songwriting formulas!

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brando0

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hey guys! we often hear about formulas for songwriting.
now it would be helpful for us to examine the different formulas adopted by numerous successful songwriters throughout the years.

i like to take the beatles as an example....they had a killer formula that is still being used today in pop music.
what's your take on it?
peace
brando
 
Not sure what you're getting at here...

Do you mean "form" or "formula?" When I use the word "formula" when discussing songs, I usually mean it as a disparaging remark. I'm not sure if you mean a formula as being some mechanical process of producing a song, but if you do, I fear for your musical soul.

A form, on the other hand, is something to the order of: "verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus"

Or purhaps you mean "chord progression?"
 
Yes a FORMULA! any top selling artist has one. yes it does include a form i.e. intro-verse-bridge-chorus etc, but the formula is really about the chords progression used, and the placing of them that along with the form create a formula.

for example Tupac always uses the same one, Stevie wonder on the other hand uses various ones. Babyface uses always the same one too

it's not like there's book of formulas....... you do come up with one and if it works then you have a winning one.

if you are to write HIT songs then you need a formula.
 
Create your own formula. Would you rather be creating the curve, or slavishly following behind it?
 
I've met some very talented people during my career in music. I've been around some good songwriters, but I've never been really interested in songwriting myself until I quit playing live.
'Fomula' in songwriting, be it lyrical or compostion, can sometimes be a touchy topic.
I was introduced to Brian Trusedale, (I hope I spelt his name right) back in 1992. At the time I had a bunch of my own songs written out in a haphazzard manner. I had been working on one song for a while, trying to make it better when I met Brian.
We talked alot about the industry and our lives on the road. He seemed quite relaxed with me, so I thought I'd ask him for a tip or two.
Now, at this time, I knew next-to-nothing of songwriting and had never heard, to my knowledgeable memory, the term 'fomula' used in relationship to songwriting.
In my usual blunt, want to know, way of speaking, I asked him for a formula on a song I was working on.
The man clammed up and refused to talk me since.
Though Brian has sold many songs, he hadn't hit the big time. He guarded his secrets thinking (and this is from friends of his who knew him well) "that if he gave out his secrets, someone would use them and write the song he should be writing", and that everyone is out to rip him off.
All I wanted was some advice, and he seemed reseptive to all my probes up until I used the term 'formula'. Brian died in 97 thinking I was after his music, not that I was asking for some help with one of my songs.

Anyway, that was my introduction into the 'fomula' writing theater.

A definition of a 'formula' can be as varied as the people who use the term.
Example: Recipe, format, arrangment, etc.
A lot of us here in this forum don't just sit down and begin to write a song on a blank page, whether on paper or mind. We usually begin when inspiration, a vist from the muse, as some would say, to kick start us.
Being inspired and writing your lyrics/music down doesn't mean you have a hit on your hands. I have hundreds of songs that are crap, all written by inspiration.
With experience and time, you, as a songwriter, develope little quwerks, formulas, for taking some insired song that you wrote and crafting it into something worth listening to. Something other people want to listen to. Some people's formulas are the structure, they use one or two structures in all their songs with success. They have a reason for this. Other people use hook placement as one of the guns from their arsenal of tricks, dug out from their basic formula.
Another example of a formula can be the Major vs Minor chords.
This is a basic rule/non-rule, mind you, that most beginning songwriters follow though they are unaware of it. Most professional songwriters I've read about or talked to use this also. Happy songs tend to fit into a chordal arrangement of Major chords, while sad songs and ballads will be peppered through out with minor chords.
This is a time tested and well used formula.


We all have cooked something in our lives, even if it's toast.
Put the toast in the toaster, before you butter the bread,,,,, etc.

A recipe is a formula.

When a formula is used in songwriting, it's doesn't mean 'rules' except to the songwriter who looks at the formula as his own rule book because they have worked well for him in the past. To my mind right now, comes the man most of us here know as Crawdad. I'm sure he uses the same time tested formulas over and again, because they work for him. Also, Joro and Chris Shaeffer. I lisen to these guys songs, over and over. They use a fomrula, whether they relalize it or not.

When working on a song, how does one determine how some horns, for example, would fit in between lines of the backup singers?
Or a structure (we all seem to be fairly secure with the term structure) one feels comfortable in while writing his/her song. Experience, over time for most of us.
"Well, that idea didn't work, I'll try this one, again. It worked before."

A song that stumbles, lyically, melodicly or otherwise, will not be replayed or asked for. It may of been written with help from the muse, but touching it up will require some kind of formula.

Some songwriters have 'rules, a 'recipe', or a 'formula' they have found that works for them, time and time again, as Brando has mentioned.

Some songwriters I know work everything out on paper, then make a cassette of it and listen to how the song moves through the different structure setup, bpm, key. If there is a pothole or a bump, they can fix it.

Chord arrangment has a long list of fomulas by various songwriters/composers.


