Soffit Mount Mains Design

  • Thread starter Thread starter RICK FITZPATRICK
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RICK FITZPATRICK

RICK FITZPATRICK

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Hello everyone. I have started my final control room/studio design, and immediatly ran into a soffit monitor question. In order to design the front control room wall, window, soffit geometry and airspace between this wall and the adjacent studio wall, I must determine overall dimensions of the soffit mounted main monitors. My prime criteria for these monitors, is bang for the buck. After reading barefoots nearfield kit links, I got to thinking, since I am a detailer for an architectural mill, and have access to CNC
machining, and MDF up to 3" thick,(which may be of no use in this application) etc, why
I couldn't build these myself, IF high quality components and design specifications are available. I am NOT familiar with MAIN monitor design by any means, but I am a prolific builder and cad draftsman, and figure if I can obtain plans for such an animal, I would like to build them myself. First criteria is money. I am no Bill Gates, so the thought of purchasing High End moniitors is out of the question. This IS a home studio, and have no idea what to allow in my budget this aspect of the project. Naturally, I would like to end up with something that will indeed perform at some simulance of studio monitoring criteria, but Genelec level is beyond my financial ability:eek:
If anyone can provide some info or links regarding components and or plans, I would be thrilled. But if this is an area of DIY that has not been explored or requires special proprietary components that there are no sources for, I will re-evaluate this. BTW, I HAVE done a search on the forum and the net, but to no real success. Thanks
fitz:)
 
Fitz,

I looked into the same thing for awhile without much success. As I'm sure you've found, most DIY speaker kits top out at sub-main monitor levels.

About all I could suggest is maybe kick a little money over to Barefoot and have him design some for you, if he's still in the game.

The trickiest part will be in the crossover design which is no slam dunk. Without meticulous care in this area those expensive drivers could end up sounding pretty awful.

I'll be watching this thread as the Genelecs are well outside my budget as well.

Alex
 
Hello Alex, thanks a mill for the quick response. Your opinion was what I suspected. Its probably one of those things that require so much research and tests, that the companys that have done it, naturally, include this into the pricing. And since were not talking consumer gear, I would suspect also, that the supply demand equasion reflects this pricing also. I would consider what you suggested, but my first impression is that it still is a throwback to the research/test criteria. But I'm open to ideas. Ok, I'll try it.

If you read this barefoot, would you be so kind as to address this? And if this is an alternatve you would be interested in, please email me at cadesignr@rcsis.com or if you feel comfortable responding here, that would be fine. I'm sure there would be many people here interested in this. Again though, if this is one of those ideas that would be best put on the idea bonfire, I'll do it. Its entirely understandable. Thanks
fitz:)
 
Thanks Eric, I looked but didn't find the actuall plan link. But I was in a hurry. Trying to get a #$%^*^%&(*$@$R electric stove hooked up befor the real estate people come. :eek:
fitz
 
Fitz

The plan isn't linked to it and I haven't been able to find it. It just referrs to the article. If you find it let me know.

How much critical listening is done on the big speakers any ways? I heard many engineers say that the big ones are just for the clients and most of the time they are using their nearfields.

Would a standard speaker design work for this purpose?

Thanks,

Eric
 
Hello John, thankyou. I will thoroughly study these. Your perspective is fantastic. I'm still trying to figure out the autocad delima. No time for Smartdraw right now. But I'll get it down sooner or later. I also am thinking about upgrading to a architectural rendering program. Which one is beyond me right now, but I need the newer type programs for my professional work also. Like Solidworks, But thats another demima. My heart says a set of Genelecs, my needs says the drawing program!:rolleyes: Thats why I would like to find plans and components for a decent DIY soffit monitor. they don't have to equal high end stuff. I used to own a set of Altec Lansing A19's, which were "consumer" versions of thier studio monitors. I don't know if that was just "hype"
or not. But they sure sounded great to me at the time. Wouldn't even mind building a set of these, but I don't know if they would be appropriate for soffit mounting. Maybe thier considered dogshit by todays standards, but I used them for my home PA during practices. They were fantastic..... even ran bass through the board. OK. enough. Thanks again John. And thankyou gents. Lets see, ah, question #40,137 coming up!
fitz:D :D
 
