Some advice please...getting my first open reel recorder.

[fred s.]

I am looking to upgrade from my Tascam 424mkiii which I'm pretty happy with actually, when used at high speed and with quality cassettes...to an analog recorder that has more than 4 tracks.

I don't need anything super fancy, just something that i can make good sounding home recordings...like high quality demos. I know I prefer the sound of tape to didgital so I'd rather just upgrade my Tascam, rather than going all computer.

I've been told that a 1/4" 8-track would do the trick...but I really don't have any experience with open reel recorders and am not really sure what to look for, and what to avoid. Any advice on specific models would be appreciated.

I have a few extra questions (sorry if these are stupid)

Can i still use my tascam 424's mixer? (I have an external phantom power supply already with it). I do need to record 4 separate tracks at once sometimes, so I'm not sure how that would work with this mixer.

Will i lose audio quality if i transfer recordings onto my computer from tape for final mixing? I have an interface with RCA ins/outs that connects to the computer through USB made by Edirol, and recently got N-track for editing.

I should mention my budget is around $500.

 

[jpmorris]

I've been told that a 1/4" 8-track would do the trick...but I really don't have any experience with open reel recorders and am not really sure what to look for, and what to avoid. Any advice on specific models would be appreciated.

Okay. Only Fostex and Tascam made 1/4" 8-track machines, and there are four flavours of Fostex, in production order:
* A-8
* Model 80
* E8
* R8

The only machine I'd give a wide berth is the A-8, which is extremely old and will probably require a lot of servicing. I have a semi-working one, I'm not entirely sure it's worth the cost of getting it services, myself. Fostex didn't exactly build things to last, they have a bit of a reputation for cheap-and-tacky, like the R8 not having any internal screws as a cost-cutting measure
The A8 is also logic controlled, whereas the later machines are microprocessor-based and will have a smoother transport.

I'd also think carefully about the E-8. It's not a bad unit, but it is the only machine in existence to use 10.5 spools on 1/4" 8-track. Therefore, if it does die, you'll have a problem as they are like hen's teeth. I guess you could at a pinch use a 2-track 1/4" machine to edit the reels so they can be spooled onto two 7" reels instead, or make sure you only ever use 7" spools on the machine. That way you could get an R8 or M80 to play back the tapes if the worst happens.

Tascam made the 388, which is like a giant portastudio. A mixing desk with an 8-track machine built into it. They are quite highly regarded here, but I've never tried one. They can only take 7" spools, and run at 7.5ips with DBX noise reduction.
The Fostexes run at 15ips and have Dolby C NR.

The next step up is 1/2" 8-track, which I use. I have a Tascam TSR-8 which I am rather fond of. It runs at 15ips and has DBX noise reduction built in. Other machines in this format are the Tascam 80, which is even older than the A8, but seems to have aged better, or the '38 which is in some ways superior to the TSR, having three heads instead of only two.
Apart from that there's the Otari 5050-8 (three models) and after that we start getting into obscure stuff like the ITAM machines.

Can i still use my tascam 424's mixer? (I have an external phantom power supply already with it). I do need to record 4 separate tracks at once sometimes, so I'm not sure how that would work with this mixer.

I don't know.

Will i lose audio quality if i transfer recordings onto my computer from tape for final mixing? I have an interface with RCA ins/outs that connects to the computer through USB made by Edirol, and recently got N-track for editing.

I don't think you'll lose it noticeably. I prefer to mix everything onto tape myself, since it's less likely to skip than the computer, and if the computer does skip I can simply play the 2-track tape again rather than having to mix it all down several times. But it's up to you - both methods of working are equally valid.

 

[A Reel Person]

Sounds like a job for the 388!

an 8x8 mixer & 1/4" 8-track Portastudio-format recorder.

If u like the 424mkIII, you'll love the 388.

The Fostex 1/4" 8-track format is decent, but all these units require an external mixer.

My vote would be for the 388, based on features and sound quality, which is fine. 7" reels of 1/4" tape is an inexpensive format & is fun all around.

The 388 running @ 7.5 ips w/dbx would sound fuller than the Fostex 15 ips/Dolby-C format, which would sound brighter. However, for my money, I believe the (Tascam NR) dbx does a better job at eliminating hiss than the (Fostex NR) Dolby-C. That is a somewhat subjective matter. What's more clear is that the 388's mixer is topnotch & the 388 is alone in it's class.

