 5? What are the main differences between Home Studio XL and Project 5?

Hey back with the synthesizer thing....is it possible to just use a midi controller then some kinda software to act as the knobs and slider bars like you would normally find on a regular synthesizer? Or would I just be better off with a regular synthesizer?
 
NewbMediaGuy said:
I was thinking about that too, but if I did get Home Studio I'd at least want the XL version, which is $150, and Project 5 is just $50 more than that.

Do you know how different the learning curve is between Home studio XL, and Project 5? What are the main differences between Home Studio XL and Project 5?

Hey back with the synthesizer thing....is it possible to just use a midi controller then some kinda software to act as the knobs and slider bars like you would normally find on a regular synthesizer? Or would I just be better off with a regular synthesizer?
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Hey, NewB! Where in Socal are you? I'm out in the Inland Empire.

I'm probably not qualified to answer your Home Studio/Project 5 questions. Go to www.cakewalk.com and read the descriptions of what each is capable of. They are quite different. If you're just starting in MIDI, I would suggest getting something very basic to start. Cake offers many upgrade paths and they tend to be very fair in their pricing.

In answer to your controller question- Yes, that's exactly the purpose of MIDI controllers. Whether you'd be better off with a synth is hard to answer. Obviously a synth gives you sounds of its own which can be great and add to your pallette. You can still use the keyboard to control your softsynths, but you might not have the array of assignable knobs and sliders on a hardware synth you'd get on a controller. How much that matters is for you to decide.

Ted
 
tedluk said:
Hey, NewB! Where in Socal are you? I'm out in the Inland Empire.

I'm probably not qualified to answer your Home Studio/Project 5 questions. Go to www.cakewalk.com and read the descriptions of what each is capable of. They are quite different. If you're just starting in MIDI, I would suggest getting something very basic to start. Cake offers many upgrade paths and they tend to be very fair in their pricing.

In answer to your controller question- Yes, that's exactly the purpose of MIDI controllers. Whether you'd be better off with a synth is hard to answer. Obviously a synth gives you sounds of its own which can be great and add to your pallette. You can still use the keyboard to control your softsynths, but you might not have the array of assignable knobs and sliders on a hardware synth you'd get on a controller. How much that matters is for you to decide.

Ted
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Project 5 is Cakewalk's answer to Reason. IF you're not doing electronica type music, it will be quite useless. HS2004 is an all around audio and MIDI production program not geared for any type of musical genre. It is basically Sonar 2.2 minus certain obscure features pro's would have a use for.

Regarding the synth, any synth built in the last 5 years has assignable knobs and sliders that can control external MIDI module. Both my Roland XP30 and Yamaha 6 can do that with ease.
 
Why do you want the XL version? The difference is just a few plugins. I mean, if you've got the money and it's no problem than go for it, but I think a better expenditure would be HS04 and the VST adapter. The VST adapter is indispensible. It will give you access to HUNDREDS of free VST's, many of which will cover the same ground that the XL plugins do. Just a tip.
 
tedluk said:
Hey, NewB! Where in Socal are you? I'm out in the Inland Empire.
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I'm also from the IE, well, the far eastern part in Yucaipa.

Anyway, I was watching the videos on cakewalk.com on Project 5, and even though much of the stuff I don't exactly know how to use, it looks like something I could figure out and have a lot of fun with. I wish Home Studio had a demo, because I know as soon as I get my sound card and some kind of midi controller I'll download the Project 5 demo, and if I'm completely lost using it then maybe I will stick with Home Studio.

Hey does anyone know of some good books for learning Project 5? I recently bought a book by Chris Hawkins for Reason 2.5. He has a series of books called Ignite! and I really like this one I have, but I can't find one in these series written for Project 5. I've seen some bad reviews for the Ignite series, so I'd like to see what others rate as a better book for someone new to these programs, but most specifically Project 5.
 
I'm not aware of any books available for Project 5 at this point. Googling turned up only this DVD for it: http://musicbooksplus.com/product_info.php/cPath/43/products_id/5083

I have no idea if it's any good.

From what I know of Project 5 it takes some pretty decent computer horsepower. Is your system ready for it?

From what you're saying, you don't have a soundcard yet? What are you looking at?

I do this as a hobby so I don't think I'm an expert, but I've got a fair amount of gear at this point. If you want to talk about it or need any help or advice, I'll do my best to point you in the right direction.

Ted
 
First post here :D

As lykwydchykyn suggested, I'd suggest going with something like Home Studio 2004 + VST adapter, or even better IMO: Cubasis VST 5.0. It's the 'light' version of Cubase, which you may find yourself using in the future if you turn pro. It already comes with full VST support (heck, the maker invented VST) and it has all the feature's you'd need.

