Studio computer has been freezing! I'll lose business if I can't fix this!

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WelchRecording

WelchRecording

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I've had this computer for three years and done all kinds of modifications on it to make it the computer that I use now to operate a small family-run recording studio. Recently, however, it's started overheating and actually froze up during a recording session! It's also gradually started to run slower throughout the last several months and I need some advice on how to solve the situation.

I've checked the system errors and warnings, done all kinds of troubleshooting, and even bought an external USB 2TB drive to store my processed recordings on to increase the write speed on my existing IDE drive. None of this has solved the problem of it taking 10-15 seconds to start/stop recording in my DAW (Ableton 8), especially when I have up to 13 tracks active for recording drums. It will start recording as soon as I click it, but then the 10-15 seconds that follows the DAW completely freezes up while recording and I can't even stop it until a minute later no matter what happens. About a year ago I didn't have any of these issues... so here's my thoughts:

Perhaps my power supply just hasn't been putting out enough wattage. One of the LED lights on the front has stopped displaying, and I have about 3 extra fans installed in the computer that may take too much power. Also, I get fan speed warnings on my ASUS motherboard BIOS on startup. This would also be the reason that my heatsink/CPU go higher than 52 degrees and freeze up since it's not getting enough power.

Or, perhaps I just need a new heatsink. When my CPU overheats and freezes up, the heatsink is the only part of the computer that is hot (and it's reeeeally hot). This may either be cause it's not getting enough power or perhaps I just need to get a supercharged heatsink cooling system.

I'm running low on money and options, so I have one of the following options to try first:

1) New PSU
2) New Heatsink
3) New hard drive w/ faster write speeds to stop the delays on recording starts and stops.

(Or perhaps the starts/stops are caused by not having enough power to the MB?)

Please do tell me what you think! Here's the hardware that may be involved in the problem:

ASUS A8N-SLI Mobo
AMD Opteron 185 2.6GHz CPU (stock heatsink)
ATI Radeon HD 3870 GPU w/ a PCI cooling fan below it
2 PreSonus FireStudio Project Interfaces via PCIe FireWire 400
4GB Kingston DDR-400MHz RAM
 
Have you opened the case and inspected?

Maybe one or more of the fans have locked.
Maybe the CPU cooler is loose?
Maybe a PCI card or even the GPU aren't seated well?
Take out the ram DIMM's and clean them.

And once the case is open, vacuum everything. Even in a studio, after three years, it should have accumulated some dust.

If visual inspection of the insides reveals nothing, my first bet would be the PSU.
 
A new hard drive isn't going to fix your problem if you're getting fan speed errors.
 
There's a whole range of possible issues here. If you're running a system with an IDE c drive, then, quite honestly, your systems getting pretty long in the tooth.

You may have multiple issues...an overheating problem that's causing the system to lock up AND a hard drive problem thats causing the system to run sluggishly.

Being an IDE drive, I'm guessing it may be getting old. The slower system response may just be due to the drive suffering high error counts and the system is having to do lot's of read/write retries. Windows will use the c drive for it's page swap file and if your C drive is starting to go out, this could really impact your systems responsiveness.

I'm assuming you've de-fragged the drive of course.

Getting the external drive will, at least, keep you from losing all your work if the c drive gives up but, if your c drive is in the proccess of giving up, you need to get it backed soon.

In any event. Go here... http://www.hdtune.com/ and read up on this utility. Then download it and run it against your c drive. Check the health status tab and look at the error scan. Also run the transfer rate test and note the results.

Also download this utility...
http://download.cnet.com/Core-Temp-32-bit/3000-2094_4-10794077.html

Start up your system, then bring up the core temp utility. Dont run anything, just let the system sit and idle for a little bit (10 minutes or so). See what CPU temp you settle at.

Now bring up the Windows task manager, go to the Performance tab and look at what CPU utilization level you have (should be very low). Now start up Albleton, set up something to record and set up your windows so you can see the Windows task manager window while you're recording.

Hit the record button and note where your CPU utilization goes. Take notes of all this stuff and post that info.

What kind of CPU heat sink do you have? Is it coated with dust/crap? Is the heat sink fan turning?

You mention fan speed warnings on startup, what fan are you getting warnings on? Many mobo's will detect both CPU AND system fan speeds.
 
