spdif out on dvd player

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mikedaul

New member
I just got a cheap apex dvd player to use strictly as a cd player via its spdif out into my layla 24. I'm getting all kinds of snaps and pops. I assume this is due to the shitty clock of the dvd player as the only way to get the layla console to monitor the signal is to set the clock source to the spdif. Has anyone had any luck with a similar setup? Is there a different bargain priced dvd/cd player with digital outs that might work better?

Thanks for any help...
 
Another idea I've been wrestling with is returning the Apex and getting an SACD player. However, I'd hate to shell out $250 only to find I'm going to have the same kind of problems...

Thanks again for any help!

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So I did some reading and it seems that the cheap SACD players can't do SACD over s/pdif!! Damn. So, now I'm hunting for dj cd players. There's a stanton unit that is about $150. Any ideas about that?
 
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This may be a dumb question but why don't you just play the CD off of the computer CDROM drive?

The only dependable CD player with Spdif that I have used is the Alesis Masterlink. They can be found on Ebay for around $700
 
This may be a dumb question but why don't you just play the CD off of the computer CDROM drive?
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Not dumb at all - I would love to do this, but the layla24 lacks a cd input on the ide card, so there's no way to get digital out from the cddrive to the layla. I've been eyeing masterlinks, it just seems like a lot of $$ for something I'd only use as a cd player. I think I'm going to head by banjo center and pickup a dj tabletop player to see if it does the job.
 
mikedaul said:
Not dumb at all - I would love to do this, but the layla24 lacks a cd input on the ide card, so there's no way to get digital out from the cddrive to the layla.
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Thats where you are mistaken. All soundcards can play cds via the pci bus - no need for any other connection between the cd drive and the sound card. It is actually a really bad thing to connect a cdrom drive with a digital cable to a soundcard (for the few cards that have that option) because that means you lose use of your digital input for anything else and your clock is derived from the crappy clock of the cdrom.

The current versions of windows media player and winamp3 have an option to to play cds digitally. Just select the option. I use winamp 2 and use the cd reader input plugin for the same purpose (do a google for cdreader).

Essentially what the software is doing is ripping the tracks off the cd in real time and playing them.
 
Thats where you are mistaken. All soundcards can play cds via the pci bus - no need for any other connection between the cd drive and the sound card.
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I've never been able to play a cd unless I have the drive physically attached to a soundcard.

When I play a cd in winamp 3 and I select the digital outs of my layla for playback, I get nothing. However, If I play an mp3 it works fine.


It is actually a really bad thing to connect a cdrom drive with a digital cable to a soundcard (for the few cards that have that option) because that means you lose use of your digital input for anything else and your clock is derived from the crappy clock of the cdrom.
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I'm not really concerned with consumer cards, but for the sake of argument, my soundblaster live platinum has on the card 2 cdrom connectors and an extra digital connector (hooks up to the digital output of a dvdrom drive for example). I have all 3 hooked up on my work box. The breakout box has 2 spdif connectors as well (in and out). I can use all of these inputs at the same time with no problem.

Also, so far as I've experienced, when recording (or playing) through spdif, the clock defaults to the device doing the playing.


The current versions of windows media player and winamp3 have an option to to play cds digitally. Just select the option. I use winamp 2 and use the cd reader input plugin for the same purpose (do a google for cdreader).
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i did dome digging on the winamp cd reader plugin. It seems to have bad jitter problems. Also, it's doing DAC on the fly - not exactly what I want from a reference cd player (I just want pure digital signal to feed to my layla and let it's DAC's do the work).

From the winamp website (this is what the plugin you mentioned bypasses):

Why doesn't the equalizer work in the CD audio and MIDI plug-ins?

Winamp plays these formats "passively", meaning the actual sound data never goes through Winamp. In the case of CD audio, it goes from your CD-ROM to your sound card through a cable inside your computer, and in the case of MIDI, your sound card actually synthesizes the sound from MIDI events recorded in the file. Either way, it's out of Winamp's reach, so to speak.


So... in conclusion, I'll report back on how the dj cd player works. I'm hoping the clock will be better than consumer gear, so my fingers are crossed...
 
When winamp or media player is playing cds digitally, what is happening is that it is digitally extracting the data and then using your layla (or my mia) to play the digitally extracted wave file in real time. It is exactly the same as if you ripped your cd to a wave file and then played the wave file. Then is no additional jitter (jitter level is determined by your soundcard in this case) or quality loss. The extraction should be bit perfect.

