Suggestions?

[Mikee]

Hey guys.

I've been playing music (singing and acoustic guitar) for years now and I've always recorded my acoustic stuff using nothing but a Samsung Q10 and Mixcraft 3.0 - 4.5 for my DAW. About a year ago I got into a REAL band and started playing "hardcore" music. Screams, synthesizer, bass drops, along with the usual dual guitars, bass, drum kit, and clean vox. I decided that I really want to start building a home studio consider no one in my area knows anything about recording from what I've heard. I don't know much either, but I happen to know that the locals here are doing it wrong.

So here's my question.

I own an SM58 (My live vocal mic) and I have a near brand new Dell XPS packed to the brim with all the upgrades offered six months ago. (I'll list specs if you want.) I've never used FL Studio, but I hear it's the best choice considering I only have a few hundred dollars to get me started.

What I need is obviously new software, some good advice on what to record in what order, and some sort of hardware that enables me to record hopefully more than one instrument at a time.

I've always thought that recording the drums first with a scratch guitar track (Preferably both musicians playing together to keep that "vibe.") then stick in the final rhythm track (If it's needed) lead guitar, bass, synth/keys, then vocals and then screams. If that's the right way of doing it, then what do I need to record guitar AND what do you suggest for micing a full drum kit in a small 1 bedroom apartment?

I also would like to know if it's best to hang blankets flush to my walls to reduce echo, or if it's best to hang them at angles?

Sorry about the massive post. I figured it'd be better to get everything out instead of making a dozen posts as I get each question answered.


Thanks guys! Nice to know that there's a community for the struggling musicians out here!

 

[mjbphotos]

Read around here first.
Try Reaper for software - its free until you want to pay for it.

You'll need an interface - probably Firewire, if your Dell is so equipped. Choose the interface based on how many tracks you want to record at one time.
The blankets aren't going to do much for you sound-wise.

 

[Mikee]

Sweet, sounds good.

I figured blankets would just reduce some echo and give me a better sound in case I have to mich each guitar amp separately. The first band I was in recorded that way.

Also, as for interface, could you give me a suggestion to look into? I'd like something with 4 - 6 tracks that's around or under $200.

I'll look into Reaper right now. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Jeff_D]

Last time I looked a FL, it was more geared toward electronic music (like making beats). That may have changed. In any case, Reaper rules. Well worth the $60 license. Blankets won't do much for you other than maybe knock down some flutter echo. Read around and you'll find that low frequency peaks and nulls are a much bigger problem for small rooms. So, you have the computer, get Reaper for software, you'll need room treatments, an interface and mics. Search around here. There's lots of talk bout the latest interfaces (most are firewire and have mic pres built in, like say a Motu 8pre).

 

[Mikee]

Reaper is amazing. I'm surprised it's as simple as it actually is. I figured I'd have a pretty steep learning curve after Mixcraft, but it's very cut and dry. There's a lot I've got to learn about VST/Plugins and such, but I'm sure I'll pick it up as I go. I'm not going to pay for the software until I actually start recording.

I'll look into firewire interfaces since my XPS does support it. Are there any cheap ones I should avoid for sure? Or would it be a good idea to start small and simple?

Thanks for the info. I'll ditch the blanket idea unless I really start getting some issues. I'll also look into how to minimize the low frequency peaks and nulls once I get everything set up.

EDIT:

After a quick search I found this:
http://sewelldirect.com/Behringer-P...=cse&cvsfa=1306&cvsfe=2&cvsfhu=53572d38343638
It's a little podcast recording package that seems like it might be a good place to start for only $179. Any comments on that?
(It says it's out of stock, but I've found several of them for sale in other places.)

 

[Jeff_D]

Check out the studio building forum here for acoustic treatment. What you want will be called bass traps. They're made from rockwool or compressed rigid fiberglass (not the fluffy stuff you put in your walls).

