String Bends on Acoustics

Flamin Lip

Flamin Lip

New member
Beyond heavier string guage, can anyone explain why it seems like you have to bend further and harder on an acoustic compaired to an electric?

Maybe Mutley or someone with a deeper understanding of acoustics and physics can explain this?
 
Except for maybe ac. isn't as loud it seems to die sooner-? Other than that, not sure it does.
Actually I 'd bet it is the heavier string factor. Just can't do a 26 like a 17. ;)
 
Assuming the same gauge strings and action and setup on both an electric and acoustic the effort required to bend the strings will be the same. What will be different is the output that you get. On an acoustic the sound you hear is from the bridge driving the top. The transfer of energy to soundwaves is less efficient than on an electric where the string vibration is detected by the pickup. A pickup is far more efficient than a soundboard. Thats it in a nutshell.

You are going to try harder to hold that string down on an acoustic because acoustically the way in which sound is produced is less forgiving. In reality people use lower action and gauge strings on an electric because the pickup will still pickup the string movement that on an acoustic would be insufficient to move the soundboard. Thats why heavier strings on an acoustic give better tone and dynamic. It all has to do with the attack and decay of the string vibration and how that is translated to soundwaves.
 
Flamin Lip said:
I think this is probably the most valid point beyond string guage.

Thanks Muttley
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And, obviously, you're dealing with a wound G string on an acoustic and unwound on electric.

Also, fretboards usually have a smaller radius on acoustics since they're more often used for chording, correct? Electrics usually have a larger radius, which is easier on bending. This is usually the case, isn't it?
 
famous beagle said:
And, obviously, you're dealing with a wound G string on an acoustic and unwound on electric.

Also, fretboards usually have a smaller radius on acoustics since they're more often used for chording, correct? Electrics usually have a larger radius, which is easier on bending. This is usually the case, isn't it?
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Not necessarily. There is a lot of variation between makes on radius. Even within model types. Typically a tele or strat will have a radius of around 9.5" but some have been made with as little as 7.25" or as much as 10". Your acoustics are often in the 10" to as high as 14" but some will be less. There really is no hard and fast rule. Check this for examples.

Yes a wound string and a plain string will effect the ease of bend but I think Flamin Lips question related to a scenario where all things are equal.
 
muttley600 said:
Not necessarily. There is a lot of variation between makes on radius. Even within model types. Typically a tele or strat will have a radius of around 9.5" but some have been made with as little as 7.25" or as much as 10". Your acoustics are often in the 10" to as high as 14" but some will be less. There really is no hard and fast rule. Check this for examples.

Yes a wound string and a plain string will effect the ease of bend but I think Flamin Lips question related to a scenario where all things are equal.
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Thanks for the info! I stand corrected. :)
 
muttley600 said:
Yes a wound string and a plain string will effect the ease of bend but I think Flamin Lips question related to a scenario where all things are equal.
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It seems to me that a wound G should bend more easily than a plain one, since the core of a wound G is thinner than a plain G.
 
ggunn said:
It seems to me that a wound G should bend more easily than a plain one, since the core of a wound G is thinner than a plain G.
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Yes, but the winding adds to the mass and stiffness. Essentially you need the mass and stiffness per unit length to be the same for any given tension and frequency. Wound strings give you a fatter/heavier gauge string with more tension. Thats why they sound better and are more prone to breaking. Also because of that they are harder to bend.
 
Muttley is right- all things equal results in the same ease or difficulty of bends, whether acoustic or electric. One thing about many (but certainly not all) electrics is they have a shorter scale than the standard 25.5" acoustic, which decreases the tension and makes bends easier.
 
muttley600 said:
... On an acoustic the sound you hear is from the bridge driving the top. The transfer of energy to soundwaves is less efficient than on an electric where the string vibration is detected by the pickup. A pickup is far more efficient than a soundboard. Thats it in a nutshell.
Click to expand...
Oops, I think you touched on something else though that I missed also. If the string's enery is moving the top to make sound it would die sooner.
I.e. except for using acoustic feedback', we use solid bed guitars for more sustain.
 
mixsit said:
Oops, I think you touched on something else though that I missed also. If the string's enery is moving the top to make sound it would die sooner.
I.e. except for using acoustic feedback', we use solid bed guitars for more sustain.
Click to expand...
Thats probably the greatest factor at play. The soundbaord and the body enclosure is a remarkably good system for what it does, but along side the sensitivity of a magnetic pickup it's not very efficient. Think of it this way. A plucked string has a given amount of energy in it as it vibrates. The way that energy is lost is the key factor. Ignoring the thousands of subtle things that go to make up a nice sounding instrument the essential thing common to all is where and how is that energy lost or transfered into soundwaves.

