Starting a studio- what do i need?

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Milkfaj

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I plan on putting together a pro-quality studio, but ive never worked with anything more complex than a four track, SM 57s and a Computer with cakewalk. Im planning on using a Tascam MS-16 or MSR-24 and a 16 or 24 channel Mackie Mixer. My main question is weather I plug my Mics into the Recorder first and then run it though the mixer for mixdown (this is what I assume to be the case) or if i go through the mixer first. If i plug into the recorder first, do I need a preamp for each mic or just for the ones i want to sound really good (i want to get a Shure KMS44 and a JoeMeek compressor/preamp) but to I need a seperate pre for all Five SM57s too? also, where to compressors fit in? do i run them in between the Mics and the recorder, or in the effects loop of the mixer?
please tell me what you think of this hypothetical setup. Any advice would be much apriciated. Im on a budget of about $8000 and I want to stay as analog as possible. thanks!
 
You won't get a "pro-quality" anything for 8K........ if you plan on handling clients at anything more than a casual hobby level then you'd better start saving... a couple of hundred thou wouldn't be a stretch, and that's without a large-format console............
 
Im just looking for suggestions on equipment/setups, not discouragement. I have to start somewhere... :eek:
I just saw a 24 track Studer tape machine sell on ebay for $7000! I'd call that a 7K something!
 
You may be looking for suggestions, but you are looking at gear that no amateur should be running. If you don't know how to hook an analog tape deck up properly, than I can't imagine that you will know how to clean or align it. I got a killer deal on my "pro" console used, and I still spent 4 times what your budget is. Just to fully cable my console will cost nearly what your budget is. Do you know yet where you would even buy tape for a machine?

$8000 seems like about what it would take to smart a fairly small project studio. Not a commercial or pro studio.
 
Wow... not to rain on your parade but...

8K and pro are laughable.

I'm starting up a small pro studio and my budget is 50k. My microphone budget ALONE is 2k more than your total budget. I have 8k invested in preamps. 8k is less than my building renovations.

Honestly, if you can't decide how you are going to work you aren't ready to open your doors. If you don't have professional contacts you aren't ready to open your doors. If you haven't explored external financing you aren't ready to open your doors. If you haven't formulated a business plan that includes an exit strategy (i.e. if you fail) you aren't ready to open your doors. If you've never engineered a large session (at least a full album) you aren't ready to open your doors.

For 8k you get a small project studio, which may be a good place for you to start because I can tell you with 100% certainty you don't have the skills to run a studio... maybe not even a project studio.

In this business KNOWLEDGE is everything... and then finances. Finances are easy to get, the knowledge takes years. Apprentice yourself out to someone for a few years and maybe then you'll be ready.
 
So i guess i should just give up? not bother buying a tape machine because i couldnt possible learn to use it until i have a masters in audio engineering?
My mistake here was using the word "Pro"...
I'll rephrase:
I have an $8000 budget for an SIMPLE HOME STUDIO, and i would like advice on what to buy. I have in mind a MS-16 tape machine, some kind of inline mixer (need advice on brands) and some good Mics (maybe a neumann in the $1000 range as a main Mic) and preamps. Any advice would be much apriciated, as long as the advice isn't "give up"
 
I think your use of the word "pro" was kind of deceiving. I think we all want "pro" results, but it takes a lot of knowledge and quite a bit of high end equipment to get what most consider to be "pro" (far more than what I personally have in either category).

That said, if I were in your situation, I would probably look to pass on the Mackie and pick up a Soundcraft or Allen & Heath mixer. Both brands come highly regarded and are rather affordable.

I would also skip the tape recorder and look at an Alesis HD24XR. They're 24 tracks, fairly inexpensive, and are considered to be the best (read: both best sounding and least problematic) hard disk recorder this side of RADAR. A tape machine, as much as it would be great to learn to use and maintain one (hell, I was looking at Otari MX5050s on eBay not too long ago because I would love to learn to use one), seems to be a bit more advanced given the experience you mentioned, but I won't be one to pass judgement, as I have no more knowledge of it than you do. Also, with Quantegy filing Chapter 11 recently, who knows when/if they will be making tape again, or who will step up to fill the void. Tape is also expected to raise dramatically in price, and already has begun to do so from what I've read. To go along with the HD24XR, I'd look at getting a modest PC running wave editing software (I personally would go with an older version of Cool Edit/Audition) and a firewire card for the PC and FirePort adapter for the HD24. That way you can import tracks in to the PC to do wav edits, comp vocal tracks, etc. You don't need a top of the line PC for that...even the P2 366 laptop I'm typing this on can run CEP well enough to do the trick.

You also need to be factoring monitoring and cueing systems if you plan on tracking more than one musician at a time. Search the "Other Equipment" forum here...there are a plethora of well-recommended monitoring solutions there. A lot of people on a budget also seem to like Behringer's PowerPlay headphone amps. Headphones, like monitors, are a personal preferance and can run from a 5-for-$100 deal on some cheap AKGs to $100 or more a pop for some MDR 7506s or HD280 Pros.