As far as equipment to start, you have to ask yourself what you want to accomplish. Since you're in a band now, that may change your objective. If you want to do drums, you'll want an 8 channel interface- a typical mic setup might be kick, snare, 2 overheads and a mic on each tom plus maybe another channel for a skratch guitar track or something. You want to be able to record each of those mics to a separate track in Reaper. Something like the Motu 8Pre will work nicely (~$550) or the Presonus FireStudio. If you just want to do simple stuff like maybe a guitar and a vocal at the same time, then a 2 channel interface will be fine. Of course you'll need mics too... You really just have to ask yourself what your objective is, what quality you want and how much $ you want to spend...

 

[Mikee]

Hey, thanks a lot Jeff.

My step dad has a massive set up for live equipment in his basement. He doesn't have anything I really need for recording other than a nice 16 channel Behringer mixer which I'd love to use to premix my setup, but then again with Reaper I really don't need to. I'm going to look into some bigger firewire interfaces so I can record a guitar and an entire drum kit all at once. I can record everything else one at a time afterward.

If I did get a 2 channel interface, could I use a power mixer to mix my drum mics into one signal and then output them through the interface?

I'm going to look into a drum mic kit. Probably a five piece so I can mic the kick, snare, high hat, and the overhead. Maybe even set up my two 58's to catch the toms until I expand my kit, probably with two 57's.

Also, what's your view on a pop filter? Is that a necessity right off the bat? I know they're cheap but I'm on a very tight budget until I start bringing in some money.

EDIT: Totally spaced this. Headphones. Do you know if there are multiple headphone jacks on either of the afore mentioned interfaces? Or am I going to need a headphone preamp? Eventually I want to run six sets of headphones so everyone in whatever band I'm recording can listen and give their input on whether another take is needed or if the levels need to change, etc.

 

[Jeff_D]

Hey, thanks a lot Jeff.

My step dad has a massive set up for live equipment in his basement. He doesn't have anything I really need for recording other than a nice 16 channel Behringer mixer which I'd love to use to premix my setup, but then again with Reaper I really don't need to. I'm going to look into some bigger firewire interfaces so I can record a guitar and an entire drum kit all at once. I can record everything else one at a time afterward.

If I did get a 2 channel interface, could I use a power mixer to mix my drum mics into one signal and then output them through the interface?

I'm going to look into a drum mic kit. Probably a five piece so I can mic the kick, snare, high hat, and the overhead. Maybe even set up my two 58's to catch the toms until I expand my kit, probably with two 57's.

Also, what's your view on a pop filter? Is that a necessity right off the bat? I know they're cheap but I'm on a very tight budget until I start bringing in some money.

EDIT: Totally spaced this. Headphones. Do you know if there are multiple headphone jacks on either of the afore mentioned interfaces? Or am I going to need a headphone preamp? Eventually I want to run six sets of headphones so everyone in whatever band I'm recording can listen and give their input on whether another take is needed or if the levels need to change, etc.

If you really need to run that many headphones, you'll need (and want) a headphone amp.

I don't recommend spending much on heaphones. They're pretty much worthless for mixing. Sure, you'll want a few for tracking, but I wouldnt spend more than $20 or $30 a piece. Instead, spend all you can on a set of studio monitors. If you're doing rock stuff, then I'd say budget at least $500 for a set of powered monitors with an 8" driver. When you get to the point of dropping that kind of cheese on monitors, you'll want to spend some $ treating the acoustics of your space to get the most out of your monitors.

