Subs and the YSM1P

[CoolCat]

yeah that was my first guess too. when I checked out the windows-mixer, it only shows one selection for "recording" and .its WAVE.

playback has several options checked for the windows-mixer?

anyway....not getting anywhere yet.

but appreciate the suggestions.

 

[CoolCat]

yeah that was my first guess too. when I checked out the windows-mixer, it only shows one selection for "recording" and .its WAVE.

playback has several options checked for the windows-mixer?

anyway....not getting anywhere yet.

but appreciate the suggestions.

yes, I pulled out the old soundcard when I put the EMU-Studio dock and soundcard in. so things are bit trickier...

mamm7125, option appears to be the solution for this EMU soundcard issue.

 

[CoolCat]

With the EMU, you'll have to insert a send on your line-in to wave l/r out as well. Ie: on mine, my mic input comes in on microdock 1R as per the room eq wizard suggestion. I then insert a send on that input channel to wave out l/r to create the loopback. This works for me. I'll post pics later but the sub worked great, I was able to really get back the 80-100 null after tweaking and better mic placement.
Also...Wow, CC talk about a wall of sound!! I have my sub under my mixing desk. No room for it above between the other 2.

thanks! finally got it working with the EMU "insert" and your recommended settings! touchdown...

er...it looks better on a 1/3 octave setting.....the 1/9 looks pretty un-flat.

seems a few holes around 800hz and 75hz, and a bit of a spike around 1200-1600hz. the sub fills the low end under 100hz, still not filling the little 60-70hz hole.

apparently I don't have an anechoic chamber here.

Thanks for the nice software! this Visual Analyzer, is really pretty versatile too, a lot to learn on it...

 

[solo2racr]

Glad to hear you got it sorted out. The software can also be useful for helping you sort out your studio for treatment (what freq. and where) and for what I have used it alot for, designing and building my own speaker systems. And yes, I designed my own 2.1 monitor system. But that's a whole other thing I've been doing for over 15 years. Before I came across this software, I was using a Audio Control RTA.

 

[solo2racr]

seems a few holes around 800hz and 75hz, and a bit of a spike around 1200-1600hz. the sub fills the low end under 100hz, still not filling the little 60-70hz hole.

apparently I don't have an anechoic chamber here.

Thanks for the nice software! this Visual Analyzer, is really pretty versatile too, a lot to learn on it...

The 800Hz. hole is probably standing waves in your studio. The 75Hz. is probably the crossover point between the sub and the mains. The 1200-1600Hz. spike may be you speaker position relative to the mic. position. I'm not that sure about that one and would be better answered by someone that understands room treatment better than I.

 

[CoolCat]

yes, it'll keep me tweaking for a bit. Haven't had much software time yet, but its much more advanced software than my previous one.
its very nice needing one pc, one mic, just plug it in and measure and play...

so your home built speakers, did you measure ported versus sealed versus passive radiators? 2-way, 3-way?
I often hear of this cross-over problem, but are we talking a "mosquitoe sized" bump or a large roll off?

seems placement is a larger effect compared to the little switches on the back, per the mic. however the sub crossover was more noticeable.

whats more important, in your opinion, the 3ft (1meter) EE triangle or the graph flatness? I'll have to quantify this, but it seemed I got better graph with the sub woofer placed a bit further back or/ the sats further to the front?

just in time for Friday too....yes, success..

this is at 3db, 1/9th octave..

 

[CoolCat]

interesting short article> Anechoic measuring
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/test_loudspeakers.htm

here's a YSM1p/ 6" (no sub) (with F&A EQ)

cutoff from sub at 150hz.

3db at 1/6octave. pink noise.

 

[CoolCat]

check this room out... silence/idle below 0db, built on springs within a shell within a separate building.

but do the mixes sound good? harhar

 

[solo2racr]

so your home built speakers, did you measure ported versus sealed versus passive radiators? 2-way, 3-way?
I often hear of this cross-over problem, but are we talking a "mosquitoe sized" bump or a large roll off?

