Speakers Vs. Headphones?

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The original problem he raised was when he mixes with speakers it sounds cluttered on headphones. G-Jay has it right I believe in that it may be money better spent on headphones than to treat his room and end up fruitless.

I think everyone is doing an awful lot of guessing as to the cause of the problem. We've not even heard the mixes, but yet some are sure about where the problem lies..."room treatment"...and the solution is to use..."headphones"....???

How do the mixes sound on other *monitors* and in other locations would be something I would check first.
This notion that in order to correct his cluttered "headphone-only" mixes he should just mix on headphones is VERY speculative and not necassarily a solution, or at the very best, it's a poor band-aid. :rolleyes:

Point is...if he is going to learn how to mix on heaphones...he can also learn how to mix on his monitors...
...and that's another question...what kind of "monitors" is he using at this time???
Also...what kind of headphones is he checking on???

Lots of unanswered questions....
 
I might also add that it doesn't necessarily cost anything to "treat" a room. As nice as official bass traps and diffuser panels and such are, sometimes all one really needs to get a properly translatable mix is a re-arrangement of the room. Getting monitors and mix desk out of corners and away from the walls, and a nice balance of sofas and padded chairs as absorbers/traps, bookcases and bookshelves as diffusers, thick pleated drapes against flat reflective walls as diffusers/absorbers, etc. can do wonders in taming or neutral-ing an otherwise unruly-sounding room.

G.
 
I might also add that it doesn't necessarily cost anything to "treat" a room. As nice as official bass traps and diffuser panels and such are, sometimes all one really needs to get a properly translatable mix is a re-arrangement of the room. Getting monitors and mix desk out of corners and away from the walls, and a nice balance of sofas and padded chairs as absorbers/traps, bookcases and bookshelves as diffusers, thick pleated drapes against flat reflective walls as diffusers/absorbers, etc. can do wonders in taming or neutral-ing an otherwise unruly-sounding room.

G.

Glen is spot on with this !
For I've treated many of our rooms in the studio with next to no money spent and have gotten wonderful results in treatment with all of what Glen has suggested. And a few other innovated ideas to tame the savage room.



:cool:
 
My earlier point exactly....

First see/hear what you have.
Sometimes a typical living room/rec room might sound quite good as-is without any official "treatments".
There are a lot of newbs that think you must have framed fiberglass panels, covered with cloth...and/or tons of foam glued all over the place...for it to be "treated".

I would still like to hear the OP's mix...and have hi answer some of the questions that will help clarify the cuase of his problem and possible solutions.
 
I would still like to hear the OP's mix...and have hi answer some of the questions that will help clarify the cuase of his problem and possible solutions.
You are so right about this. My guess is it has nothing to do with headphones vs speakers, sound treatment or mixing at all. I'm guessing it's the source and tracking causing the problem.:D
 
I agree that clarification is needed, because I have no idea for sure what the OP actually means by "cluttered".

But that said, IMHO, the whole "monitors vs. speakers" argument is rather academic. It's another one of those questions where people want a solid, black and white, either/or answer where one just does not exist.

On paper, speakers are technically *potentially* better, everybody agrees, but that only counts if the monitors are any good, and if the listener knows how to translate what they are hearing into reality. If it came down to deciding between a pair of better-than-entry-level Logitech computer speakers or entry-level "monitors", and a pair $100 Sony or Sennheiser headphones, I'd say flip a coin, because it's equally as hard and as possible to go either way.

G.
 
But why go to all this trouble when decent monitors will always work 10 times better?
Because some of us can only do this kind of stuff after 10pm, live in an apartment or a condo, have family and neighbors around, for various reasons they cannot treat their room, etc, etc, etc.
 
You are so right about this. My guess is it has nothing to do with headphones vs speakers, sound treatment or mixing at all. I'm guessing it's the source and tracking causing the problem. :D

And another "guess" would be that his perception is being skewed by the "nearness" of the headphones VS monitors.
IOW...listening on the monitors provides some "space", and elements appear more spread out, but when he puts on the headphones, it brings everything to a tighter focal point...so he hears it as "cluttered"...?

