Sonic Maximizers

[chessrock]

I think bsabbath used one on his guitar sound, and I would venture he has probably posted some of the best sounding guitars to ever come out of the MP3 clinic.

Just because something sucks ... and one guy used it and somehow managed to get good results despite it's sheer suck factor ... doesn't make something any less sucky.

If someone's tracking really good guitar tones despite inserting said suck box in signal chain, then great. I have total respect for the guy. But getting good guitar sounds is difficult enough without the poo knob engaged. Why make it any harder on yourself than it already is?

 

[riccol]

Dangit!!!
I read --- try to learn -- go back listen some more -- then read a few more posts -- study what Chessrock has to say -- just when I start to think I'm making progress he throws out pro-terms like making things less "sucky"
and now I've got to do some searches on the "poo knob"

But I dang sure aint' buying a sonic maximizer!!

 

[Warhead]

Just because something sucks ... and one guy used it and somehow managed to get good results despite it's sheer suck factor ... doesn't make something any less sucky.

On Gearslutz Mike Shipley was guest mod for a month and someone asked him about the clean guitar sounds on "Hysteria". He said the secret was a Tom Scholtz Rockman although it was modified. I swear it seemed like a ton of guys were acting like it was time run out to get one and he begged them..."don't buy it...it's crap!". It was sort of funny, he made it work for one unique sound and even had to get it modified at that...but I bet eBay had a ton of searches that day...

Gear, gotta love it.

War

 

[mixmkr]

Just because something sucks ... and one guy used it and somehow managed to get good results despite it's sheer suck factor ... doesn't make something any less sucky.

sure it does. reread what you just said. if someone got good results, that pulls it out of the "less sucky" pile doesn't it? maybe all the other users are just home recording idiots.

 

[Farview]

The BBE (used to be short for Barcus Berry Electronics) uses a process to align harmonics. They have a link to a white paper on their site. It is not an EQ. A properly recorded and mixed song will not benefit much by them IMO. To use one insinuates impropper tools or skills were used to correct the signal.

Align the harmonics with what? I prefer leaving my harmonics exactly where I recorded them.

Anyway it is supposed to make up for some deficiency in loudspeaker design. Somehow magicly put everything back in place so the speakers cant screw up the sound. It doesn't take into account that all speakers will need different amounts of processing to compensate. All this would make more sense as something on a playback system, not a recording studio. In the studio you are presumably compensating for the deficiencies of you studio monitors, wouldn't it stand to reason that you would need more (or less) to compensate for your car speakers?

I could see using it for PA systems and even home stereo applications for the purposes that it was designed (according to the white paper) But recording, it can only be used as an effect because there is no way to truely compensate for everyones stereo system. Don't even get me started on guitar rig applications.

 

[FALKEN]

i thought that they adjust the timing between the highs and the lows to compensate for the different speeds they travel at.

 

[JazzMang]

i thought that they adjust the timing between the highs and the lows to compensate for the different speeds they travel at.

Adjusting 'timing' = digital distortion and signal thrashing.

 

[Farview]

i thought that they adjust the timing between the highs and the lows to compensate for the different speeds they travel at.

It isn't so much the different speeds, it is the fact that the highs get reproduced faster. You will notice some monitors have the tweeters pushed back farther than the woofers, that is to compensate for this 'problem'. Mind you, if you have speakers that are built like that, adding the bbe will cause the problem it was meant to solve.

 

[Sir Dingo]

I play in a duo. We have our own PA. I have a BBE 462. It is the last link in the chain before hitting the power amp. The high f is set to 12 o' clock, the low f at 3.

The sound without the BBE can best be described as 'dull'. With the BBE our PA comes 'alive'.

Bear in mind, if you thrash the unit, it will fukk up your sound. It is the closest thing to a 'SOAR' knob ever.

I will never play another gig without one.

I was so pleased with the BBE in our live rig that I bought one for the studio. It has seldom been used in the studio. One great use though, was using the BBE on some old cassette tapes a client wanted transferred to CD. Fantastic when used sparingly.

Most beginners use and expect the BBE to be some kind of magical mastering tool. This is a false assumption. I can best describe the BBE as a unit that can pleasurably enhance an 'average' sound to give it some low & top end sparkle.

You can buy them pre-loved on ebay for next to nothing. Their price/performance ratio makes them one of the best bargains in live audio available today.

Try one in your PA before you hit the amps. Then turn it off and listen to the difference. I bet the BBE will never again leave your rack...