Try the current version of windows media player. Make sure you have selected digital playback in the devices menu under options. I have not used winamp3 but others have successfully so I cannot comment.

Also I am not sure of what you are saying is wrong with the cdreader plugin for winamp2. The cdreader plugin sends the cd data over the pci/ide bus. It replaces the standard winamp cd plugin which uses the analog cable to playback cds. Isnt that what you want, a plugin that plays cds without a cable between the cdrom and the soundcard?
 
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I haven't hooked up an audio cable from the CDRom to the Soundcard in years. Windows Media Player can play the CDs. You may have to enable Digital CD Playback in the Multi Media Properties.

That's pretty standard these days so it shouldn't be much of a hassle.
 
The only way I can get winamp or media player to play cd output through my layla is to set the layla output as the default audio playback device in windows, which is NOT what I want to do. And while the cd playback sounded ok routed this way, I have a feeling it would sound better just going straight to the layla via spdif instead of being DAC'd by windows. At any rate, I appreciate your stab at assistance.
 
mikedaul said:
And while the cd playback sounded ok routed this way, I have a feeling it would sound better just going straight to the layla via spdif instead of being DAC'd by windows.
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I dont see why it would be better sound quality wise to use an external cd player. I would expect it to be worse as your jitter levels will likely be higher.

ps are you using the latest version of media player. my version allows me to select what soundcard i want to use independent of the settings in the windows control panel.
 
Actually I did think of a reason why windows media player could be worse but winamp should be fine - the kmixer resampling issue. I dont think you can use the echo purewave drivers with wmp but you can with winamp or you can use the asio drivers with winamp. Purewave and asio bypass the windows xp kmixer.

Winamp allows you to select which soundcard you want to use, though I am unsure if you need to download any additional output plugins or if the standard wave output plugin can do it. You can download the asio plugin from the japanese guy http://www.aikis.or.jp/~otachan/

I've added quite a few plugins so I dont have the original plugins around.
 
Windows is not doing ANY DAC'ing here. The digital data from the CD is sent to the motherboard via the IDE cable. The CPU then routes the exact same digital data to the PCI bus and then to the soundcard. The soundcard receives the digital stream and converts it to analog. Any reason why you don't want the Layla as the default Windows sound device? I use a Delta 44 and it's the only sound device in my system (except for the disabled soundcard built into the motherboard). I have no problems playing back CDs.
Good luck!

mikedaul said:
And while the cd playback sounded ok routed this way, I have a feeling it would sound better just going straight to the layla via spdif instead of being DAC'd by windows. At any rate, I appreciate your stab at assistance.
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Windows is not doing ANY DAC'ing here. The digital data from the CD is sent to the motherboard via the IDE cable. The CPU then routes the exact same digital data to the PCI bus and then to the soundcard. The soundcard receives the digital stream and converts it to analog. Any reason why you don't want the Layla as the default Windows sound device? I use a Delta 44 and it's the only sound device in my system (except for the disabled soundcard built into the motherboard). I have no problems playing back CDs.
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It's not doing DAC (my mistake), but it is doing some sort of audio conversion, something like on the fly DAE (I was unable to find specifics on google). If it were as simple as you outlined above then there would never have been a need for using the cable that connects the soundcard to the cdrom.

I am using the onboard sound of my asus av78x as the primary audio device under windows xp. I don't want to disable system sounds, and I don't want windows jacking up my layla when I'm using it. So I have windows sound mapper "use preferred device only" which in theory releases all the os overhead from my layla. I then have my studio monitors hooked up to the analog outs of the layla, which I use for recording. The setup also makes for a handy reference station for playing back stuff on my computer speakers.

I hope that when I get this dj cd player I can do some evaluative tests between the varying connection methods.
 
Actually I did think of a reason why windows media player could be worse but winamp should be fine - the kmixer resampling issue. I dont think you can use the echo purewave drivers with wmp but you can with winamp or you can use the asio drivers with winamp. Purewave and asio bypass the windows xp kmixer.
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Damn, if I can access asio drivers in winamp I'd be very happy. The directsound drivers (built in to winamp 3) won't play the cd audio (as per my original problem), but I wonder if the asio plugin will?

Thanks again for the help!
 
mikedaul said:
It's not doing DAC (my mistake), but it is doing some sort of audio conversion, something like on the fly DAE (I was unable to find specifics on google). If it were as simple as you outlined above then there would never have been a need for using the cable that connects the soundcard to the cdrom.
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What he described IS on the fly DAE. It really is as simple as he has described. When you play cds digitally, the audio data is extracted digitally (exactly the same as ripping a CD, otherwise known as digital audio extraction DAE), sent down the ide bus to the cpu, then sent to the soundcard via the pci bus. The DAE is usually bit perfect so there is no change in the data (except for the kmixer issue so use the purewave or asio drivers for your layla if you use XP).