I'd invest in a good quality controller that you'll be comfortable with. It's good to have pitch and modulation wheels or a joystick, plus a few knobs on the controller for real-time tweaking.

What kind of soundcard do you have? If it supports ASIO Drivers (possibly 3rd party with some cards), you should be perfect to go. Even though I use hardware myself, software VST instruments can be very powerful. Many electronic music today is made using VSTi's! There's massive amounts of free VST software instruments available... check out http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~thman/VST/vst-allinstr.htm . The Triangle II synth can make a lot of the sounds you hear on a hardware synth.
Native Instruments ( www.native-instruments.com ) makes high quality VST's worth checking out. Their sampler Kontakt is exceptional.


Now... after I've said all this.. A good 'bread and butter' synthesizer could be a valuable investment at some point in time. I'm talking about synths such as the Korg Triton Rack, Yamaha Motif Rack, Roland Fantom Rack, or any other "ROMpler".. Then you'll have a handy assortment of sounds at your fingertips - whenever you need some strings or a flute or whatever else. If you have a controller, then "rack" versions of synths are ones without keys, which you can connect to your controller.

See what you can do with some free VST's and a sequencer first though - it's a hugely unexplored world of sound and music out there, your's for the taking!
 
tedluk said:
From what I know of Project 5 it takes some pretty decent computer horsepower. Is your system ready for it?

From what you're saying, you don't have a soundcard yet? What are you looking at?
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I just finished building a computer, it has a P4 3.0Ghz processor, with a gig of ram, and then I'm planning on getting the M-Audio Delta 1010lt sound card, probably will be getting it within the next couple weeks, most likely with a midi controller of some kind.

I'm still stuck on what program to get though, I'm almost thinking of just getting Acid Pro 4.0 because I've used Acid in the past and found that extremely easy to do some cool things, except many times I would use Sound Forge along side with it. I've just heard that Acid 4.0 doesn't do as many things with MIDI that other programs do, so I dunno. The main thing I didn't like about Acid, was that it didn't really allow me to create my own sounds from scratch....which is EXACTLY what I want to do.

I think so far my best bet is to just get my soundcard, midi controller, and start downloading some demos and see what ones I like the most.

But to kinda get back on track, does anyone have any suggestions for a good midi controller? I don't really want to spend much more than $400, unless it's really worth the extra cash of course.
 
Sounds like you're covered in the computer department!

This is my third attempt at a reply! I've had two crashes. I hope I can get through it this time.

I'd still recommend Home Studio XL to you. It's $150.00, has looping creation and playback abilities, decent MIDI implementation and comes with and supports DXi softsynths. I imagine that you could add VSTi support via a wrapper and you'd have access to all kinds of sound creation possibilities. Best of all, you'd then have an upgrade path to SONAR when you're ready for it.

Choosing a keyboard is highly subjective. There are controller boards within your budget from M-Audio, Edirol, Studiologic, Novation, Evolution and Midiman. Go to GC or Sam Ash and try them out to see what you like. Get as many knobs and sliders as you can! lol

If you want a hardware synth, you're going to have to look at around $500.00-600.00 minimum. That would get you an Alesis 6.2 or maybe a Kurzweil KME61 or Korg X5D. If you don't mind used, look on E-bay, you might still be able to scare up a bargain priced E-mu PK6.

I've got a mix of both hard and soft synths. I sometimes like having everything right in front of me with dedicated hardware, but it's hard to beat the deals on softsynths and there are some really good ones for free or very little cash.

This is a great time for music technology! I can't believe what we have access to for next to nothing. It's simply incredible the options we now have.

I hope this helps a little. Feel free to write me if you have any other questions.

Ted
Yay! I made it all the way through!
 
tedluk said:
Sounds like you're covered in the computer department!

This is my third attempt at a reply! I've had two crashes. I hope I can get through it this time.

I'd still recommend Home Studio XL to you. It's $150.00, has looping creation and playback abilities, decent MIDI implementation and comes with and supports DXi softsynths. I imagine that you could add VSTi support via a wrapper and you'd have access to all kinds of sound creation possibilities. Best of all, you'd then have an upgrade path to SONAR when you're ready for it.

Choosing a keyboard is highly subjective. There are controller boards within your budget from M-Audio, Edirol, Studiologic, Novation, Evolution and Midiman. Go to GC or Sam Ash and try them out to see what you like. Get as many knobs and sliders as you can! lol

If you want a hardware synth, you're going to have to look at around $500.00-600.00 minimum. That would get you an Alesis 6.2 or maybe a Kurzweil KME61 or Korg X5D. If you don't mind used, look on E-bay, you might still be able to scare up a bargain priced E-mu PK6.