Don't forget about cabling everything up. Mic cables, TRS cables, cables to link your mixer to your recorder...it all adds up really fast. Look to at least double that amount if you decide to use outboard gear and hook it all up with a patchbay.

Speaking of outboard gear, you'll probably want at the very least a couple of channels of compression and maybe some multieffect units for reverbs or delays. It all depends on if you plan to mix in or out of "the box", but since you want to go with a tape machine I'm assuming you're looking to keep a computer out of the scene. For compressors, probably the most highly recommended budget compressor is the FMR Audio RNC. You can order a pair of them (each unit is cable of stereo, but not dual-mono, operation) in a rackmount case from Fletcher at Mercenary for just shy of $400, I believe. People also seem to like some dbx compressors, and even the Behringer Composers on non-crucial sources. As for a multieffect unit, many seem to support the TC Electronics M300. It has a couple of different configurations and a whole host of reverbs, along with some other effects like delay and compression. It also has a S/PDIF I/O if you ever decided to utilize that.

Last, but certainly not least, are the mics. With those, the sky's the limit, and it really needs to be tailored towards what you're recording. A solo rap act doesn't usually need a setup to mic a live drum kit, for example. You mentioned that you want to look at one big-name mic like a Neumann in the $1000 range. The only one in that range that comes to mind is the TLM103, which I believe is regarded as fair at best. A lot of folks seem to like the Soundelux U195 for that dollar amount as a showcase mic. You could go a different route and look at the AEA 84 ribbon mic also. Beyond that, your price range really doesn't allow you to get too far into the mic game. I would say maybe a SM57 or two, some Sennheiser e609s (I hear Guitar Center's markup on these is really high...see if you can talk them down), and some sort of dynamic tailored for low end (bass, kick drum, etc). I have an AT ATM25 and I like it. I prefer it to the Shure Beta 52 but thats just me. The AKG D112 is a really popular mic in this range, and the Audix D6 seems to be winning a lot of people over. You'll also want a pair of small diaphragm condensors. MXL, Oktava, and Studio Projects all make good budget SDCs that many people here use. If your budget allows, you could also look at a matched pair of Neumann KM184s or Josephson C42s...either of those will clock in at about a grand for the pair. Again, the mics should be tailored to what you'll be doing.

I hope this helps you out, but really all I told you is what I would do in your situation. Also, most of my recommendations are made based solely on the good word of many posters here that I trust and respect, as my personal setup is horribly modest. For what its worth...
 
Milkfaj said:
I have an $8000 budget for an SIMPLE HOME STUDIO, and i would like advice on what to buy.

Now you're talking. You can have a great home studio for 8k.

The problem is when you say "pro studio" to me it means a studio that needs to generate a profit and works to satisfy demanding clients with quality audio in a timely fashion.
 
No long post from me.

You can't cable a mic directly to an MS-16. Although it has XLR inputs, they are running at LINE level. At the very least, if you were determined to do this, you'd need a mic-preamp inline. Ghost of FM has the MS-16, so you might want to direct MS-16 questions to him. He's very knowledgable and helpful.

You can't cable a mic directly to an MSR-24. This unit runs LINE level inputs on RCA connectors. Again, if you were determined to do this, you'd need a mic-preamp inline. I have an MSR-24, so I'd entertain questions pertaining to it, directly.

You'll need a RECORDING mixer, of some sort. That's a mixer with a CUE section built in, at the very least. Not all mixers are well suited for recording applications, so shop mixers very carefully. On a positive note, mixers generally have mic-preamps built-in, so that solves at least one of your problems. ;)
 
Pro-Quality studio

Plan on spending some $$$ on your acoustical environment too... You can have the best mics, pre's, consoles, recorders, etc. in the world, but if your room sucks, you're going to have a tough time getting pro quality results.

Bill
 
A Reel Person said:
You can't cable a mic directly to an MS-16. Although it has XLR inputs, they are running at LINE level. At the very least, if you were determined to do this, you'd need a mic-preamp inline. . ;)

good call- I found a really cool soundcraft 16 track mixer with direct outs for each channel for about $1500 and thats probobly the direction ill go in.

im pretty determined to go analog for a number of reasons. In oakland, where ill be based, every other musician has some sort of DAW or hard disk recorder, and most studios that i know of that offer analog recording are charging about $50 an hour. Im thinking if i can get enough practice and a few nice mics (a nuemann for about $1000, a couple SM81's, And a bunch of SM57, as well as a few nice preamps in the $200-300 range) ill be able to record some pretty good stuff. I like to think i have a knack for recording well with minimal equiptment since i have produced some prety good selling albums of my old band with a four track and cakewalk. there are enough steve albini freaks (like me) in Oakland that i think a fair amount of people would be willing to pay to record analog.