YMMV

Dingo

 

[chessrock]

It's usually the gigging musicians who like to use them on their PAs ... ya see, most live bands that don't wear hearing protection when they rehearse have at least a certain amount of high-frequency hearing loss. These are usually the ones that really dig the bbe. And if you don't have high-freq hearing loss, then you probably will after repeated usage of the bbe.

 

[lpdeluxe]

The SM is great for what it was designed for: correcting phase problems in less-than-perfect speakers. And it has nothing to do with how fast the different parts of the signal travel: all frequencies go down the wire together. It's only when they hit the cheap crossovers and misaligned drivers that they get separated.

I have a 462 in my living room, and it does great. Music sounds much better there with it in the signal path. That's what they are for, rather than added sizzle or whatever to recordings.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Woah... look out if behringer ever clones the BBE Sonic maximizer

They have...it's called the Ultrafex and I unfortunately paid $100 for one two years ago when I started home recording. I don't think it's terrible and use it sparingly on home recordings, but then again I don't have great equipment as someone said, and that is the truth. For live apps it may help do what you want it to do, but I think a lot of the "cut" or not in live vocals starts with the tone of the voice and vocal chords of each person singing....some voices cut with abundant high end and mids, some do not. As stated, you should be able to dissect each person's voice, one-by-one, figure out whether it lacks high end, midrange, etc., naturally, then go to your eq and adjust accordingly to accentuate each of the voices. I would think that would pull them out in front of the mix nicely. Farview's idea and good advice, I'm just spelling it out.
Mai too sense

 

[MOFO Pro]

They have...it's called the Ultrafex

You know... as soon as I wrote that I figured Behringer probably had some product that performed such...

The comment was mostly in jest... Folks come out of the woodwork to stomp all over Berhinger & BBE, I tend to agree with them... but don't really care... I've got a sonic maximizer... it's hooked up to my living room stereo, right where it belongs... performs brilliantly... just as designed.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

In jest?? Oh my, I thought you were serious.

 

[Toker41]

You guys that say "if you eq and mix right you don't need it" have no idea what the hell you are talking about, or what they do. It has nothing to do with eq. These units are in EVERY major recording studio I have ever been in. I was at NFL films 2 weeks ago, and they had a rack full of them. These are a highly respected piece of gear in the industry. Those that claim proper eq would render a BBE useless have never used one, and have no understanding of the technology involved. It is NOT an eq. I love when a bunch of armatures with delusions of grander start yelling "IT'S CRAP" without any real understanding of the product, or when they only tried it for one application...or really have no idea what it does, or how to use it properly. They don't say "I didn't like it", no...they claim "it's crap because I didn't like it". It's as bad as those that say "anything made by Behringer is crap". It's just wannabes talking out their ass. These kind of people can usally have very limited verbal command and use phrases like "it sucks", yet can't explain in any detail what it does that they didn't like, and really don't even understand the english language, let alone the product they are giving "advice" on.
BBE is found as onboard equipment on many top end TV's and home stereo equipment now. It is now being found on top end car stereo's, as well. And like I said, they are in EVERY major studio, and mastering company I have ever been in.

This is what it does:

Loudspeakers have difficulty working with the electronic signals supplied by an amplifier. These difficulties cause such
major phase and amplitude distortion that the sound reproduced by speaker differs significantly from the sound
produced by the original source.
In the past, these problems proved unsolvable and were thus delegated to a position of secondary importance in audio
system design. However, phase and amplitude integrity is essential to accurate sound reproduction. Research shows
that the information which the listener translates into the recognizable characteristics of a live performance are
intimately tied into complex time and amplitude relationships between the fundamental and harmonic components
of a given musical note or sound. These relationships define a sound's “sound”.
When these complex relationships pass through a speaker, the proper order is lost. The higher frequencies are delayed.
A lower frequency may reach the listener's ear first or perhaps simultaneously with that of a higher frequency. In some
cases, the fundamental components may be so time-shifted that they reach the listener's ear ahead of some or all of
the harmonic components.
This change in the phase and amplitude relationship on the harmonic and fundamental frequencies is technically
called “envelope distortion.” The listener perceives this loss of sound integrity in the reproduced sound as "muddy"
and “smeared.” In the extreme, it can become difficult to tell the difference between musical instruments, for example,
an oboe and a clarinet.
BBE Sound, Inc. conducted extensive studies of numerous speaker systems over a ten year period. With this knowledge,
it became possible to identify the characteristics of an ideal speaker and to distill the corrections necessary to return
the fundamental and harmonic frequency structures to their correct order. While there are differences among various
speaker designs in the magnitude of their correction, the overall pattern of correction needed is remarkably consistent.