I've got a mix of both hard and soft synths. I sometimes like having everything right in front of me with dedicated hardware, but it's hard to beat the deals on softsynths and there are some really good ones for free or very little cash.

This is a great time for music technology! I can't believe what we have access to for next to nothing. It's simply incredible the options we now have.

I hope this helps a little. Feel free to write me if you have any other questions.

Ted
Yay! I made it all the way through!
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I second tedluk's suggestion for HS2004. You still have all the functionality of ACID 4 plus you get real MIDI integration.

As far as controllers go, I would keep an eye out on eBay for something like a used Korg M1, T3 or 01/w. They can be bought for $300-400 all sound better than the X5D and make use of the FS keybed which is regarded as one of the best out there (its used in the Korg Tritons and Yamaha Motifs).

The QS series is really nothing to write home about in terms of sound and the E-Mu PK6 is cheap for a reason - its construction and keyboard action leaves a little to be desired.
 
I'm looking at some of the M-audio controllers, but I'm getting confused with the thing with USB. I know what USB is and how it works, but is USB better than regular MIDI? Do these controllers allow you to choose whether you connect it through USB or MIDI, or is it USB only?

More specifically, I'm looking at the M-Audio Radium series, and comparing it to the Ozone Keyboard. The Ozone is smaller, with less keys, but more expensive than the Radium 61, which has fader bars the Ozone doesn't have. What's the difference and why is the Ozone more expensive?
 
NewbMediaGuy said:
I'm looking at some of the M-audio controllers, but I'm getting confused with the thing with USB. I know what USB is and how it works, but is USB better than regular MIDI? Do these controllers allow you to choose whether you connect it through USB or MIDI, or is it USB only?

More specifically, I'm looking at the M-Audio Radium series, and comparing it to the Ozone Keyboard. The Ozone is smaller, with less keys, but more expensive than the Radium 61, which has fader bars the Ozone doesn't have. What's the difference and why is the Ozone more expensive?
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My experience has been the M-Audio controllers feel very cheap. Like I said, you are better off buying a used synth.
 
NewbMediaGuy said:
I'm looking at some of the M-audio controllers, but I'm getting confused with the thing with USB. I know what USB is and how it works, but is USB better than regular MIDI? Do these controllers allow you to choose whether you connect it through USB or MIDI, or is it USB only?

More specifically, I'm looking at the M-Audio Radium series, and comparing it to the Ozone Keyboard. The Ozone is smaller, with less keys, but more expensive than the Radium 61, which has fader bars the Ozone doesn't have. What's the difference and why is the Ozone more expensive?
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A USB interface is going to be what you find on everything now for getting MIDI in and out of your computer. It has pretty much replaced the serial interface at this point. I think you are misunderstanding the difference between MIDI and USB. MIDI is a protocol for communicating between instruments made by different manufacturers. USB is connection interface. You can send MIDI information through USB. In the past, this was usually accomplished through the joystick port on your sound card or a dedicated midi interface card.

The reason that the Ozone is more expensive is that it also has a stereo audio interface and mic preamp. The most common application for this device is for use with a laptop.

Brzilian makes some good points. I haven't used any of these boards so I can't speak to build quality though you have to figure that there are some compromises to hit such low price points.

I will say that I really like the feel of the Novation keyboards but I would find the small range of the Remote 25 limiting.

Buying a used Korg as Brzilian suggests? Well, those are older boards he recommends, classics though and hard to argue against. The only caveat would be making sure they are in good condition before purchasing. I have always had good luck with Korg gear and, for the most part, it's solidly built.

From what information you've given us, I'd still say the PK6 might be a good choice. I agree that the keyboard isn't the best, but the soundset is more appropriate for the kind of music you indicate you're interested in. The point might be moot, however, as they're not in production and they disappeared pretty quickly when the price dropped to $399.00.

Hope this helps. It can be confusing for sure. Again, the best thing you can do is hit Guitar Center and Sam Ash and any other local stores and play as many of the boards as you can. You'll get a feel for what you like and that will help you to narrow your choices.

