wheelema
Boner-obo
Re: Which mic/pre/etc.???
Amen. Damned fine tools!
billisa said:
Amen. Damned fine tools!
S
Strange Leaf
New member
wilkee said:
That would mean George Martin is good, not the mike.
A
acorec
Banned
tjohnston said:
The #1 most overlooked attribute on this BBS is this:
Pro equipment is not ONLY designed to sound the best. Another main point is that pro equipment are made to run a buisiness. The stuff has to be designed to run 12 hours a day everyday if need be. That is expensive. All these newcomer cost effective mics have a limited amount of hours/ abuse that they can withstand. Trust me, you use the chinese mics of today in a pro studio and you will find out where they stand in life. In short, the pro studio is a buisiness like any other. Their goal is to record/mix/etc. for as many hours/week as they can. If they started to use alot of cheapo mics, the odds on breakdowns and further expense of repair/replacement go up dramatically. The high end pro mics are cheap insurance in the long run.
B
billisa
New member
acorec said:
That's really an excellent point... It holds true in photography. I've been very lucky to have my images published and awarded. I say that only to make this point. Give me a Canon EOS1 or a Canon Rebel (vastly different in price and build quality and features) and, under many conditions, the pictures taken on the Rebel will not be detectably different than those from an EOS1. I could do tons of scenics and portraits with the Rebel, BUT I wouldn't want to use a Rebel day in and day out shooting 1,000 images a day, and I wouldn't take in the field to cover a war.
Today, with computer design/manufacture the lenses and bodies available for a fraction of what things used to cost is nothing short of incredible.
I used to be a tennis pro... (When I was young) I can buy a racket now for $50. that would've cost $300. 15 years ago, and 25 years ago would have simply not been available. Same thing with golf clubs. Cars too. I bought a '91 Geo Prizm GSI(really a Corolla) several years ago for $2,600 -- 4wheel disc brakes, pwr sunroof, a/c and the same engine as in a Celica. I sold it to my neighbor last year @ 190,000 miles. She's taken it well over 200,000, no major work done (outside clutch) EVER.
Think of it, how often do you or your neighbors get the TV repaired? Are there any more TV repairmen anymore? I suspect there must be, but this used to be a whole industry. I wish mine would break, after 12 years of use, because I want a bigger screen! So far, no luck!
This is a very long-winded way of saying that if we can't come up with good sound, it's not because of our equipment....
W
wilkee
New member
Strange Leaf said:
You have missed the point.
I feel it is not important to heve the best (most expensive?) gear to make damn finerecordings.
The most important pieces of equipment still lies on each side of the producers head!!
A little less compression would be a fine start but??
Tony
M
manning1
Banned
give george anything and he would make it sound good.
i agree compression is way misused these days.
i challenge anyone to be able to tell me which tracks i used cheap tools on and which used expensive tools. i learnt a very hard lesson ten years ago about this from a senior engineer.
imho a lot of folks spend way too much money because they are
too lazy to figure out how to get good resuts via clever engineering from value pticed tools.
i agree compression is way misused these days.
i challenge anyone to be able to tell me which tracks i used cheap tools on and which used expensive tools. i learnt a very hard lesson ten years ago about this from a senior engineer.
imho a lot of folks spend way too much money because they are
too lazy to figure out how to get good resuts via clever engineering from value pticed tools.
E
Englebert
New member
manning1 said:
I agree. Although I do not want to question the superiority of real pro gear, I think many ppl don´t see how good tools and how much potential they already possess because GAS blurs their vision. It´s so fun to buy new toys - I know that from experience!
And I´m afraid BBS´s like this aren´t helping. Many threads seem to be saying:"don´t bother to even try recording anything before you buy this, that and it." Shouldn´t we encourage ppl to learn, not spend a fortune into stuff they don´t know how to use.
Remember, vast majority of people here (including me) are never going to be "pro". So why should they have pro gear? You wouldn´t tell an amateur violinist."Save money for 50 years, get a Stradivarius and then you can start practicing"
R
Rev E
New member
It's hard for me to hear any suggestion that the high-value (usually high price) stuff is not worth it. It's almost sacrilege.