I clean the system with compressed air/vacuum every month to make sure there's never a dust problem. (Defrags/drive cleanup occur every week)

The CPU Heatsink is just a stock heatsink with a small chip-style fan on it. All the fans are working correctly but due to the BIOS warnings I'm thinking they might not be running fast enough. After inspecting the BIOS settings, the two warnings I'm getting are when the chip fan is running below 800RPMs and the CPU fan is under 500 RPMs. (They certainly do spin pretty fast though. I've ran this computer with the case open the last couple nights to make sure.)

I'll download these utilities you've suggested and see what kind of information I can get, but with ASUS motherboard utilities I can see that the system runs at a steady 51 degrees celsius (super hot) after just 10-15 minutes. At ~52-53 degrees it freezes up. I'll update this post in approx. 8 hours after sleeping and running these utilities and doing the tests you've suggested (thank you much!).

I use a total of three hard drives, one IDE (just extra storage space), one SATA (Operating System/Ableton recording temporary files), and the 2TB external USB drive (exported audio post-production).

Also, the power supply unit is only 400 watts... When I purchased it, the guy at the computer store assured me that it would handle my system with no problems because "it's not how many watts it puts out, but what kind of power it puts out with the wattage".... maybe I got dunced. But I have a very large GPU, an extra PCI fan under it, two case fans, and the PCIe FireWire 400 port that all draw power from the PSU. I've removed the CD/DVD burner and floppy drives to conserve power and offset all this extra usage, though.

EDIT: Cyrano, I've double checked and made sure nothing inside the case is loosely connected or put together poorly. As far as buying a PSU goes, is it a case of the more watts the better?

Note to self: Remove, clean, and reinstall RAM sticks

EDIT 2: FYI, I've disabled the Windows XP Page File since I have no issues with overloaded memory usage and it takes more time to read extra hard drive RAM. Memory usage is allocated to background services instead of Programs, and there are other random Windows XP settings I have edited to make the computer focused on Ableton performance.

Also, when Ableton has the lag time before and after starts/stops, the 'D' icon is highlighted, which means that the program is having slow hard drive read/writes that cause the sluggishness. I don't know if that's entirely the case though because the system as a whole is sluggish when this occurs, not just inside the Ableton program.
 
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Your power supply is more than adequate even with your extra fans but you must make sure that the PSU fan is also running okay and dust free.

I was an XP SP3 user for many years and one of the main hardware problems I had was from fans. Also you cannot trust the fan speed monitors.

Next if you feel competent I suggest that you take the processor heat sink off clean the processor surface with Isopropyl alcohol then apply a thin layer of heatsink compound (scrape off with a credit card to leave a thin film only)

Check if there is a tiny fan runnign okay on your motherboard Northbridge chip. Also check the videocard fan. When I had the same radeon card if I held its fan stopped with my finger my system would crash in 20 seconds.

I don't like your disabling of the XP Page file or running background priority.

Its a while since I used IDE drives but as I recall you need to check that it is not running in PIO mode. It must be in DMA mode to get a high transfer speed.

See http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/storage/IDE-DMA.mspx

Hope you get it fixed.

One point to be careful of in any future upgrade is that your Audio system uses Firewire. I have read that some Firewire systems/software are not compatable with Windows 7

regards,

Ian
 
WelchRecording said:
EDIT 2: FYI, I've disabled the Windows XP Page File since I have no issues with overloaded memory usage and it takes more time to read extra hard drive RAM. Memory usage is allocated to background services instead of Programs, and there are other random Windows XP settings I have edited to make the computer focused on Ableton performance.

Also, when Ableton has the lag time before and after starts/stops, the 'D' icon is highlighted, which means that the program is having slow hard drive read/writes that cause the sluggishness. I don't know if that's entirely the case though because the system as a whole is sluggish when this occurs, not just inside the Ableton program.
Click to expand...

You have received some good advise here, so I wont repeat that part. I'm not familar with your Abletron device, but I'm familar with XP. I strongly suggest that you re-enable the Windows swap file. I do agree in setting as a fixed size - set "Initial Size" and "Max size" as the same number. Some programs just will NOT work right without a swap file, they will pause and search for a file if they cannot find one. And I would set your Memory Useage to go to Programs, not Background services.
 