AS far as drum mic kits, I've never seen a drum mic kit advertised that made me say, "hey, thats everything I need to record good sounding drums". The kits are usually pretty cheap and the mics provided reflect that (que someone to come along a post a link to an actual worth-while drum mic kit, lol). The 58's are fine for toms and even for a snare. I'd recomend a purpose-built mic for the kick like a AGK D112 or the Audix D6 or the Shure Beta52. The most important mic for a good drum sound (IMO) are your overheads. You'll want a nice pair of small diaphragm condenser mics. There are some cheap options out there, but shop diligently because there is plenty not all mics are created equally. Also, on a budget, I'm using three ES57s (SM57 knock-offs) that actually work pretty well for toms. Also, opinion, but I like the Audix I5 WAY better than the SM57. Also, I mic'd a hi-hat once and it ended up muted in the final mix. YMMV. My drum mic setup is...
Snare - Sennheiser e609
Kick - AKG D112
Overheads - pair of Octava MK012s
Toms - 3 ES57s
That works pretty well. I used a Cad mic kit years ago, and it was pretty bad.

Pop filter. You can get by with out one, but they're cheap. I use a pop filter for a few different things. Obviously, I use it to stop the "plosives" natural in most peoples voice. Also, though, I use a large diaphragm condenser mic for vocals and I don't want the singer right up in the grill of the mic like you might see with a live singer and a handheld dynamic mic... so, the pop filter acts as a spacer to keep the singer an appropriate distance from the mic. If you get into this and find that the "p"s are just too much, then get the pop filter. thats WAY easier than trying to fix it after its recorded.

If you want to start off with a two channel interface and you want to use a mixer than, yes you can do that. If you are using a powered mixer, you'll want to make sure you arent using the powered / speaker outs otherwise you'll destroy your interface (lol, you probably knew that). You'll want an auxilary output or monitor output or something that isnt outputting speaker wattage. Keep in mind that a two channel interface can be two mono channels or one stereo channel (depending on how you set the track input in Reaper). Having everything all mixed the way you want prior to it being recorded would be an incredible stroke of luck, imo, so that route has its limitations.

If they ol'man has a live setup, maybe he has some mics you can borrow.

 

[Mikee]

Alright.

I actually traded my dad an old laptop for a five set piece of samson's. I'm buying two Audix i7's for my overheads, and my PreSonus FP10 will be here in a few days.

I'm stoked!

Thanks for all the help guys. When I start making some cash, I'll be upgrading, but I know for now, I'm going to be in better shape than any other studio around just because of the FP10 and Reaper. I've been watching tutorials on youtube all week as well. I'm determined to know my stuff by the time I record my first band, which is next week.

If I find any other questions, I'll post here.

Thanks again!

 

[moresound]

If I find any other questions, I'll post here.

First band ! Next week ! You better start posting your questions now.

 

[Mikee]

Ha ha.

Well, I've had a pretty decent history in music, and my step-dad has all the hardware covered. The only thing I'm really going to need answered is a question on software.

For one. What ASIO driver do I need? Or what's recommended. I thought there was only one, but since I started researching tonight, I realize that there are a lot of options. Some stating they don't support this and that. So what is Reaper best used with?

EDIT: Alright. Another question.

I'm playing with some guitar recordings to get used to my current setup (A behringer RCA/USB input device my dad had hidden away.) I'm running an electric guitar through a processor then through my amp, lined out to a mixer, then into the computer via RCA/USB. But it sounds terrible. The effect I have through my amp sounds great, but through the computer I have a horrible static grunge noise that isn't anything like it sounds through my amp. I know the RCA solution isn't great, but it's just for testing. When I get my interface, I'm sure this won't be as big a problem, if at all.

My question is: What's the best way to set up a guitar with effects?

Some bands are obviously going to be hell bent on a certain effect, where others probably wouldn't mind me using a VST to add effects to their clean guitar sound. So 1. How do I route my guitar signal (For RCA and an audio interface, which skips the mixer board and will run via firewire) into the computer with effects?
And 2. Where do I go for some good VSTs and VSTi's? I want for starters some decent guitar effects, next a sort of customizable drum kit, and finally a synth and some effects that I can use to spice up some of the more poppy bands.