I've made a few major leaps in my sound, all of them costed me a bit more money than usual. I switched from Hosa cables to Mogami--big improvement (made my keyboards and mics sound like new instruments). I upgraded my old Ensoniq KT series keyboard to a Roland JV series then to the XV series (major difference--songs 80 percent there with just the right sounds, little tweaking). I upgraded to Lynx II converters recently--major difference, I mean MAJOR difference in conversion quality and ability to truly evaluate the recording. I upgraded recently to a Sebatron mic pre--a subtle but noticeable difference from before. This one's still in the works, because it's so new, but there is a noticeable difference in sound.
I use my mentor's Neumann U87 or his Schoeps SD condensors---major difference compared to the usual suspects. I totally agree that gear should not be a crutch to a good song. BUT, high quality gear is an automatic entry into high quality "sound." If it really matters to you, buy the best you can afford. Don't buy a lot of junk, buy a few really good pieces and grow from there.
I've made a few major leaps in my sound, all of them costed me a bit more money than usual. I switched from Hosa cables to Mogami--big improvement (made my keyboards and mics sound like new instruments). I upgraded my old Ensoniq KT series keyboard to a Roland JV series then to the XV series (major difference--songs 80 percent there with just the right sounds, little tweaking). I upgraded to Lynx II converters recently--major difference, I mean MAJOR difference in conversion quality and ability to truly evaluate the recording. I upgraded recently to a Sebatron mic pre--a subtle but noticeable difference from before. This one's still in the works, because it's so new, but there is a noticeable difference in sound.
I use my mentor's Neumann U87 or his Schoeps SD condensors---major difference compared to the usual suspects. I totally agree that gear should not be a crutch to a good song. BUT, high quality gear is an automatic entry into high quality "sound." If it really matters to you, buy the best you can afford. Don't buy a lot of junk, buy a few really good pieces and grow from there.
tkingen
Djembes Rock
Rev E,
I agree with you. If your ear notices the difference, you will never be satisfied with the lesser piece. Buy the best you can afford.
That being said, it's usually difficult for most of us "learners" to know that a piece of gear isn't for us until we have some time with it. This requires that we spend money on something that will be sold at a loss to purchase something else later on. I look at this as the cost of education.
Of course great recordings can be made with all kinds of gear...consumer and pro. But, in the final analysis, there's a reason that the best stuff is used in the best studios.
Does anybody think that their favorite commercial recordings would sound the same if Behringer mics, preamps, mixers and monitors were used for tracking, mixing and mastering? It's a given that someome like Roger Nichols or Chuck Ainsley *may* be able to pull it off, but they wouldn't be happy about it!
Terry
I agree with you. If your ear notices the difference, you will never be satisfied with the lesser piece. Buy the best you can afford.
That being said, it's usually difficult for most of us "learners" to know that a piece of gear isn't for us until we have some time with it. This requires that we spend money on something that will be sold at a loss to purchase something else later on. I look at this as the cost of education.
Of course great recordings can be made with all kinds of gear...consumer and pro. But, in the final analysis, there's a reason that the best stuff is used in the best studios.
Does anybody think that their favorite commercial recordings would sound the same if Behringer mics, preamps, mixers and monitors were used for tracking, mixing and mastering? It's a given that someome like Roger Nichols or Chuck Ainsley *may* be able to pull it off, but they wouldn't be happy about it!
Terry
R
Rev E
New member
tkingen said:
You can say that again.
Terry,
Here's where I differ a bit from you. There are far too many beginners who ignore good advice or ignore all advice and just buy the latest cheap crap that comes in their biweekly Musician's Friend magazine. There is a lot of very good advice around many Internet boards about high quality-inexpensive gear that no beginner will likely sell or get rid of, even when they get more gear. Dynamics like EV RE 20s, Sennheiser MD 421, 441, Beyer M88, Shure SM 57. Soundcraft mixers (Mackies in some cases), good cable. Shure KSM series, some Audio Technica 40 series mics. These are inexpensive stuff that will still have a lot of use well into the game even when you get more gear.
Steve (Ozraves at mojopie.com) has a lot of very sage advice about building a mic closet and purchasing quality-inexpensive gear. There's no reason why someone should have to sell stuff as they improve if they would just follow the good advice up front.
E
Englebert
New member
Rev E said:
Well said. But the word "afford" can have many meanings. A pro recordist can "afford" more than an amateur because he´s willing to put more cash on the line. For him it´s an investment that is going to pay itself back. But an amateur is in a different position. Although he might possess the money to buy something expensive, he may choose not to do it. Maybe he has other priorities or he just doesn´t feel comfortable spending all that cash on a hobby. It´s his decision and nobody else has a right to question it.