Ted
 
Best Keyboard Under $300

As a beginner in midi i have to ask, HOW MUCH DOES THE SOUND OF YOUR
KEYBOARD MATTER if you're going to be in midi anyway? Also, any thoughts on what brand I can get under $300 that would be workable for a fairly decent piano/organ sound?
I have 2 keyboards already but they are old, out of tune and offer 150 sounds that all sound like shit. So I'm thinking I need to buy something just to feed into Sonar, bearing in mind that I'm expecting to alter the sound a lot after the track is into Sonar.
By the way, do any of you folks ever record just straight in analog, from the keyboard to Sonar, without using midi?

thanks for any thoughts you may have..

best
 
lopie said:
As a beginner in midi i have to ask, HOW MUCH DOES THE SOUND OF YOUR
KEYBOARD MATTER if you're going to be in midi anyway?
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The sounds of your keyboard matter because they are one possible source for the sounds you use. You can use soft-synths within SONAR as well or, if you're using a consumer sound card, the onboard synth on it (not recommended due to the poor quality of most of them). Any synth that can respond to MIDI input is a possible source for the sounds you use.


Also, any thoughts on what brand I can get under $300 that would be workable for a fairly decent piano/organ sound?
I have 2 keyboards already but they are old, out of tune and offer 150 sounds that all sound like shit. So I'm thinking I need to buy something just to feed into Sonar, bearing in mind that I'm expecting to alter the sound a lot after the track is into Sonar.
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Youre not making a lot of sense here. If you're not planning on using the onboard sounds from whatever instrument you use then I suppose it doesn't matter what you use. I suspect that you're not clear on how MIDI works. MIDI contains instructions, performance gestures, if you will, but not the actual performance itself. Just like a piece of sheet music doesn't contain the actual performance, only the instructions on how to recreate it. Yes, once you record a MIDI track into SONAR you can manipulate it in many ways, but, ultimately, it has to be run through a MIDI instrument, either real or virtual, to wind up with a finished piece of music. If your desired result is to create a CD or DVD then you will need to render the MIDI tracks to audio before mixing them down to stereo or surround. In doing so, you will have to commit to the sounds for good.

If you want to use soft-synths exclusively, then you could look at keyboard controllers rather than hardware based synths. Read the previous posts for several recommendations or, better yet, go to your local music store and try them!

By the way, do any of you folks ever record just straight in analog, from the keyboard to Sonar, without using midi?
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I can't speak for others, but most of the time I'll stick with MIDI initially so that I have the option of trying different sounds and changing the performance in various ways before deciding. Of course, lots of things have to be recorded directly to audio-vocals, acoustic instruments, etc.

Ted
 
Thanks for explaining the USB thing, I already knew the differences, but I thought I had heard people having problems with USB devises on other forums....but maybe they were just specifically citing a bad USB product. So if I don't even need the MIDI connectors, maybe I don't need the M-Audio Delta 1010lt card? I specifically wanted it for it's good price, and MIDI connections, but maybe I could get something different?

I'm not really looking for a step down from that, I'm actually thinking of getting something a little better. Perhaps the Omni studio, which is basically the M-Audio Delta 66 and the Omni I/O box, I could use that to control my monitors volume right? I just recently found out monitors don't have their own volume knobs....so I'll need something for that.

As for keyboards, I'm looking at the Evolution MK-449C, (49 key), and it's 61 key equivalent, the MK-461C, leaning more towards the 61 keys....even though I probably don't need that many keys...it'll fit perfectly on my computer desk ;) lol
 
Sound cards! That's a subject we could talk about for months. The M-Audio cards are very popular and seem to work well for people. Personally, I have two Soundscape Mixtreme cards which are excellent but not very popular. (Though the company has been resurrected and is set to blow away a lot of people with their latest hardware offerings. Take a look: www.soundscape-digital.com )

As with all of these decisions, you need to start with some idea of what you're trying to accomplish and then find the hardware or software that allows you to reach those goals. In the case of sound cards the questions would be what kind of connectivity do you need? How many mics would you be using at once? If you record at home and play everything yourself using one or two keyboards and a lot of virtual instruments and only need a mic to record vocals then you might only need a card that offers a pair of mic inputs and 2 or 4 analog inputs. If, on the other hand, you have a band that likes to record live with miked guitar and bass amps, drums, and two or three vocal parts then you're going to need a lot of inputs or maybe consider submixing before you go into the card.

As always, there will be trade-offs based on your budget, and you'll have to make some compromises but, the good news is that all of this stuff is ridiculously inexpensive these days. When you realize the level of quality that it's possible to produce in a home studio these days it is truly amazing.

Believe me, you can NOT have too much MIDI connectivity. You might not have much equipment yet, but you will. For a number of reasons, it's always better to have dedicated streams for each MIDI device if you can. I got an Edirol UM550 to handle most of my MIDI chores but I'm still using my midisport 2x2 as well.

USB, like all technologies, suffered from a lot of compatibility issues when it was new. With the newest mobos, OSs, hardware and drivers, I'd be surprised if you encountered any problems now.

Ted
 
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