After running HDTune, I can quickly see that the transfer rates on my SATA drive vs my IDE drive are much different (around a 30MB/s difference!!). I've been using the SATA drive to record on, so I can quickly see that switching all my Ableton folders to the IDE drive will definitely speed things up a ton! I do believe this problem has been fixed!

However, there is still the issue of computer cooling and freezing up. Today it's been running at 50 degrees Celsius and that's just way too much. If the PSU is able to handle everything fine, then I think the quick fix would be to get a water cooling heatsink or apply some new Gel to the CPU. (perhaps the gel has just gone bad over time...) This has been great advice from everyone and I'm very greatful! I'll update the post if the hard drive switch doesn't improve the situation or I can find anything else to fix the cooling.

Beemer: Just double checked the PSU fan and air'd it out with some compressed air. It's running good.

PS I turned a 5GB-5GB page file on to my IDE C drive, and switched memory usage to allocate best for programs. However, I've read a lot about modifying XP for audio recording, and the general advice is to switch it to Background Services since that's where your audio drivers run. I'll keep it on Programs until this problem is fixed though to make sure that is not an issue.

EDIT: I did make sure my drives are running in DMA mode if possible, thanks for the advice

UPDATE The SATA cable was broken causing slow transfer rates, so I got a new one and made sure it's in DMA mode in Windows. Now I get transfer rates of ~50MB/s - huge improvement from 1-2MB/s... So I'll keep the Ableton library here and the speed has been fixed. NOW the only problem is the cooling issue of the CPU.
 
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I've thought about your cooling and I keep coming back to 'What has changed?'. Tough one. Not being able to directly answer that, some general cooling thoughts:

Double-check the PSU fan - I know you say you have vacuumed, but do be sure it's not clogged - I once fixed a pal's PC with overheating issues similar yours and all it took on that occasion was to pull a fistfull of fluff out of the power-supply airway. The blockage led to the CPU overheating, because there was no efficient heat exhaust. Similarly, just pushing the PC closer to the wall or closing a cabinet door can cause problems by restricting ventilation - but I get the impression you'll be switched on to that kind of issue.

It can be informative when running the PC in an open space with the case lid/panels off to note what the temperature does. Most PCs run cooler with the panels off in an airy space anyway - but if it makes a really big difference it's a useful hint that case fans aren't up to the job. If it makes no difference, that too teaches you something.

Random final thought: double check bios settings for clock speed, multiplier and CPU voltage (if your BIOS is configurable in such detail) - occasionally they get corrupted or some wiseguy fiddles with them. Even slight overvolting or overclocking can very quickly outrun a standard cooling setup.

When I used to build my own systems I'd fit a huge CPU heatsink and aim a big independently mounted speed-adjustable fan at it. That way I could run the fan slow and quiet, but crank it to hurricane force if I was working the PC really hard on a hot day. But even that only works if you have case fans blowing the hot air out and sucking cool air in!

Wish you well with it - let us know how you get on.
 
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robdean said:
I've thought about your cooling and I keep coming back to 'What has changed?'. Tough one. Not being able to directly answer that, some general cooling thoughts:

Double-check the PSU fan - I know you say you have vacuumed, but do be sure it's not clogged - I once fixed a pal's PC with overheating issues similar yours and all it took on that occasion was to pull a fistfull of fluff out of the power-supply airway. The blockage led to the CPU overheating, because there was no efficient heat exhaust. Similarly, just pushing the PC closer to the wall or closing a cabinet door can cause problems by restricting ventilation - but I get the impression you'll be switched on to that kind of issue.

It can be informative when running the PC in an open space with the case lid/panels off to note what the temperature does. Most PCs run cooler with the panels off in an airy space anyway - but if it makes a really big difference it's a useful hint that case fans aren't up to the job. If it makes no difference, that too teaches you something.

Random final thought: double check bios settings for clock speed, multiplier and CPU voltage (if your BIOS is configurable in such detail) - occasionally they get corrupted or some wiseguy fiddles with them. Even slight overvolting or overclocking can very quickly outrun a standard cooling setup.