I feel too many amateur recordists are spending too much time dreaming about stuff they can not afford. They are thinking: "I´ll save x amount of money every month and in two years I can buy this mic and that pre. And then I´ll really start recording." I say, start recording as fast as you can. You have nothing to lose. If you can make good recordings with crappy gear, think what you can some day achieve with all that high end stuff...
Again, I´m not saying that high quality gear isn´t worth the money. But I think it´s better to record with a portable cassette recorder (with internal mics) than not record at all.
R
Rocket Boy
New member
heh, imagine how great it'll be when i can afford "pro" gear :-D if im getting by not to bad with the cheap stuff 
M
manning1
Banned
englebert
englebert said - "Save money for 50 years, get a Stradivarius and then you can start practicing"
wish i had thought of that englebert. thats the best
quote ive heard in years.
let me throw this out ....this idea....i think you need a certain level
but you dont need to go overboard. what you might find interesting is since i posted my songs at soundclick.com/bmanning which use both expensive and inexpensive diy preamps, no-ones dared to outright
tell me what each song used. also since ive set up this site
ive been offered 3 "label deals" , 2 ive turned down and one ive just signed. we all know the music business is a rough business.
it has major problems. ages ago when i owned a commercial
studio was the time for major outlays. now its different.
in my situation due to having to help dying family elders i ended up selling a pretty good high end studio. but in some strange way the good lord pushed me to the PC daw , and i would say i
can get pretty good results compared to my old studio.
englebert said - "Save money for 50 years, get a Stradivarius and then you can start practicing"
wish i had thought of that englebert. thats the best
quote ive heard in years.
let me throw this out ....this idea....i think you need a certain level
but you dont need to go overboard. what you might find interesting is since i posted my songs at soundclick.com/bmanning which use both expensive and inexpensive diy preamps, no-ones dared to outright
tell me what each song used. also since ive set up this site
ive been offered 3 "label deals" , 2 ive turned down and one ive just signed. we all know the music business is a rough business.
it has major problems. ages ago when i owned a commercial
studio was the time for major outlays. now its different.
in my situation due to having to help dying family elders i ended up selling a pretty good high end studio. but in some strange way the good lord pushed me to the PC daw , and i would say i
can get pretty good results compared to my old studio.
R
robjh22
New member
billisa said:
But Bill, I've tried everything, and I still sound just awful. What could it be???
DON'T ANSWER THAT!
R
Rev E
New member
Englebert said:
Let me put it this way: 2 SM 57s are about $165 new and perhaps $100-110 used. Two of these mics (even new) are a much better investment than a "Nady" power pack for $199 (same money, maybe less stuff but here less is more). $130 for a DMP3 (money well spent). A used Soundcraft mixer (also money well spent, compared to the same money for a new 12 or 20 channel Behringer board that you're going to want to give away later.
All I'm saying is that there IS inexpensive gear that is "affordable" that would make far better "investments" than a whole lot of cheap stuff. Read Steve's (Ozrave's) article on building a mic locker. It's not about spending out your ear, it's about buying decent inexpensive stuff up front so that you simply buy more as time goes buy rather than selling cheap junk to buy what you should have bought from jump.
E
Englebert
New member
Rev E said:
I agree. This forum is full of really good and solid advice about getting good bang for the buck. I just don´t think "buy stuff" should be a universal solution to all problems. A lot of people here already have more than decent setups; setups that should give them quite good (if not professional) results. If they are not getting them, I wouldn´t blame the gear.
I remember when I started recording with my first 4-track. Soon after my bandmate got himself one too. He was from a wealthier family, so everything he bought was better than mine: I had the cheapest Fostex, he had a near-top-of-the-line Tascam (with great integrated mixer and stuff), I had some cheap plastic mic, he had a SM57.
One day he said to me: "that 57 really sucks on vocals, it has no top end. I guess I have to buy one of them expensive condensers." I thought:"Wow, this guy must be really good when even real Shure isn´t good enough for him. He must have golden ears!" Mind you, I hadn´t heard any of his recordings by then.