We all use formulas in every aspect of life.
To cut firewood for your fireplace next winter, you don't go out and begin chopping hunks of wood from a standing tree.
Well, if you've never cut wood before, you might. But over time you gain experinece and learn that by cutting down the tree, trimming the limbs off you have a much easier job of stacking a cord of firewood.
Same is true with songwriting. Try and true. Live and learn. Trying other songwriters formulas.
We will develope a standard, a formula, we work by. One trick I hear quite often is to keep an open mind and be ready to adjust your time proven formula if the situation arrises. May not be a trick, but most everything can be improved upon.

We all know the saying about variety and spice.

I wrote this out after some thought. Songwriting formulas may scare some people away, like the word theory does. But like music theory, get past the verbage and down to the core, it's quite easy to grasp and utilize.
This is a short take on my idea of songwriting formulas. I have never sold a song. I'm not a songwriter. I'm a musician trying to learn to write songs. Don't take any of what I've written as the gospel. It's only my opinion.

I'd like to hear your opinions on this subject.
I'll make another post soon with some of the fomulas I use. They have been posted many times here in this forum, but never talked about until Brando started this thread.
Hopefully, we can all gain a bit of understanding and some new ideas to help us along the way by trading information with each other.
Who else have I/You/We got to turn to? Brian's dead. You're still kicking.

I hope I didn't bore anyone to tears.
 
Badgas,
this post i started at the suggestion of another member after i replied to the thread: "do you believe that there rules for songwriting?" where i touched the formulas subject beginning to explain what you so eloquently expanded on.
And i can relate to your story about that songwriter friend of yours.....i lost my music mentor this past feb. his name was Richard Shann, he had been the band leader and close friend of Earth Wind and Fire back in the old days, he was the band leader for the O'jays and he had worked and performed with some of the most talented and famous musicians, he was a goldmine of knowledge but to the contrary of Brian he shared with me what he knew. So i wanted to thank you for taking the time to go in details about the very core of songwriting.
Brando

Sky....... do you get it now?
 
Got it from post one. You prefer following to leading. Nothing to be ashamed of.
 
Skysaw said:
Got it from post one. You prefer following to leading. Nothing to be ashamed of.
I'm puzzled, Skysaw.
I read Brando's first post and didn't see where he was pro or con on the formula topic, although he started it.

If you see him as pro-formula, and you state, 'that's nothing to be ashamed of', what is your reasoning behind that statement?

If you see him as anti-formula, and youi state, 'that's nothing to be ashamed of', I should agree with you.

Simply because everytime someone writes a song, the have some steps they follow. Whether in an orderly fashion or not.

I'm taken for a ass hole and a prick alot, so I hope you don't think I'm meddling in your business with Brando, it's just that I don't understand why you would say that. What do you know that we don't, about formulas?
 
The premise "The Beatles had a killer formula that is still being used today in pop music," but then saying it "include a form i.e. intro-verse-bridge-chorus etc,..." and is "really about the chords progression used, and the placing of them" shows that we still don't know what he meant by "formula." When the Beatles eventually stopped using other people's forms and chord progressions, I don't think they ever repeated the same forms and chords in thier own songs. So what is a "Beatles formula?" It's a non-question.

"for example Tupac always uses the same one," "Babyface uses always the same one too" ... no wonder their music bores me to tears.

My question is if someone already wrote it, why does everyone else want to write it again? The Beatles didn't fulfil their destiny until they said "screw these old formulas... let's blaze a new trail!"

But to your question, Badgas... Specifically, I said there was no shame in being a follower (short of plagerism) rather than a leader. Of course there is no glory either.
 
Skysaw you ain't getting it man!!!!!!!! and your comments show just that! and how much you really are NOT a listener of songs....and the way the artist gets to what you're listening.

"tupac used always the same formula and babyface uses the same one too...."

that didn't mean that they have been using the same formula but rather that in their songwriting they use THEIR formula over and over a formula that THEY came up with, not copied like you think. besides these people have sold MILLIONS OF RECORDS using their own formulas to write......and you??????????

just because you can't understand something it doesn't mean it's crap!!!!!!!!

and besides just about everything in music has been done at one point or another so whatever your "leading" genius is going to come up with it ain't gonna be something we have never heard before cuz you were influenced by somebody's tunes at one point or another, and by the way music was discovered and not INVENTED....there are seven notes that's it!!!!!! whichever way you decide to place them i am SURE that will not be NEW!!!

learning from the best doesn't mean copying.
peace
Brando
 
"they use THEIR formula over and over a formula that THEY came up with, not copied like you think."

Yes, copying someone else's formula is dreadful, and I didn't imply they did that. But doing even your own original formula "over and over" is pathetic. Where is the growth? This is the rut the music industry as a whole gets into. As long as people keep buying, they will write and produce the same song over and over and over and over.