When I used to build my own systems I'd fit a huge CPU heatsink and aim a big independently mounted speed-adjustable fan at it. That way I could run the fan slow and quiet, but crank it to hurricane force if I was working the PC really hard on a hot day. But even that only works if you have case fans blowing the hot air out and sucking cool air in!

Wish you well with it - let us know how you get on.
Click to expand...

Very good advice. Just got in from a mobile recording trip and I'll be sure to open up the PSU and see if I can find any dust inside of it... but I get the feeling you may be right about the CPU overclocking. The motherboard I'm using was originally made for gaming with it's dual-GPU support, and when reading the manual it has about half the book dedicated to overclocking. In the morning I'll check on any possible overclocking features and make sure they aren't turned on... After all, I need the system to work! Not work better!

Either the PSU cleaning/BIOS edits will fix it or I'll be buying a new heat sink over the weekend. Hopefully I won't have to spend any more money on this issue though.

I'll be sure to update this; I'm overwhelmed at how much help I've gotten on this subject from the community. I'll be sure to help out people as much as I can on these boards if that's any kind of repayment for this help.
 
I'm sure we're all very glad to help - I know I am.

Having read this thread again with your latest repair plans in mind I'd like to make a suggestion:

If your mobo is reporting the fans as slow that should be taken very seriously, since it correlates perfectly with an overheating problem. I used to monitor fan speeds but nowadays my memory of appropriate speeds is hazy. However I recall speeds in three figures as definitely the low end of low. Look at the BIOS settings or any fan-control hardware you have and set them to at least 1500rpm! Most fans are happy to run over 4000rpm, though they get noisy. If possible, allow your BIOS to throttle the CPU fan according to temperature.

There's still the question of 'What has changed'. This may be another hint that the BIOS has forgotten it's settings, but if the BIOS gives a live voltage readout of the various PSU voltages, check they are within parameters (e.g. that 12v , 5v feeds etc are in the right ballpark - the odd +/-0.1v is no worry)

Re. a new heatsink - your system has worked fine with the existing one in the past, so some other cause is at work - refitting the heatsink with new compound makes sense, but a brand new heatsink would be a case of treating the symptom rather than curing the illness. After all, a heatsink is just a chunk of metal - it's one of the few bits in that box you can be sure won't break down or wear out!

My hunch at this point in the game is that addressing fan speed should be your first line of attack...
 
fans go bad.......i've replaced a ton of fans in every computer i've owned and i clean them regularly..........also heatsink compound specially the junk stuff will dry out........seen it happen alot, i'd definately check all the fans and resink the cpu
 
BTW, have you run any antivirus and/or malware scanners? Just in case.

If you don't have one installed (and ideally you shouldn't on a music computer, as long as you don't have it connected to the Internet), I'd still recommend you run something like SuperAntiSpyware, just to be sure.

Also, as far as page file settings. Microsoft recommends setting the page file size to 1.5x the installed RAM.
 
Alright, I've done lots and lots and lots of work on this. Here's where I've gotten after taking all the suggestions and such and the improvements that I've found:

After uninstalling the anti-virus utility entirely, instead of just disabling it, as well as disabling write caching on the hard disks I get no more hard drive speed issues in the DAW. (I did make sure to do a full system scan before removing it and found no issues w/ any malware. I also do occasional scans with SpyBot and a few other free utilities but make sure they aren't running in the background ever.)

Now, the only issues in the DAW are when the FireWire interfaces lose sync w/ the machine occasionally when doing mixing. (This doesn't ever happen when recording thankfully.)

MAJOR UPDATE on the Hard Drive situation. My IDE drive sometimes wouldn't even be recognized by the computer, and I found that switching its power cord to the PSU with one that was going to the case fans it powers up every time..... Maybe the cords from the PSU to the equipment in the computer are bad? Perhaps replacing them will solve all these problems or at least a few?

This would explain why the fans aren't going fast enough: They may be getting only a fraction of the power they need!

But if they aren't getting enough power to run at full speed, would they run at all?

Thanks for all your help! Please read and reply any and all suggestions I've been trying everything that's been suggested.

EDIT: I have made a 5GB-5GB page file on my IDE drive that is unused otherwise.

EDIT 2: I've layed the tower on its side, left one of the panels of the case off, and have a room fan laying down on it just so I can have it running long enough to get some work done.
 
