Subs and the YSM1P

[CoolCat]

Well I went and bought a sub today. Yorkville YSSM-1 to compliment my YSM1P's. All I can say is
WHY DID I WAIT SO LONG TO DO THIS???????
My room is well treated. I've used room eq wizard and treated some more. I couldn't get a good mix bass-wise for the life of me. The bass response on the YSM1P's is unusable now in my opinion. I believe the sub has saved my CD. I needed to remaster it and it took hours and 5-15 remixes guessing to get it right. I do 1-3 mixes now to get everything balanced. Anything beyond that is just remixing to get another flavor, not make it listenable. I'm literally stunned by this. The Yorkvilles are well respected for the price-range so I'm sure the monitors are fine. The mids/high mids/highs are quite accurate. What I hear in the studio is what I end up hearing on all my other test systems. Bass is night and day difference now.

YMMV but I would never go back to mixing/mastering without a sub now unless I had some really $$$$ monitors but the Yorkies need a sub.

Nice graph after the sub was put in. I have yet to do that here to see what the end result is as far as room response goes, likely this weekend. The footswitch is a seriously cool feature. It's really almost ridiculous the difference it makes in my studio.
Cheers!

Way ahead of you...I have 4 8'tall 4" thick bass traps in the main corners. I have a 5'x4'x4" wall panel trap on each of the long walls as well. Above them I have a 2'x4'x4" wall/ceiling trap and a 5'x4'x6" ceiling cloud above my mix position. Believe me, it's the monitors...

moved from the other thread to this SUB thread. Hopefully others can chime in too. but in the meantime.... YSM1P and the YSS1.

What made you go with the YSS1 vs others?
I'm somewhat confused as some say the 8" and 10" is tighter which makes sense, yet the higher end subs commonly go with 12", as the Adam $1700 is 12"?
Sealed, Ported, Passive cabinets another topic, Footswitch IN/OUT other NOTEs to make and take.

of course like usual no one frkn carrys Yorks around here in this city of...frkn amazes me? arrrg. So most likely I'll be forced to trying another brand. tough decision.

Hope to see your freq chart, that'd be interesting.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

CC, I said it before, and I know you are learning and having fun with this stuff, but I think you're getting too hung up on some of the design and construction details. Don't worry so much about sealed, ported, 8", 10", etc. Worry about the specs and actual performance.

Woofer size is kind of like cubic inches (or liters) of displacement in an automobile engine. You can say some things in general about that, but the truth is that there have been plenty of 4 cyninder, 2.2l engines out there that generate more torque and horsepower than some 6 cylinder, 3.4l engines. Same thing with many 6-cyl vs. 8-cyl designs. And that's not even counting whether they have turbos on them or not.

In the prosumer market there are device that the manufacturers call "subwoofers" that are all over the map as far as how they operate. I go back to my three examples in the other thread; the M-Audio 10", the Tannoy 10", and the Mackie 12". First off, there are important differences in the speaker design itself (the Tannoys have much longer and faster excursion than the M-Audios) even when they are the same diameter. Then there's the sizes af the magnets and voice coils and how they match up or do not macth up ith the amplifiers.

But never mind all that. Look at their response and crossover design. Those two are often matched for a reason:

- The M-Audio has probably the loosest and most aenemic sub bass of the three, a top end that goes to 200Hz, and a crossover that'll go that high as well. This unit is designed more as a woofer than a true subwoofer, and that's reflected in it's advertising as being a good unit for those with lacking mains.

- The Tannoy is also a 10", but has more power and a longer and tigter throw. It is designed with a built-in (AFIK, unswitchable/unadjustable) low pass at ~150Hz. I see no info there regarding an active or adjustable crossover. It appears to be designed mostly as a general-purpose ajdunct sub for either stereo or 5.1 that is built to just pump low end below 150 pretty much regardless of what your mains are up to.

- The Mackie 12", which to my old-school way of thinking about subwoofers, is a traditional subwoofer; plenty of juice to pump it, a very steep (24dB/octave) adjustable crossover, a freq response almost a half-octave lower than the others, and a crossover that won't even go above 110Hz. A true subwoofer by the original dictionary sense of the word, but not suitable for those who need more woofer than subwoofer.

Each of these three "subs" are spec'd to handle different needs. Whether they're 10" or 12", passive or ported, etc. may be fun to look at and read about from a hibbyist perspective, but that is all stuff that is pretty irrelevant to making a purchase decision, compared to the actual end performance and purpose.

G.

 

[mamm7215]

I got the Yorkville because it was basically what was available immediately and I decided I needed one NOW! Finishing up this remastering has been a little hectic for me as I already have some copies already made/packaged and I HATE redoing things but this needed to be done.
I'm sure there are better subs, this was here/now/in my price range.