Few days later he invites me to his home to play bass on one of his songs. I go there, I play the bass and then he starts to track vocals... he was practically eating the mic
! No wonder he had no top end - or to be precise, he had way too much bass. Now I didn´t know anything about proximity effect or other fancy words, but I had learned by experimentation that you got less bass when you were farther from the mic. I suggested he´d try backing off 10 cm or so and he said:" No way, you´re supposed to sing like this!" and proceeded to turn the treble on his track EQ all the way up.
I´m not sure if that story was relevant. I just wanted to tell it
C
chessrock
Banned
Englebert said:
I really don't think the problem with this is in the answers people are given.
Rather, the problem lies in the questions people are asking.
Good example: We just had some newb ask if a B1 was going to help him record his/her next big smash hit of the century debut CD. I mean, honestly, what are you going to tell someone like this?
Could it be done, sure. I mean, it's only rap, right? lol. (just a joke, guys) When I see posts like that, I'm going to recommend really expensive stuff. Why? I figure that's one more bargain I might be able to snag off ebay in a few months or so. Besides, most of them get all huffy when you tell it to them like it is, because they don't want to actually have to work and learn something. They just want us to point them to the magical piece of gear that's going to sound like a zillion-dollar record right out of the box. See: Hottsauce for an illustration.
Guys like you who are actually realistic are kind of few & far between. Instead of asking "what do I need to be the next Quincy Jones or Mutt Lange?," why not ask "What do I need to get decent recordings on a budget?"
Then you might find BBS's like this one to be a lot more helpful.
M
manning1
Banned
chessrock
chess - i play chess a LOT ! love the game. ive read a l;ot of your
posts and think you have very sane ideas. dont you think buying studio gear is a bit like playing chess ? if you dive right into chess
you can get burned , but if you really think your moves out carefully you can at least draw against a good opponent.
mic positioning is where i think so many newbies fall down.
you are correct , everyone wants the magic box that gives them that magic hit. now compare to when hits were done with mono machines. it really makes me admire the old master recording engineers and what they achieved. I think we have too much today. maybe a point to ponder is maybe when you have less it forces you to achieve more. maybe people are spending too much time today on chasing new equipment instead of figuring out
new ways to use what they already have.
regards
bm
chess - i play chess a LOT ! love the game. ive read a l;ot of your
posts and think you have very sane ideas. dont you think buying studio gear is a bit like playing chess ? if you dive right into chess
you can get burned , but if you really think your moves out carefully you can at least draw against a good opponent.
mic positioning is where i think so many newbies fall down.
you are correct , everyone wants the magic box that gives them that magic hit. now compare to when hits were done with mono machines. it really makes me admire the old master recording engineers and what they achieved. I think we have too much today. maybe a point to ponder is maybe when you have less it forces you to achieve more. maybe people are spending too much time today on chasing new equipment instead of figuring out
new ways to use what they already have.
regards
bm
C
chessrock
Banned
Actually, my name was derived from a character on the movie "Boogie Nights."
I think I totally lunched on it, though, because the dude's name might have been "Chest Rockwell" with a T. I don't even remember, but anyway, I guess there's a rapper with that name, too. So I don't think anyone could have any lamer of a username than myself.
I just thought that was a pretty classic movie line when Burt Reynolds goes "Like the name."
I think I totally lunched on it, though, because the dude's name might have been "Chest Rockwell" with a T. I don't even remember, but anyway, I guess there's a rapper with that name, too. So I don't think anyone could have any lamer of a username than myself.
I just thought that was a pretty classic movie line when Burt Reynolds goes "Like the name."
E
Englebert
New member
chessrock said:
You´re right. Although it sounded like it, I did not want to critisize (or is it critizise? The former got ten times more Google hits than the other so...
) all of you who take the time to help others with your genuinely useful advice. The problem lies more in the "spirit of times".There are many reasons for this gear obsession:
-GAS; shopping for new toys is fun!
-The need to make a "pro" impression; this reflects also in here and other BBS´s. People with maybe not-so-much-knowledge are keen to casually throw names like Neve, Manley, D.W.Fearn etc.
-Denial; I don´t suck. It´s my gear that sucks.
Mind you, recordists are not the only ones guilty of this. We all know those "musicians" with enormous piles of expensive gear and zero talent...
Of course, not everybody sees this materialistic way of life as a negative thing. Take gearslutz.com: even the name implies that they are proud of the fact that they are obsessed with gear. But I can´t bring myself to admire people for what they own. Anyone can buy a U47, it´s just a matter of choice. But to be able to do something great with it...