In the past CDroms were not fast enough to perform DAE in real time and cpus were not fast enough to process the data. That is why they needed the cable. Now they are fast enough so the cable is no longer necessary.

I dont know why you are so stubborn and refuse to accept the explanation offered to you by everyone on this thread. They are the facts. Are you seeking justification for having bought a DJ cd player?

Regarding winamp 3, I have not used it but you need to setup the input plugins for the cd (not output plugins) so that it plays digitally. So many people have used it successfully that there is no reason you cant unless your cdrom is really old and doesnt support DAE.

Finally I am not sure why you need to have the 'use preferred devices only' ticked to achieve what you want. Windows automatically defaults to the chosen device.
 
mike, EVERYONE uses their computer for the best possible CD copies and file transfers. There is no more pure way of getting the data off of the CD whether you listen to it on the fly or rip it into .wav files and play if off the hard disc.
 
I dont know why you are so stubborn and refuse to accept the explanation offered to you by everyone on this thread. They are the facts. Are you seeking justification for having bought a DJ cd player?
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I have not purchased anything yet. Why are you so quick to get hostile? I'll I've done is thank people for their advice and spoken of things as I've experienced them. The "fact" for me is that when using a soundcard that is NOT setup as the playback device in windows XP I am unable to get the cd audio to play through an alternate sound card. I have my system set up this way because it works well for me. I'm sorry you don't approve.

I feel that using an external cd player will be the ideal setup for me. It's just easier to pop in a cd and hit play and get instant playback instead of opening windows media player (I hate the interface and I hate loading custom skins even more) or even worse the horribly bloated winamp3. If it ends up not working well, I'll just return it. I appreciate all attempts folks have made towards helping me. I guess I need to spend more time recording and less time lurking on these boards.
 
mike, EVERYONE uses their computer for the best possible CD copies and file transfers. There is no more pure way of getting the data off of the CD whether you listen to it on the fly or rip it into .wav files and play if off the hard disc.
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But would you say that everyone uses the cdrom in their computer for the best reference playback of audio cd's through their monitor setup? I would imagine not.

It's not the getting the cd data into the computer part so much as it's the getting the audio out in the best way possible. Why should I route the audio through my OS when I can send it straight to the layla in a pure hardware path to my monitors? I guess it's cheaper to do it all "in the box" but I'd prefer to have a dedicated hardware solution.
 
Sorry for my previous post. I was feeling fustrated that you were criticising the accurate information given to you by a number of people, all of whom were just trying to help. Your previous reasons for not accepting their advice didnt make much sense. I apologise for not being more patient.

If you had originally said it was more convenient for you to use an external cd player, or that you were not comfortable using a software cd player, then no one would disagree. That is a perfectly valid reason for using an external cd player.

However you keep pushing the technical superiority of the external cd player (used purely as a transport/digital source) yet provide no facts to support your position.

In answer to you original question, I have successfully used an el cheapo dvd player to connect to an echo mia and to a cmedia consumer soundcard (m-audio dio2448 equivalent). I had to enter the setup menu of the dvd player to make sure it was outputting pcm audio. Hope that helps.
 
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If you are simply trying to monitor digital audio through your soundcard using your DVD player, here are some suggestions you might want to consider.

I also own an Apex and have never experienced issues w/ the DAC being noisey. The first thing I ask is if you are using a proper 75ohm RCA cable? The easiest thing to do this with would be a standard RCA Composite video cable, which is also 75ohm.

Second, have you played around with the settings in the DVD player? The digital output has a few options, like straight PCM or a few other formats. Try flipping through these.

The soundcard on your motherboard is almost more software than actual hardware, as it is more than likely developed around the AC97 codec standards. If it is an actual onboard chipset (SB Live, par example), then this is not the case.

It is not fact that all cd roms can transfer digital audio over the IDE bus. If the CDRom is 3~4 or more years old, there is a good chance that it will not actually play over the bus.

Selecting your outputs as the Echo card are not enough. You have to tell the software to read from the drive digitally.

Regarding SACD players, I was under the impression that you weren't able to use a digital output from an SACD player for SACD audio. I remember when they first came out, many audiophiles were up in arms over the fact that their $50k home theatres had to rely on analogue inputs for SACD, this may have chnaged, I dunno....
 
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