Cabinet design is normally dictated by the T&S parameters of the LF driver. I generally prefer sealed cabinets because of the smoother natural rolloff and they provide more control below the resonant freq. The drivers I have for my mains are a 5" woofer from ADS and a 1" soft dome from Alpine (about $300.00/pair of the ADS woofers and $200.00/pair for the tweeters.) I matched these up years ago and they work very well together. The software (and the RTA before that) was used mostly for tweaking crossover and zobel networks.

If a crossover is well designed and the drivers are well matched, you won't see in a graph or hear any transition from one driver to the other.

whats more important, in your opinion, the 3ft (1meter) EE triangle or the graph flatness? I'll have to quantify this, but it seemed I got better graph with the sub woofer placed a bit further back or/ the sats further to the front?

Given the acoustic variables in a studio versus a anechoic chamber, I would lean toward a flatter graph. Play with speaker placement (within reason, of course) to try to help the freq. response.

If you can, post a graph of the mains without the crossover (full range signal) and without the EQ. Let's see what needs to be done from there.

Almost forgot.. does your sub crossover have independently adjustable high and low pass knobs or is the crossover point just one knob?

 

[CoolCat]

If you can, post a graph of the mains without the crossover (full range signal) and without the EQ. Let's see what needs to be done from there.

Almost forgot.. does your sub crossover have independently adjustable high and low pass knobs or is the crossover point just one knob?

yes, the sub has the low and hi crossover option, or it can be just a low end addition, or it can offer one crossover using the speakerwire (passive speaker) input.

I have it using the upper and lower setting. 150hz and above going to the mains and 120apprx and below to the sub.

edit:
I canceled the idle-noise graph, its my preamp and/or phantom i found out.
This pretty much fhks my data as its nearly as loud as the source in the lower range. With no 48V & mic unplugged nice quiet reading -100 or so, with the 48V Phantom on it jumps up to -57db with the Preamp at 0.

I guess as Mamms mentioned to use the inputs on the back (no preamp)? but theres no Phantom power and my measurement mic requires that.

at least I found out my preamps noisier than hell?

Two problems 1) Can't get the Pink Noise loud enough to distant the PinkNoise from the noisy preamp noise

 

[solo2racr]

I was thinking more like a screen shot of the bar graphs but thats OK. I was wanting to see where your main rolloff on the low end but I went back to your 5th post in this thread and looked at the factory charts. I think, from looking that those charts, that the best points to crossover at would be 70Hz highpass for the mains and 65Hz. lowpass for the sub. I always leave a bit of a gap between the crossover points. If the crossover points are the same freq., you'll end up with a bit of a hump in the response. If the gap is to wide, there will be some fallout in the response. My own rule of thumb is about 1/10 oct. gap.

Your right. -57Db noise floor is bad. Something else isn't right if you can't get the pink noise high enough to get a measurement. Is it a feedback problem or just a volume problem? Pointing a mic. straight at speakers is ALWAYS a good way to get a ton of feedback. Generate some pink noise at a decent level and start pushing the gain on the mic. and see if you can get a good level on the graph.

 

[CoolCat]

Should the Pink Noise be at 85DB on a Radio Shack SPL (C weighted) meter?

Seems the loudest I can get before clipping is around -32db on the VA software graph.

Is this right? I always got confused on all the familys of Db charts ..

Unfortunately the noise is where the freq range is under study! 20hz to 200!

All the way down to 150 its not bad really, other than that 850-900hz dip.

I'll do some more, but somethings missing in the basic setup for me possibly.

 

[solo2racr]

85Db. should be plenty loud to get a good reading at the mic. If it is starting to clip at-32Db., Sounds like you have the mic too hot. Take some gain out. That should help with the noise in the preamp too. There isn't much of a help file with this program and I just kinds figured it out as I went. I just went to their web site and not much more their either.