Coolcat, the devil's in the details as they say. Glen's right don't sweat the small stuff too much. I know it sounds like I do but I'm really just trying to get my studio monitoring "accurate" and found that - and this is important - in "MY" studio, I couldn't do that with just the YSM1P's. Other's may have the Yorkies, or even Behringer Truth's and find them fine, I dunno. I also have my crossover set to 150hz, which goes against "convention", but I seem to get a very good sound and translation using that.
I do know this, using the footswitch defeat (sooooo handy), it really shows what was lacking and helps dial it in. And what was lacking for me was shocking.

I'm also hoping to do some recals on the room response soon, hopefully this weekend. I'll post them when I get them done.

 

[CoolCat]

yes the "added woofer", don't need below 40hz... just the 150hz down.

I checked out the KRK 10 tonight and the Blue Sky Media Desk.

didn't hear the tight bass I heard on the Mackie 824's/8". The KRK's sounded better turned way down, but high volume they sounded similar to my JBL sub.
The KRK didn't have the footswitch either which is a "gearlust must" now.

the Blue SKY Media Desk really came to life when the switches were max'd volume and the Sub and Sats set to REF. Very impressed with the Blue Skys....the GC dewd didn't come down one penny on the BlueSkys, so I left. I would have liked to take them home for $400 for a test drive. I really cranked them up and listened for sometime, several songs....nice.

that was the only selection at the store the KRK10 ($300) and the BlueSky Media Desk(set only)($500).


Interesting note from JBL:
Low-frequency sounds are normally omnidirectional, meaning the listener can’t tell where they are generated from. However, frequencies between 75Hz – 150Hz can be localized, especially at higher volume levels.

 

[CoolCat]

Been playing with the sub this weekend.
Set it up dead center and at the same height as the ysm1p's.

Using a lame "Tone CD"... it only has a 50hz tone, then jumps to 100hz, then etc..low resolution.

Results:
At 50hz, the sub reproduces the tone, the YSM1p's nothing.
I can turn off the sub and the YSM1 are silent.

At 100hz the YSM1p's and the sub are both audible.


So obviously the crossover freq of the YSM1p is <100hz.
Unfortunately, I'll have to find some Freq Tone files that are more detailed from 20-200hz. So somewhere between the 50 and 100 lies my best crossover.

According to anechoic chamber specs the Yorkies-ysm1p can go to 40hz and are extremely flat...the sub even lower.

IMO, the best clarity in the midrange, was moving the bass freq to the sub around 120-150. I tried 80hz and it works ok. Maybe will play with some switches on the YSM1p's....I think at 1/4 Space theres -2drop in 20-80hz.

oh well...got a great night jamming with my son on a new song of his, and it transferred ok...not the subs fault on a few tones.

I can see with only one sub, it would be good to keep the sub freq at 75hz or less...and what Ethan was saying in the other thread, maybe a good reason to push for the 80hz range and the omnidirectional issue.

 

[CoolCat]

a few cell phone pics...I never claimed to be a photographer..

Drivers about 3ft from Floor on the PVC DIY stands...1 meter Triangle...
Each YSM1p 14" from the Sub...almost 20" from the wall.

hope to get some freq posts up, but I don't have much equipment for this.

mamm7215
hope you get time to post a few tests, I'm curious what some other YSM1p charts look like outside the anechoic chamber. it'd be interesting. imo..

 

[solo2racr]

One of the best ways I have found to setup a speaker system with one or more active crossovers is using this software. It's free to download and seems to do everything you can ever want to do. The only thing else you will need is a measurement mic. A Behringer ECM800 or equivalent will do. Place the mic where your head would be while mixing, feed the system pink noise from the software, watch the freq. graph, and just tweak the crossover levels and freq. till you get it right. This software is also good for helping you setup your room too.

 

[CoolCat]

downloading it now...looks pretty good and much more involved than my last one.

I have a Nady Reference Mic so maybe I can get this going some how...its like I need two systems, one to play the Pink Noise and the other to record it.

How did you use it? One PC?


thanks!

<update>
I got the download done..but there's something wrong with my configuration I can't figure out.
Setup- a EMU1820 dock and the pci card setup.

So it appears? the Visual Anlyzer isn't working with the EMU setup. Software says "the mixer is disabled for the input".
I think its looking to the Windows-Mixer.

 

[solo2racr]

I have mine setup to select the "line-in" although you may do better selecting "what u hear". All this is in the top center next to "help"

Also, be sure that any other sound interfaces you may have are off.

 

[mamm7215]

With the EMU, you'll have to insert a send on your line-in to wave l/r out as well. Ie: on mine, my mic input comes in on microdock 1R as per the room eq wizard suggestion. I then insert a send on that input channel to wave out l/r to create the loopback. This works for me. I'll post pics later but the sub worked great, I was able to really get back the 80-100 null after tweaking and better mic placement.
Also...Wow, CC talk about a wall of sound!! I have my sub under my mixing desk. No room for it above between the other 2.