My setup: My plan is to set up the entire band with all their gear. I want to run guitars and bass through my interface, AND through their amps and the vocals and drums just through amps/acoustic. That way I can record each guitar as a separate track with no bleed through problems like a microphone would have with a full band. Then, now that I've got a powerful full band feel out of each guitar, I can use them as final tracks, if they sound good, or scratch tracks. The drummer can then throw on some headphones and I can mic him up, and record him playing to the mix we just recorded (with no vox, of course) Then I'll do vocals.

Is that a good idea? I honestly think it would work best because you get a true full band feel out of every instrument. The last time I recorded with a band, the guy made us record guitar and drums at the same time with headphones, then guitar 2, bass, vocals, synth. To me it felt like we totally lost the true feel of our band because the power and emotion of each musician and instrument was gone. Any input?

 

[Jeff_D]

I prefer recording a band all together *mostly* live too, though I do usually overdub the vocals later and also any guitar leads or other possibly tricky misc parts that might otherwise screw up an otherwise good take. But, I never found a good way to do that with only 8 tracks, especially if you want multiple signals from each guitar, etc. My setup now is capable of 16 tracks simultaneous into Reaper. My track list today would look something like this...
1 Kick
2 Snare
3 Overhead left
4 Overhead right
5 tom - high
6 tom - middle
7 tom low
8 bass guitar
9 guitar 1
10 guitar 2
11 lead vocal
12 backup vocal 1
13 backup vocal 2

If I had to trim that down to 8 tracks, I'd lose the 3 vocal mics, one of the guitars and one of the tom mics (you could probably place a mic between the high and middle tom and get something usable). Or, I'd keep all 7 drum mics and pick one person to play along a bass or guitar as a scratch track.



Also, I think the result you got from the direct line from your guitar amp is pretty typical. I've NEVER gotten anything usable that way. If you have a good sounding amp, then turn it up and put a mic in front of it. If you have a bad sounding amp or dont have a place where you can turn it up, then maybe look into a "pod" type modeler.


And, keep in mind too, that you've kind of only scratched the surface by wrapping your mind around the process and setup that you're getting. Next you'll have to learn how to get what you really want out of it. There is a steep learning curve, and although I think you'll be surprised and happy with your first endeavor, I think you'll find that you'll be constantly looking for ways to improve. Good luck and post back and let us know how it goes...

 

[Mikee]

Are you using an electric drum setup? How do you stop bleedthrough from guitars and vocals into your drum mics? Especially overheads, as they really seem to take in outside noise.

My step dad is using mesh heads on his setup in the basement and they're all triggered through an effects brain. So he's mixing his signal out through the rca setup right now. That's the only way I can see to stop bleed through unless I record drums alone which is the plan.

I'll record all the guitars first, everything that can't pick up other sounds easily. I'll have them turn away from the drums so their pickups won't catch any frequencies just in case. Then I can do drums (A track for each drum) separate then vocals. I figured that's the closest to live I can get. Then I'll let the guitars throw in any squeals or solos or anything difficult that they missed or wanted to wait on through the first scratch. And if one of them messes up, then it's simple to go back through, give them headphones, and let them record again.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Before you do anything, you need monitor speakers and a monitor amp.

The best gear in the world is worthless if you make your recording decisions based on headphones or cheesy speakers.


As far as hanging blankets: Not only will they not help, they will make things much, much worse. All of the air dies and all of the mud stays. A much better solution on zero budget is large furniture. Especially book cases with oodles of books. Move what you can into your recording room. Put it in corners/problem areas.

Above all else remember: Way over half of your budget needs to go towards monitor speakers/a monitor amp. Speakers aren't fun. Speakers aren't a new "toy". But you're ice skating uphill otherwise.