Sorry if it sounds like I've been getting on your case about this, but as a composer for over 25 years, I lament the fact that too many people believe a "formula" equals the way to artistry. Sure it's important to be able to analyze a song's structure, it's harmony, melody, etc, but expecting it to yeild some sort of recipe for newfound success isn't going to get us another band as important as the Beatles. It's just going to get us a band that can sound like the Beatles. And you know what? We already have that band.

"besides these people have sold MILLIONS OF RECORDS using their own formulas to write......and you??????????"

I'm sorry I did misunderstand you. If you put sales ahead of artistry, then perhaps you are on the right track. But don't sweat the formula then, just get millions of dollars in PR, and that should do the trick.

"just because you can't understand something it doesn't mean it's crap!!!!!!!!"

And just because it's on the radio and/or you can dance to it doesn't mean it isn't.

"...there are seven notes that's it!!!!!! whichever way you decide to place them i am SURE that will not be NEW!!!"

There are many more than seven, you just have to stray from your piano and Western traditional harmony to find them. But that's beside the point. Even using those seven notes, there is fantastic NEW music being made today. It's not played a whole lot on the radio, but they will forever have made an impact by saying something in their own way.

The very reason you think nothing new can be made is because the big labels keep cranking out the same music. Their credo: If it sells, make more of the same. Maybe that's where you want to fit in. If it is, I am sincere when I say I hope you make it in that world. It's a fun and tempting road to try, and has made a few people rich. It's even made a few good artists rich.

For me, having one person accidentally discover one of my albums, and saying to himself "holy crap, this is something!" is worth a million sales.
 
Skysaw said:

For me, having one person accidentally discover one of my albums, and saying to himself "holy crap, this is something!" is worth a million sales.

Not really wanting to be rude but,........................


How can you honestly proclaim such a noble thought if in fact you have not sold a Million?

Do you not think that commercial success is intoxicating?

or just unreachable?

Noble words account for little when nothing is risked or dared...or gained...

Also, popular music may have it's problems......
The business of music may be in jeopardy of collapsing as well....
but, I see great new acts......young and old on my weekly jaunts from tavern to pub........and back.......
There is good music out there........you have to look a little harder for it though...ya know?
Joe
 
Joro,

Not finding you rude, and appreciate the post.

I maintain that it means more to me than a million sales, though I confess that sort of currency is not nearly as fun to spend. Obviously I would love commercial success, but would be a fool to expect it. Yes, it is intoxicating. Yes, it is also all but unreachable to most.

Doesn't mean I haven't risked, dared, and even gained in my endeavours. My whole point is that following formula is NOT risking OR daring... it is putting your bet on the odds favorite.

"but, I see great new acts......young and old on my weekly jaunts from tavern to pub........and back.......
There is good music out there........you have to look a little harder for it though...ya know?"


Yes, I do know... we are agreeing here. I've jaunted a bit myself, and have seen real talent here and there. But looking harder means turning off the radio, and digging up the gold wherever it may lay hidden.
 
still not getting it..... Skysaw..... the formula is ANY WAY YOU COME UP FOR YOUR SONGS!!!!!!! i think that your problem is one of semantics and not actually of factuality.

give me the name of one artist who is doing something new that is out there...... mey be he's proposing his new version of something....but i am sure that someone or somedoby has done it before...... just one and i bet you i can name another artist who's done similar things in the past...... now a far as new sound that may be a different thing all together.
brando
 
still not getting it..... Skysaw..... the formula is ANY WAY YOU COME UP FOR YOUR SONGS!!!!!!! i think that your problem is one of semantics and not one of factuality.

give me the name of one artist who is doing something new that is out there...... mey be he's proposing his new version of something....but i am sure that someone or somedoby has done it before...... just one and i bet you i can name another artist who's done similar things in the past...... now a far as new sound that may be a different thing all together.
brando
 
Anything by Sigur Rós certainly comes to mind. Or Mogwai. Or listen to Sparklehorse's "It's a Wonderful Life," if you'd like a little expansion. I could go on and on.

Question:

"the chords progression used, and the placing of them that along with the form create a formula."

or

"the formula is ANY WAY YOU COME UP FOR YOUR SONGS!!!!!!!"

... which one?
 
^

Not gettin' at anything but isn't the first statement technically covered by the second???
 
Only if "any way" means the same thing as "chord progression and placement."
 
kudos there for naming an artist i am not familiar with....but i am 100% sure that what they are doing they did not invent.... they may be original with their expression and version of it all but for sure they didn't invent it! and here with this "originality" we have moved away from the formula subject cuz originality it is not based on whether you use a formula or not...... that's besides the point.

Only if "any way" means the same thing as "chord progression and placement."....... like i said......"semantics"


brando
 
arrogant, condescending, artsy-fartsy people are annoying.





:p





WATYF




(just thought I'd interject that for no reason in particular. :cool: )
 
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