 

[CoolCat]

thanks for the inputs big time.. ...I'll try again tonight. I was just totally lost on this "config" issue. I read the VA website but it of course can't detail every soundcard ever made.

yeah mamm's... there's some room here, when its a solo-songwriter hobby like mine, being clean and sparse is an option.

no recording studio here..no customers requiring a 100 cables and 50 mic's and 30 headphone sets.

if I do a band, its complete chaos, and ever shit mic laying around is used, crackling cables....and in the end it really sounds pretty awful, garage band like... but on the upside it can capture musical ideas. so that parts a blast.

 

[mamm7215]

Ya if I need to get a band to track with we just go to a local large studio with a Neve console and 2" tape. Haven't had to do that lately, and I'm done my remastering so hopefully I can get back to some new stuff!
Cheers.

 

[CoolCat]

ok, I got it working. (had to use two computers).

so I have a mic into a yammie mixer into the pc soundcard, LINE IN.

playing the pink noise through the monitors on the other.

Its tracking and all looks operational.

how and what do I set the DB level to?

and is the graph in Relative Amplitude....so -30 is ok? I guess I was looking for a matching chart to the YSM1P posted previously...??

thanks again.

 

[solo2racr]

If you click on "wave" on the top tool bar you should get the above window. You should be able to generate pink noise from there without having to use two computers.

It doesn't matter much what Db. you set it to. Loud enough for the mic to get a good signal but not so loud as to offend the neighbors. What your looking to get is a smooth transition in freq. and level between your mains and the sub. What I would suggest is to see where the mains roll off on the low end and set the crossover approx. 10hz above that. From there, adjust the volume of the sub to match the mains so they are at the same -Db. on the graph.

 

[CoolCat]

ok, got that.

lets look at the chart...i have some basic 101 questions or confusion.

the pic is an example of what I'm seeing. its not a DB SPL chart, so a bit confused on the slope from 20hz to 20Khz?

I was turning things up and the best I could get on the right was -30 or so.

pretty cool though when I did a sweep or a solo-freq, it'd show right up, real time.

but another confusing thing is there is so many oscillations it seems I can't get a flat looking chart.

and whats the 4096 mean?

thanks again.. I might try and reload the software again to use one PC.

 

[CoolCat]

another question is how do I just chart the 200hz to 20hz area?

thats what I want, I want to concentrate on squeezing 80hz from the main and only the omnidirectional bass from the sub.(80 and below).

until I can get a dual sub setup..

 

[solo2racr]

OK, I assume that your pic is from "capture spectrum". Don't bother with that. Just work with the spectrum graph on the main window. It's the lower graph between the two. The upper one is an oscilloscope. On the settings button on top, it will open in the "main" tab. Select FFT size as 16384. This will get your bandwidth to where you want it. In that same window, set the sampling freq. as high as you can (mines at 96000). In the main window again, the "wave" button on top will open another window and will let you generate a pink noise signal. Again, in the main window, the functions in the lower right will let you adjust the view of the spectrum. Set the X axis on octaves and 1/3 Db. steps. The Y axis, set the steps to 3Db. and adjust the bar up or down to get the range you need. Just to the left of that bar shows the range in Db. You can place your cursor over that and move the whole range up or down.

BTW......Don't use the graph I generated as as example. I used the first mic I found (a Peavey vocal mic) and not a measurement mic. You can see it's range is only from about 63Hz. to 6300Hz.

 

[CoolCat]

solo,
i'll do that "adjustment" tonight..

yes, mamm7215...
still can't get the studio-pc/EMU1820 system to work with the INPUT. Says Mixer is Disabled on the Input" when the software comes on.
Then after the error pop-up window,
there is no pulldown to select LINE IN, at the top right.

On my other pc its there? The EMU one it isn't.
No specialist on the EMU I use a default that has worked well so never re-configured the EWMU/Patchmix.

Oh well, its working with two pc's....a hassle, but working.

 

[CoolCat]

With the EMU, you'll have to insert a send on your line-in to wave l/r out as well. Ie: on mine, my mic input comes in on microdock 1R as per the room eq wizard suggestion. I then insert a send on that input channel to wave out l/r to create the loopback. This works for me. I'll post pics later but the sub worked great, I was able to really get back the 80-100 null after tweaking and better mic placement.
Also...Wow, CC talk about a wall of sound!! I have my sub under my mixing desk. No room for it above between the other 2.

I added a SEND to channel 5 which is DOCK 1L/1R....selected HOST WAVE 1L/1R. Is this correct?

(1) Problems receiving Recording Mixer of selected input device. Local Mixer Disabled.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think it's trying to tell you that you need to enable the proper record input in your Windows mixer (that little speaker icon in your system tray.) Make sure you are displaying the record side of the Windows mixer and not the playback side, and see what input source(s) may be disabled.

G.