 

[Mikee]

I just took a "next day shipping" gamble with Musician's Friend with a little pop filter and scored 20% off my next order. I'll be buying some studio monitors with that. I honestly cannot afford any more than about $200 though. And at the moment, my step-dad has a full set of main Peavey's and some very nice subs. The only thing wrong with them is that the horns are worthless. I'm going to see about using them for the final mix though.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I'll be buying some studio monitors with that. I honestly cannot afford any more than about $200 though. And at the moment, my step-dad has a full set of main Peavey's and some very nice subs. The only thing wrong with them is that the horns are worthless. I'm going to see about using them for the final mix though.

Don't do a final mix with bad horns. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

Honestly, don't jump the gun here. Hold off buying anything until you can put $500-$600 into a monitor system.

You really do get better recordings with great monitors and bad equipment than you do with great equipment and bad monitors.


Think of it this way:
There are two digital artists of equal skill. They are doing a digital painting of the same object.

One of them has a modern 1600x1200 LCD display properly calibrated. This guy is using MS Paint and a mouse.

The other artist has Photoshop and a pressure sensitive Wacom tablet. But he is looking at the signal from his computer broadcast over the air picked up by a dinky antenna on top of an old 1970's television. There is snow all over the screen and it warps a bit here and there.


What one of those two guys makes the most accurate picture of whatever it is they're painting?


Audio is the same way.

 

[Jeff_D]

No electronic drums here. A little bleed is manageable and isn't the end of the world (as long as you don't have a bunch of really bad playing bleeding into the other mics). If your electronic drum set controller has a MIDI jack, then you might be able to run that into your new interface and still keep each track separate, PLUS still have all 8 analog channels to use. Taking the rca output from the drum module means you wont be able to adjust the mix of each drum after its recorded. I don;t know anything about MIDI, but lots of people here do and will be able to help with that.

 

[Jeff_D]

oh, and if you only have $200 to spend on monitors, then put that in the bank and wait until you have $500+. For rock music where you'll have dense mixes with heavy drums and lots of guitars, etc, a cheapo set of monitors wont even get you close. To be honest, I doubt those PA speakers will either, but, work with what you've got until you're ready to get what you need. Otherwise, you'll be wasting your money... Check out the studio building forum. You'll probably want to spend another $300-$500 to get started treating your room. Blankets wont do much for you. Foam is worthless. You'll want rigid fiberglass (Owens Corning 703 or equal) or rockwool (Roxul, etc).

 

[Mikee]

Well, to be totally honest, right now I'm in my parent's basement, but at the end of april, I'll be living in Tucson in an apartment with my girlfriend. (I'm just home saving up cash before I hit the road again) I doubt she's going to let me treat the walls of our living room in our 1 bedroom apartment.

She thinks I might be able to rent a soundproof room in her school (University of Arizona) for free since she's a student for when I need to record. But I don't know how long they'd let me use it. So I'm really considering getting into a storage unit, carpeting it myself, and buying a few of the treating kits from musicians friend or wherever and slap them on some pegboards. Then I can use the studio anytime I want, for as long as I want as long as I'm not breaking any noise ordinances.

About the monitors. I understand your point. But if I spent $200 on monitors, that are clearly going to be better than your average listener's speakers, wouldn't that be alright to start with?

I mean... if you use your analogy again...

Yes, obviously paint is going to shine better than the photoshop image. But... if you consider the fact that most viewers are going to have viewing monitors that are less than the monitor the photoshop user used, then they'd already be seeing a masterpiece.

I mean, no one's going to listen to the bands I'm recording with $500+ stereo equipment unless they're legit. And I don't think many people are going to mess with that at the moment since I'll be recording very indie bands with no label and no HUGE promise right away, or they'd probably be recorded by someone with much more experience. To be fair, I'll definitely invest some money into speakers. But for now, since I'm starting SOON. And want to get going right away, I'll stick to better than average speakers, and hope for the best to get me started.

 

[Jim Lad]

You may want to upgrade to Mixcraft 5.
Mixcraft 3 is pretty outdated by now.
5 is loaded with some very useful, new features.
Why not download a trial version?