Then there is also the possibility that the OP just isn't hearing his mix properly. I don't mean that as a slight, rather just that his mixing ears may not yet be developed.

The best way to proceed with suggestions on how to fix things is to first hear what he is hearing.
 
Because some of us can only do this kind of stuff after 10pm, live in an apartment or a condo, have family and neighbors around, for various reasons they cannot treat their room, etc, etc, etc.

OK...those are valid justifications for NOT being able to play music loud or do any permanent remodeling, though I think near-field monitoring at 75-85 dB SPL is certainly not very loud and about equal to a typical stereo.
That still doesn't change what most people do & use as an "industry standard" (as much as there are some standards).

If I was forced to live in a hotel room for a month and still wanted to lay down some tracks, I might use a laptop and just bring a couple of mics and headphones...and make do.
Of course, under more ideal conditions, the gear and application would change more toward that “industry standard”…or as close as possible.
I never meant to suggest that headphones are totally unusable...quite the contrary.
AFA room treatment...I'm more of the "make do" mentality rather than frettin-n-fussin about room treatment before laying down a single note to hear how it sounds. :)
 
You are so right about this. My guess is it has nothing to do with headphones vs speakers, sound treatment or mixing at all. I'm guessing it's the source and tracking causing the problem.:D

And for this, the main live tracking room is where we have had to spend the most money. In building large movable (on wheels) go betweens for some separation and space creation.



:eek:
 
OK...those are valid justifications for NOT being able to play music loud or do any permanent remodeling, though I think near-field monitoring at 75-85 dB SPL is certainly not very loud and about equal to a typical stereo.
That still doesn't change what most people do & use as an "industry standard" (as much as there are some standards).

If I was forced to live in a hotel room for a month and still wanted to lay down some tracks, I might use a laptop and just bring a couple of mics and headphones...and make do.
Of course, under more ideal conditions, the gear and application would change more toward that “industry standard”…or as close as possible.
I never meant to suggest that headphones are totally unusable...quite the contrary.
AFA room treatment...I'm more of the "make do" mentality rather than frettin-n-fussin about room treatment before laying down a single note to hear how it sounds. :)

A good friend of mine-David Kent- won a Grammy and he recorded Lelia Downs in nothing but hotel rooms! While on tour running FOH for her and her band.
So anything is possible, thou he was using Earthworks microphones and preamps,but I'm sure if he used cheaper mics and pres he would have gotten the same results.



:cool:
 
Over the years, every time I mixed on headphones, because it was late at night, I would get it to where the mix sounded great, on the cans. But then when checking it the next day on my monitors, I would always find it was a lousy mix. I went through that many times, always thinking "This time will be different." But it never was. So I don't waste my time doing that anymore.

But the opposite is not true. If you get a good mix on good monitors, ( assuming you're in a good acoustic environment), it will sound good on phones.
 
Over the years, every time I mixed on headphones, because it was late at night, I would get it to where the mix sounded great, on the cans. But then when checking it the next day on my monitors, I would always find it was a lousy mix. I went through that many times, always thinking "This time will be different." But it never was. So I don't waste my time doing that anymore.

But the opposite is not true. If you get a good mix on good monitors, ( assuming you're in a good acoustic environment), it will sound good on phones.

I think this is a perfect summary of the situation. If you have to work on cans, you have to adapt to a new way of working and you probably have to work harder too. Good monitors in a good room is definitely going to be better for most people than mixing on cans.
 
If you were to mix every night with cans, then listen to your resulting mixes on the monitors during the day, eventually you could become quite proficient at mixing with cans to the point where you could imagine how it would sound on monitors reasonably well and not need to listen on said monitors all that often.

It's about ear training. Not everyone can make that aural connection with their imagination however some people can, I've met a few.

Years ago when I had a pro studio, we had one engineer we used occasionally who would show up with *his* cans and plug in, and lower the volume of the control room urei's to barely a whisper.

His mixes were darn good, can's and all.

Some people can do it, even though many of us preach against this practice for obvious sonic reasons. Some people's brains just work like that.