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Reading this thread with interest. I keep coming back to the same thing as others have, which is 'what has changed'? If nothing, then going with a bigger heat sink as discussed up-thread would be addressing the symptom rather than the problem.

Based on what you've written here, there are only a few possibilities that come to mind:

1 - bad fan(s)

2 - bad/maladjusted fan controller

3 - motherboard problems (flaky voltage, etc...)

In your BIOS setup, there should be a setting for Q-fan controller. Disabling it should cause your fans to run at full speed all the time. If you haven't tried this yet, give it a shot and post back your results.

-B
 
tmx said:
Reading this thread with interest. I keep coming back to the same thing as others have, which is 'what has changed'? If nothing, then going with a bigger heat sink as discussed up-thread would be addressing the symptom rather than the problem.

Based on what you've written here, there are only a few possibilities that come to mind:

1 - bad fan(s)

2 - bad/maladjusted fan controller

3 - motherboard problems (flaky voltage, etc...)

In your BIOS setup, there should be a setting for Q-fan controller. Disabling it should cause your fans to run at full speed all the time. If you haven't tried this yet, give it a shot and post back your results.

-B
Click to expand...

Q-fan controller has been disabled, and I'm still getting the fan speed warnings for CHA1 (Heatsink fan) and CHIP fan (board fan below video card).
 
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It takes a certain amount of power to get a fan turning. Between that and full power it'll run slow.
It certainly seems there's something up with an aspect of the power supply. In section 4.5.4 of the manual it seems you can check operating voltages in the BIOS. In section 4.4.1 you can turn off 'Cool and Quiet' control & 4.4.5 deal with overclocked configs. I realise you may have done all of this.

If I were you I'd work back from the fans - they are your one non-intermittent consistent fault.
I guess they are running off the 12v rail (check!) - is that voltage OK?
Have you tried removing and re-seating the connectors between the PSU and the mobo?
Do you have the right adaptors to power the crucial fans from a different power feed to see if they subjectively run better? (you'll get no speed readout and the BIOS will go nuts thinking you have fan failure unless you turn off fan monitoring)
Do you have a multimeter?!
Since the mobo tracks lots of voltage parameters etc you may be able to get a WIndows utility to display them. But two fans slow must mean low power somewhere for some reason...
 
robdean said:
It takes a certain amount of power to get a fan turning. Between that and full power it'll run slow.
It certainly seems there's something up with an aspect of the power supply. In section 4.5.4 of the manual it seems you can check operating voltages in the BIOS. In section 4.4.1 you can turn off 'Cool and Quiet' control & 4.4.5 deal with overclocked configs. I realise you may have done all of this.

If I were you I'd work back from the fans - they are your one non-intermittent consistent fault.
I guess they are running off the 12v rail (check!) - is that voltage OK?
Have you tried removing and re-seating the connectors between the PSU and the mobo?
Do you have the right adaptors to power the crucial fans from a different power feed to see if they subjectively run better? (you'll get no speed readout and the BIOS will go nuts thinking you have fan failure unless you turn off fan monitoring)
Do you have a multimeter?!
Since the mobo tracks lots of voltage parameters etc you may be able to get a WIndows utility to display them. But two fans slow must mean low power somewhere for some reason...
Click to expand...

Ah I see you've looked up the manual. Luckily I have a hard copy, I've been reading it about every day trying to fix this but you may have found what I've been looking for.

I'll first try re-configuring the wires from the PSU to the hardware/mobo because I know for a *fact* there's something wrong there when I switched the power to my IDE hard drive. I wonder if just buying new ones would fix this.

Then I'll try reading the power monitor on the BIOS, but I'm not sure what the power is supposed to be at.

Thanks much for this reply! I'll check back with results shortly.

EDIT: Multimeter?? Don't think so but I'll google it to see what this is.
 
I'm sorry that I did not notice before that you have an Asus A8N-SLI. I once had this board and eventually it kept freezing no matter what I did. I bought a new video card then two new power supplies (the first new one actually blew up!) That was when I bought a Gigabyte motherboard and upgraded my processor, memory, video card and movedf to Windows 7 64-bit. I have never had a hardware problem in the last year.

Beemer
 
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