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[A Reel Person]

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[A Reel Person]

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[SteveMac]

The only machine I'd give a wide berth is the A-8, which is extremely old and will probably require a lot of servicing. I have a semi-working one, I'm not entirely sure it's worth the cost of getting it services, myself. Fostex didn't exactly build things to last, they have a bit of a reputation for cheap-and-tacky, like the R8 not having any internal screws as a cost-cutting measure
The A8 is also logic controlled, whereas the later machines are microprocessor-based and will have a smoother transport.




.

What is "logic controlled". I have an A8 too, I used it for about 3 months and then began to notice some speed fluctuation. Its barely noticable and sometimes its seems fine but I don't know. Motor maybe? It was pretty decent sounding and when I look at it I always think it's too bad.

 

[jpmorris]

Will i lose audio quality if i transfer recordings onto my computer from tape for final mixing? I have an interface with RCA ins/outs that connects to the computer through USB made by Edirol, and recently got N-track for editing.

One point I forgot to mention: You're talking about digitizing with a 2-channel soundcard, aren't you? That's not generally a good idea since the tracks will drift out of sync as the machine will never play back twice at exactly the same speed. You may find you have to do some fancy footwork in N-track to get the tracks to line up again, but it will depend on the length of the song and how stable the machine (and soundcard) are.

Ideally you'd want to get an 8-input soundcard and digitize them all at once, but it will probably cost the same as the recorder. That reminds me : I must get one of those cards myself so I can take safety copies of my master tapes.

 

[fred s.]

woah...looks like a fine machine!

an 8x8 mixer & 1/4" 8-track Portastudio-format recorder.

If u like the 424mkIII, you'll love the 388.

The Fostex 1/4" 8-track format is decent, but all these units require an external mixer.

My vote would be for the 388, based on features and sound quality, which is fine. 7" reels of 1/4" tape is an inexpensive format & is fun all around.

The 388 running @ 7.5 ips w/dbx would sound fuller than the Fostex 15 ips/Dolby-C format, which would sound brighter. However, for my money, I believe the (Tascam NR) dbx does a better job at eliminating hiss than the (Fostex NR) Dolby-C. That is a somewhat subjective matter. What's more clear is that the 388's mixer is topnotch & the 388 is alone in it's class.

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[fred s.]

Did Tascam make any other 1/4" recorders? i have to admit, I do have a preference towrds Tascam.

 

[SteveMac]

Yeah, if I were looking for a 8 track 1/4" I'd go with the 388. Theres a nice one on ebay right now. It's up to about $250

 

[jpmorris]

Did Tascam make any other 1/4" recorders? i have to admit, I do have a preference towrds Tascam.

Only the 4-track and 2-track machines. They are like counting grains of sand.
The most common ones seem to be the 32 and 34 (2 and 4-track respectively), and the last model was the BR-20, a 2-track machine.

Note that although the BR20 is only gone for 18 months, the capstan motor and certain other important components are already discontinued by the looks of things. So much for Tascam's legendary part availability.
I'd be fascinated to hear how they handle extended warranties:
Cust: My BR-20 has died. Can you replace the capstan motor?
Teac: No. We don't have any of those.
Cust: What?!? It is still under warranty!
Teac: How about this nice hard disk recorder?
Cust: Can it play 1/4" tapes?
Teac: Um, no.
Cust: Well it's hardly an adequate replacement then, is it?

What is "logic controlled". I have an A8 too, I used it for about 3 months and then began to notice some speed fluctuation. Its barely noticable and sometimes its seems fine but I don't know. Motor maybe? It was pretty decent sounding and when I look at it I always think it's too bad.

On mine the power supply board went funny which caused the capstan to slow down sometimes. I took the board out partly to take voltage readings, and after that it started working again. Something may have come unseated during its journey

By logic-controlled, I mean controlled by CMOS or TTL logic gates, although the same kind of mechanism could be implemented with transistors, valves or relays. But generally such a mechanism has only a basic concept of the system state, it's either stopped or playing, or in rewind etc.
With a software-controlled system, it also has the tape position, tape speed from the tachometer and other information, like how long it has been in that particular mode.

In practice the difference is as follows -imagine we put both machines into zero-return mode.
The A8 it starts winding, and keeps accelerating. When the counter reaches zero, it suddenly goes BANG and stops the tape.
On the TSR-8, and most likely the newer Fostexes, it slowly starts winding and gradually accelerates until it reaches about mid-way. As it starts to approach zero it starts to slow down again so that it gently comes to a halt at the zero point.

 

[fred s.]

Good point. Yeah I was basically thinking of mixing down from analog into the computer (all falling on 2 tracks) the doing finals edits on n-track. But you are right, an 8-input would be MUCH better...