Mine, not so much :)
 
well Ive just spent three months abroad recording with headphones on a laptop...it took some time to get the tracks where they were listenable on an mp3 player..i was pretty chuffed, I used a set of bose (expensive but make everything sound great unfortunately) and a pair of pioneer DJ phones, again not the greatest but not cheapos...

Ive just set my gear up and I have entry level monitors...but boy every single mix done on the phones is awful...granted Im not the greatest mixer in the world (for sure) but the recordings are pretty decent (I had a guitar and a line 6 interface along for the trip) and during quiet days i spent a lot of time on them but they are diabolical, best word for them lol


buy monitors...even if they are entry level..phones are for tracking unless you are bloody good at mixing imho
 
I've always viewed it as "your playback system is what it is."

I don't see any particular reason why you can't get a good mix out of any relatively accurate playback device, be it far-field loudspeakers, near-field loudspeakers, headphones, or earbuds. The only condition I would place on it is that the playback device needs to be reasonably accurate in both the transient (i.e., accurate temporal-shift representation) and steady-state (i.e., accurate frequency response) domains. Of course, that's the killer right there.

I've always maintained that on the low-budget, you can get a better-sounding result out of a pair of headphones than a similarly-budgeted loudspeaker. I say "budgeted" because speakers interact with the listening room, which might require more money to adjust (or not, as Glen mentioned).

Before talking anecdotal evidence, I just want to point out that no system is perfect.

For headphones, you have the benefit of low-volume output requirements, typically lower costs, more distinct spatial imaging, and zero room interaction. On the flip side, you also have to contend with generally less accurate response, faster fatigue, the lack of joint-listening capability, and zero room response (yes, it's both an advantage and a disadvantage).

For loudspeakers, typically the converse of the above is true (since the contrast was between the two), though generally speaking there's an additional element of relative fragility: it's easier to cause mechanical damage to a piece of furniture that weighs 20+ pounds and has exposed moving parts than than a lightweight accessory that generally has it's moving parts tucked away. I know what you're thinking, but this is important when you have particularly small locations (like some home studio environments), where you might have to consider that you could accidentally nudge/bump your speakers while moving gear (or yourself) around.

Anyway, for the anecdotal part (to fit in with everyone else): I've done listening tests in-store for both headphone and near-field playback devices.

For my money, my $200 (new, typical street price) Beyerdynamic DT770's hold up at least as well (typically better) to my scrutiny than any commonly manufactured new speaker pair on the market today under about $800/pair (new, street price). To get to speakers that I really thought out-shined those headphones, I very quickly found myself in the $1000/pair range. Given that room treatments were also out of the question for me at the time (in college and constantly moving between rented apartments), there wasn't really any question how I should go about getting my system in place. Even if they weren't, room treatments could have easily totaled an additional cost equivalent to the headphones in the first place.

Have all my mixes been great? Definitely not. But I'm more apt to believe that the fault lies mostly with me and my ears than with the deficiencies of the playback system (sometimes the mixes have been good, also). I have never heard a particularly convincing argument that convinces me that there is some inherent deficiency making it impossible to mix well on headphones. Certainly there's arguments for why it's not preferable, but that's not really the topic of interest.

As always, YMMV.
 
If you're going to work hard to train your ears to mix on headphones...
...why is that any different than working with so-so monitors and/or in a less-than-pro studio environment...???


:D
 
If you're going to work hard to train your ears to mix on headphones...
...why is that any different than working with so-so monitors and/or in a less-than-pro studio environment...???


:D

Space and cost. Didn't I mention that up above?
 
Well...if you don't have the space for monitors...then what kind of space do you have for tracking? :)

And if you don't have the $$$...then how do you afford the other things you need? (I'm not talking about guys that have $400 and try to buy a "studio" made up of the cheapest stuff.) Even the most bare necessities for *good* studio are going to cost much more than that...so then why get all cheap/tight when it comes time for monitors? ;)

I'm sorry...but this idea by some that you CAN get a "studio" for a few hundred just by skipping over certain key gear...or just buying a lot of very cheap gear, well, is rather foolish, IMHO.
It's like buying only a small salad when you know you need a full meal...w/dessert. It doesn't work...you just end up being hungry and asking for more anyway. :D
 
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