FWIW...... You could just set your crossover points at 65Hz LP and 70Hz HP (based on the factory graphs) and just use your RS meter to match the Db. levels from the mains and the sub. Turn each one on one at a time and note the Db of each and set them the same. Quick and easy, although probably not as accurate.

 

[mamm7215]

Hey CoolCat, wow you're doing a lot of work! I just looked at your graph (been away for a bit) and the big null at 75hz (and 800) will be a result of your room response. Is it treated? (can't remember if you said it was). A null (or peak) that large will always be standing waves cancelling or adding to one another. I expect if you move your mic around the room, the null will follow to different freq's. I'll try and post a couple of graphs before/after I set my sub up. And this is in a treated room...

 

[mamm7215]

Ok, here's a couple of before/afters...

You can see the big null at about 90hz. After the sub and some minor mic placement adjustments the hole is basically filled in. There's the odd few db bump/dip but it's way better for guaging bass response now.

 

[CoolCat]

very cool....mamms
so you crossed over at 150hz with the YSS1, as I recall.
filled in very well, and smoothed out some too.. nice.
i notice your in the 60+db range, i'd always thought it was to be at 85db?
either way I can only seem to get -32db pp on my chart...whatever the hell that means?

I notice your graph is more the standard DB scale, as the Yorkville graph.


are you using the input on the back of the EMU dock? (bypass the preamp)

also when initially setting up the "measuring" tools, what do you set the volume up to?
1) do you run a 1khz and adjust volume to 85db and then go to pink noise
2) do you go directly to pink noise and set the volume adjustments, up to feedback levels and back off?

I'm miffed

 

[CoolCat]

alright! finally got the preamp noise eliminated.
Went through the back on the EMU1820 as Mamm7215 mentioned. cool.. Much Much quieter.

moved the speakers around and got a bit of the smoothness going
raised 'em a bit, and pulled them in, a shy under 3ft. actually. Need to go make some 4" taller small speaker stand-things.... or I could saw the legs down in my chair? Sub at 80hz.
Moved the Sub to 80hz per Ethans comment and the JBL mentioning the 75hz and up directional issue. Using the software Tone generator I was sending tones out only, and trying to locate the bass/sub freq as I swept thru the range, pretty neat...you can hear it show up in the left or right and at a one point kind of moves to the middle. I know, I'm just now discoverying the "wheel"...but hey, its like a fun lab.

yes, the speaker setup is like a fine tuning a carburetor for a 452 cleveland engine I guess....gearheads.

had to chop the pics up for 64K, its at 3db..got the volume up a bit to -72 to -69 with the noise floor maintained under -100....still don't get this part or at least the nomenclature? top no sub, bottom sub added.

Thanks immensely for the help! solo and 72..a very very nice upgrade was added with this new VA system running through the EMU.. with ease now.

 

[mamm7215]

I used the room eq wizard, just followed the instructions, it defaults to 75db so that's what I did
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

CC, great looking graph after. Still looks like a dip at below 100hz or so. You should get the room eq wizard and give it a try. Free plus you can generate cool graphs, too.

If you haven't treated your room with bass trapping, definitely do so. You can diy on the cheap the results will be jaw-dropping.

Lookin' good!

P.S. I've adjusted my crossover to about 100hz or so, then adjusted the level with a few reference CD's I know and it made an immediate difference in my mixes as to the balances I'm getting. Very good now.

 

[solo2racr]

COOL Looks way better. Now that the work is done, the fun can begin. Room treatment, speaker placement, crossover points, sub/main levels. Make notes as you go so if an experiment goes bassackward, you can take it back to where it was.

Have fun!

 

[trunkdog]

COOL Looks way better. Now that the work is done, the fun can begin. Room treatment, speaker placement, crossover points, sub/main levels. Make notes as you go so if an experiment goes bassackward, you can take it back to where it was.

Have fun!

Dudes, this was over the top!
Just got my YSS1 and YSM1p's
Time to get to work on my first studio!