One point I forgot to mention: You're talking about digitizing with a 2-channel soundcard, aren't you? That's not generally a good idea since the tracks will drift out of sync as the machine will never play back twice at exactly the same speed. You may find you have to do some fancy footwork in N-track to get the tracks to line up again, but it will depend on the length of the song and how stable the machine (and soundcard) are.

Ideally you'd want to get an 8-input soundcard and digitize them all at once, but it will probably cost the same as the recorder. That reminds me : I must get one of those cards myself so I can take safety copies of my master tapes.

 

[jpmorris]

Good point. Yeah I was basically thinking of mixing down from analog into the computer (all falling on 2 tracks) the doing finals edits on n-track. But you are right, an 8-input would be MUCH better...

Yeah, that would work, assuming the soundcard doesn't drop something or Windows decides to go off and do something else. Often I do this myself for test mixes.

 

[Bill Furnett]

Every time i see a 388 i want to hug the picture.
It's like analog pornography!

Hey Dave you still have that M-500?

-Hot!-

 

[fred s.]

Thanks for all the info so far guys. That 388 seems very nice, and I'm keeping my eye on the one that is currently on ebay. The only concerns I have are weight, space, and shipping costs on that one. I might from time to time have to record in a rehearsal studio with my band...and move the recorder from my house.

So I think those fostex recorders might be more practical for my needs.

 

[antispatula]

I would stay away from using your porta-mixer. If you can, get a mackie cr1604, you can pick one up for a little under 200 on ebay, and they work great!

Or you can get, as many have said, a 388 may be a good choice. It seems to be an excellent recorder-mixer. Kind of like a primitive SIAB (studio in a box). The fostex r8 is great too, I used to own one. It has built in noise reduction which is nice.

With 500 if you're lucky you can get a 8 track wit 1/2" tape. I've got an Otari MX5050 that sounds spectacular, or you could go with a tascam 1/2" 8 track, like 38 or something.

 

[jpmorris]

I might from time to time have to record in a rehearsal studio with my band...and move the recorder from my house.
So I think those fostex recorders might be more practical for my needs.

In that case be careful with the R8. I haven't personally confirmed this, but it is said that the internal components are not screwed in but held together with clips that come undone if the recorder is moved too violently. It does have a carrying-handle though.

I don't know what kind of music you're likely to record, but here's another point to bear in mind. If you intend to use sequencers or some other system that requires synchronisation, you'll need to get a timecode reader/generator.
If you do this, you'll need to record the timecode on track 8. But beware: on my A8 at least, the timecode on track 8 bleeds onto track 7. You also can't record anything on track 7 that needs the timecode because track 7 will swamp track 8 during the recording. You may end up with 6 tracks instead of 8.

The 1/2" machines don't have this problem as the tracks and guard bands are wider.

 

[fred s.]

Mostly recording my own acoustic songer writter type songs, and then more expeimental rock things with my band. I don't use any sequencecers...from time to time though I will use a drum machine though instead of live drums. that will be fine, right?

In that case be careful with the R8. I haven't personally confirmed this, but it is said that the internal components are not screwed in but held together with clips that come undone if the recorder is moved too violently. It does have a carrying-handle though.

I don't know what kind of music you're likely to record, but here's another point to bear in mind. If you intend to use sequencers or some other system that requires synchronisation, you'll need to get a timecode reader/generator.
If you do this, you'll need to record the timecode on track 8. But beware: on my A8 at least, the timecode on track 8 bleeds onto track 7. You also can't record anything on track 7 that needs the timecode because track 7 will swamp track 8 during the recording. You may end up with 6 tracks instead of 8.

The 1/2" machines don't have this problem as the tracks and guard bands are wider.

 

[jpmorris]

Mostly recording my own acoustic songer writter type songs, and then more expeimental rock things with my band. I don't use any sequencecers...from time to time though I will use a drum machine though instead of live drums. that will be fine, right?

Yes, you only need a timecode if you want to lock the two together and have the drum machine controlled by the tape deck.

 

[antispatula]

In that case be careful with the R8. I haven't personally confirmed this, but it is said that the internal components are not screwed in but held together with clips that come undone if the recorder is moved too violently. It does have a carrying-handle though.

I've heard that too. I've taken off the face before though, and they were all bolted down very nicely with long screws, but that's as far as I went.

One thing about my r8 is one of the gears that linked the left hub to the motor broke, and I had to superglue it to make it work decently! So if FF or REW stops working well, try taking of the faceplate and take a look at the gears. Don't know if this was a common 8r problem, but just in case.