I need sugestions on preamps- would a $200 Joemeek Pre/compresser/Eq box do justice to a nuemann mic? (the nuemann i want doesnt have low frequency filters or 15db pads, thats my concern) would i be better of with a shure KSM44 which does have those features but a weaker rep? thanks for the constructive advice guys. sorry for the confusion my use of the word "pro" caused! :)
 
I would recommend analog front end with a DAW in the background. Mixing *QUALITY* analog records is extremely pricey because of the amount of hardware needed.

You won't be able to do a lot of 'bouncing to a slave thru effects' because of analog degradation. Plus that entails having TWO RTR machines.

Sad to say, but IMHO if you don't have at least a 75k budget digital will be an overall better setup than analog. There's just too much you can do with digital now and it is eclipsing analog--unless you have a huge budget.
 
Milkfaj said:
good call- I found a really cool soundcraft 16 track mixer with direct outs for each channel for about $1500 and thats probobly the direction ill go in.

im pretty determined to go analog for a number of reasons. In oakland, where ill be based, every other musician has some sort of DAW or hard disk recorder, and most studios that i know of that offer analog recording are charging about $50 an hour. Im thinking if i can get enough practice and a few nice mics (a nuemann for about $1000, a couple SM81's, And a bunch of SM57, as well as a few nice preamps in the $200-300 range) ill be able to record some pretty good stuff. I like to think i have a knack for recording well with minimal equiptment since i have produced some prety good selling albums of my old band with a four track and cakewalk. there are enough steve albini freaks (like me) in Oakland that i think a fair amount of people would be willing to pay to record analog.

I need sugestions on preamps- would a $200 Joemeek Pre/compresser/Eq box do justice to a nuemann mic? (the nuemann i want doesnt have low frequency filters or 15db pads, thats my concern) would i be better of with a shure KSM44 which does have those features but a weaker rep? thanks for the constructive advice guys. sorry for the confusion my use of the word "pro" caused! :)
If you are talking about 16 track 1/2 inch, it is really not much better than a 4 track in terms of quality. ( I'm exagerating, but it isn't 2 inch) and if you don't know how to align it and make all the adjustments (or even have a scope and the obligitory meters) you will not be doing anyone a favor by recording them analog. besides, you won't have enough tracks to mic up a drum set and have any left over for the rest of the band. I use at least 10 tracks just for a 5 piece drum set. That would leave 6 tracks for the rest of the project. Last time I checked (1995) tape was $120 a reel (20 minutes), with Quantegy going under the price will only go up.
 
...

Tascam MS-16 is 1"-16-track.
Tascam MSR-24 is 1"-24-track. ;)
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
if you plan on handling clients at anything more than a casual hobby level then you'd better start saving... a couple of hundred thou wouldn't be a stretch, and that's without a large-format console............
:eek: way??
 
Adam P, great post. There's a lot of information there for someone starting out.
 
mixmkr said:
huh? That can't possibly surprise you, mixmkr!? For a commercial facility.......

Design/construction of a proper acoustic space - $60-75K right there
Several high-end pres - $15K
A well-rounded collection of mics - another $12K
Commercial-grade digital mixer - $20K ($40K for a good analog one - Audient or equivalent)
Recorders (various formats) - $10K
High-end outboard A/D-D/A converters - $2K
Monitors - $7K
Headphones - $2K
Outboard effects - $9K
Misc outboard/DIs - $7K
PBs/Cables/Accessories - $9K
Power processing/conditioning - $6K
DAW - $3K
S/W & DAW H/W - $6K
Studio furniture - $5K

Off the top of my head that's around $188K right there... if I add up everything I've actually put into my own facility, it's easily over $200K..... also - this is based on Canadian pricing.....
 
My budget is currently 50k and I consider it to be a *SMALL* pro studio budget. Mostly great gear, but not a ton of it. Luckily in my location this is enough to be one of the top 3 studios regionally.

In about 3-5 years when I can expand into a larger studio the building alone will set me back at least 250k to get it to the specifications that I want, and the outboard gear will be another 100k.
 
Farview said:
If you are talking about 16 track 1/2 inch, it is really not much better than a 4 track in terms of quality. .

those are 1" recorders i was talking about- i went to a really great studio in sacramento called Pus Caverns about 8 years ago and recorded on a MSR-24 and mixed down to a computer and it sounded unbelievably great. ive also heard a lot of recordings that people have done with DAWs or ADATs or multitrack soundcards that just dont compare.

Steve Albini started very small- recording bands for $200 for all day sessions, and put all the money he made right back into his studio. Now he's got one of the best studios in the world.

Im surprised to see someone whose tag claims "big black and The Jesus lizard" claiming that digital is a better way to go! I understand that it is initially more cost-effective, but im just not interested. even if it ends up only being a hobby studio, id still rather have a real tape machine. In my opinion there has not been any recording in the digital age that i have heard that hold a candle to those great albums produced in the early 90's with tape. I dont want to get in the hole digital vs. analog argument though...

i still need advice on preamps though- thats someting i just dont know much about...
 
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