Two systems Acoustic and Electric.

Acoustic. The energy in the string is mostly lost in these ways.

via the air as soundwaves directly off the string.
via the nut and headstock as energy is transfered to the wood.
via internal damping in the mechanics of the string. The string material will be self damping to a degree. It's own impedance.
via the bridge and onto the soundboard and it is this part we hear.

A good deal of the energy of the string is reflected back down the string at the nut and the bridge/saddles. It is this that gives us the relationship between amplitude and decay or in simple terms volume and sustain. They are essentially related. More volume = less sustain and vice versa.

Electric. The first three still apply but as there is no soundboard or enclosure a good deal more energy is reflected back down the string, this will effect the decay or sustain and as you'd expect the acoustic amplitude or volume is much less. That allows for the pickup to keep detecting the vibrations in the string and convert them into an electrical signal related directly to the amount of string movement and the frequency. That signal is then amplified electronically rather than via a soundboard and air enclosure.

Completely different ways of generating audible sound waves. Both are fantastically complex in reality but very simple in the basic theory.
 
muttley600 said:
Thats probably the greatest factor at play. The soundbaord and the body enclosure is a remarkably good system for what it does, but along side the sensitivity of a magnetic pickup it's not very efficient. Think of it this way. A plucked string has a given amount of energy in it as it vibrates. The way that energy is lost is the key factor. Ignoring the thousands of subtle things that go to make up a nice sounding instrument the essential thing common to all is where and how is that energy lost or transfered into soundwaves.

Two systems Acoustic and Electric.

Acoustic. The energy in the string is mostly lost in these ways.

via the air as soundwaves directly off the string.
via the nut and headstock as energy is transfered to the wood.
via internal damping in the mechanics of the string. The string material will be self damping to a degree. It's own impedance.
via the bridge and onto the soundboard and it is this part we hear.

A good deal of the energy of the string is reflected back down the string at the nut and the bridge/saddles. It is this that gives us the relationship between amplitude and decay or in simple terms volume and sustain. They are essentially related. More volume = less sustain and vice versa.

Electric. The first three still apply but as there is no soundboard or enclosure a good deal more energy is reflected back down the string, this will effect the decay or sustain and as you'd expect the acoustic amplitude or volume is much less. That allows for the pickup to keep detecting the vibrations in the string and convert them into an electrical signal related directly to the amount of string movement and the frequency. That signal is then amplified electronically rather than via a soundboard and air enclosure.

Completely different ways of generating audible sound waves. Both are fantastically complex in reality but very simple in the basic theory.
Click to expand...

True, true, but it still doesn't make bending the string any harder or easier, just changes the sound qualities.
 
Let me put it this way: whether they are bending a lot of strings or not, when an electric guitarist plays my acoustic for awhile (and I do not have a high action) his fingers get sore and tired.

Real men don't need no amps...:mad: ;)
 
Horsedoc said:
True, true, but it still doesn't make bending the string any harder or easier, just changes the sound qualities.
Click to expand...
Yes but the point is that for similar gauge, setup, etc. The effort to bend a note is the same regardless. The resulting tone and it's decay and sustain will be very different. Add to that that with an electric you can use lighter gauge and lower action without sacrificing tone or dynamics as most of the work is done by the pickup and the amp. On an acoustic most of the work is done by the bridge, soundboard and enclosure
 
muttley600 said:
Yes but the point is that for similar gauge, setup, etc. The effort to bend a note is the same regardless. The resulting tone and it's decay and sustain will be very different. Add to that that with an electric you can use lighter gauge and lower action without sacrificing tone or dynamics as most of the work is done by the pickup and the amp. On an acoustic most of the work is done by the bridge, soundboard and enclosure
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And thereby hangs the tale...

That's why a "heavy" set of electric strings is about the same gauge as a "light" set of acoustic strings.
 
Are string gauges equal between electric and acoustic guitars? ex: Are 13 gauge strings the same for acoustic as they are electric?

Maybe a stupid question, but acoustics always feel bigger to me.
 
danny.guitar said:
Are string gauges equal between electric and acoustic guitars? ex: Are 13 gauge strings the same for acoustic as they are electric?

Maybe a stupid question, but acoustics always feel bigger to me.
Click to expand...
The gauge of the string is the same regardless. Different manufacturers use different alloys and core to winding ratios. Ultimately they are after a certain tension to achieve a certain pitch for a given string length. They can't change that bit. The pitch is Dependant on mass per unit length and tension. The gauge is just an empirical measurement of the thickness of the string in thou of an inch.
 
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