 

[Track Rat]

Ya know, you're absolutely right. If you find merit with these, knock yourself out.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Loudspeakers have difficulty working with the electronic signals supplied by an amplifier. These difficulties cause such
major phase and amplitude distortion that the sound reproduced by speaker differs significantly from the sound
produced by the original source.
In the past, these problems proved unsolvable and were thus delegated to a position of secondary importance in audio
system design. However, phase and amplitude integrity is essential to accurate sound reproduction. Research shows
that the information which the listener translates into the recognizable characteristics of a live performance are
intimately tied into complex time and amplitude relationships between the fundamental and harmonic components
of a given musical note or sound. These relationships define a sound's “sound”.
When these complex relationships pass through a speaker, the proper order is lost. The higher frequencies are delayed.
A lower frequency may reach the listener's ear first or perhaps simultaneously with that of a higher frequency. In some
cases, the fundamental components may be so time-shifted that they reach the listener's ear ahead of some or all of
the harmonic components.
This change in the phase and amplitude relationship on the harmonic and fundamental frequencies is technically
called “envelope distortion.” The listener perceives this loss of sound integrity in the reproduced sound as "muddy"
and “smeared.” In the extreme, it can become difficult to tell the difference between musical instruments, for example,
an oboe and a clarinet.
BBE Sound, Inc. conducted extensive studies of numerous speaker systems over a ten year period. With this knowledge,
it became possible to identify the characteristics of an ideal speaker and to distill the corrections necessary to return
the fundamental and harmonic frequency structures to their correct order. While there are differences among various
speaker designs in the magnitude of their correction, the overall pattern of correction needed is remarkably consistent.

I also have some green markers and wooden knobs to sell -- rimming your CD with the green marker will make them sound unbelievable, and you haven't heard sonic purity unless you've replaced all the knobs on your equipment with high-end wood ones....

I agree with Track Rat, if you find a legitimate use for them, then great! They are, after all, simply tools -- a means to an end. What I object to about them is that in the hands of novices, they're often used as a replacement for good recording practices - ie proper mic selection/placement.

As far as you seeing them in TV studios -- when was the last time TV techs ever cared about the sound quality of their audio????

 

[JazzMang]

As far as you seeing them in TV studios -- when was the last time TV techs ever cared about the sound quality of their audio????

This is true.

If they were so concerned about the sound quality, then they wouldn't compress the bejesus out of everything either.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I guess I'll jump into these turgid waters...

First, the compression is coming from the broadcast facilities, not the studios where the audio for TV is created (although I'm sure they use compression in their mixes there as well). And there are legitimate reasons why compression is used in broadcast. Also, if you've ever seen the NFL films facility or read about it, you'll know that it is a pretty first class operation. It's not some hack room without audio standards.

Second, if you consider the BBE process *an effect* you are in a pretty good place to use it. I think the danger comes in buying into some of the advertising, where it becomes a "fix it after the mix" kind of box. i.e., the whole business of adding sparkle, rejuvenating lifeless dull mixes, etc. It actually can do that to a certain extent, but if the mix is lifeless then obviously the best solution is to go back and remix. But used judiciously, the BBE can be effectively used in the studio on individual tracks, in my opinion.

I own a BBE 862, and have found it useful from time to time. Very rarely it's true, but I'm still very glad I have it for those times when nothing else can quite do what it does. I don't use it on whole mixes, just individual tracks. And I do agree with the poster that said that eq can't do the same thing. That is completely correct, the BBE process is different than an eq.

Probably more useful in the days of cassette tape, I remember finding the BBE really handy for helping out cassette copies. But ultimately, it's just another tool in the studio arsenal.

 

[Toker41]

NFL Films is a major recording studio of both audio, and video. It is not a "TV studio". It is one of the most respected studios in the world.


As far as objections to BBE's being "...in the hands of novice". 90% of the people here are just that. 97% of the people giving advice here are part of that 90%.

You do make a good point, though. They are not a "fix" for bad recording practices. Nor are they a "fix all" in general. But it is a quality piece of gear, and certainly has a place in guitar/bass racks, and recording. People doing home recording would be better off with the plug-in. Add one to your guitar rack, and you will never take it out. When recording electronic drums, it is essential to have one in line.