Hi Eric, In the last few days I've read so many articles and opinions on this subject I'm sick of it.:rolleyes:(Just kiddin!!)But just like digital and analog, there are both camps, and thier firmly entrenched! One opinion from a highly respected long time engineer says he only monitors on a pair of RADIO SHACK something or other monitors, and had for 10 yrs. Another shows SIM analysis of nearfield anomolies from reflections off the console and shelf, shows a better way of using them by stands, and suggests soffit mains are REALLY the only way to monitor. Having never been exposed to midfields leave me without an opinion. Maybe thats why I would like to have them.:D I do trust what I read here though. Its not having heard the difference myself that is the problem.
Eric, what do you mean by "standard speakers? Nearfields, or some other type of soffit mounted spkrs? Please bear with my education on this stuff Eric. I've been using absolute ZERO'S for 3 years, and from what I've also read, you have to get used to a set of monitors, and use them in different rooms, to learn to trust what your hearing. I would really like to have soffit mounts, but if this is one of those items only the more affluent stuios can afford, then so be it. I will search some more before I give up though. In the meantime, I would like to purchase a pair of Event powered nearfields. But then this brings up the next pandoras box.:eek: Some of the articles went on to explain that the ROOM should be designed for nearfield monitoring which really leaves me in the dark.:confused: I haven't got a clue to what they are refering to, unless it has to do with the response of the nearfields, and what a misguided room design can do to that response. But, I'll keep plugging away at the questions....now, lets see, oh yea, question @40854 comin up!:D Thanks a meg Eric.
fitz:confused: :D :)
 
Hey Fitz,
What I meant by "standard", was like all of thespeaker building articles and books that have been written for the person who wants to build their own. There are kits out there for "studio quality" monitors, but you never know what their definition of "studio quality" is. I've build speakers befor that sounded good, but I wouldn't compare them to my JBL nearfields for accuracy, but I do check my mixes on them.

I think the way to design your room is to design it for the mains. The point of nearfields is to take the room out of the equation, so I cant imagine a well designed room taking out the usefullness of your nearfields.

I'm going through the same thing your are, trying to decide where to put my money. I've bugeted about $3000 for my monitors, and I'd like to get a pair that I can soffit mount and a pair of quality nearfields to replace my JBL's. i don't know if this is possible.

I'm still waiting for one of our resident geniuses to give us all the midfield design for all of us to make and save us all these problems :)

Eric
 
Eric Best said:
I'm going through the same thing your are, trying to decide where to put my money. I've bugeted about $3000 for my monitors, and I'd like to get a pair that I can soffit mount and a pair of quality nearfields to replace my JBL's. i don't know if this is possible.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm.... I just got a very bright idea... a single system that would give both nearfield and soffit mounted midfield responses! It wouldn't be quite as simple as the flick of a switch, but almost. You'd also have to get up and basically open some cabinet doors to make the change. And the studio design would have to be thought out in advance. Yeah, it would work!

It would have to be an active biamped system to allow the required crossover changes. Could easily be done for under $3,000 though. :cool:

barefoot
 
hey Rick those Altec Lansing A19's would be mighty fine!! I had the updated version of them in the UREI 813s. The beauty of them was the dual concentric horn that gave a single point source for the speaker - great imaging.

While we were waiting for the Genelecs to arrive I put the Events in the soffit mounts to try them out - they sounded very good in that situ.

cheers
John
 
Have to disagree with you on that one John.

I might get slammed for saying this, and maybe in their day they were something special, but relative to today's common designs the UREIs are not much more than glorified PA speakers

The problems with those concentric horn loaded compression driver, large woofer designs are too numerous to mention. There is however a new generation of concentric drivers emerging that might prove different. The jury is still out, but I'm interested.

barefoot
 
Hi everyone, did Urei buy out Altec or something. I don't understand what you mean John.
hey Rick those Altec Lansing A19's would be mighty fine!! I had the updated version of them in the UREI 813s.
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Was that UREI buy Altec, or just redesign them? All I know is they sounded great to me at the time. Of course, I had nothing to compare them to. And I probably wouldn't know the difference if I heard it: I'm 90% musician, 10% studio geek!:D
Well, its all academic now anyway. I was going to pre design for my "future studio" when I sold my house and moved. Its not going to happen now. Soooooo....back to my bedroom studio reality.:rolleyes: But this is for fun. And thats what I have. Let the good times roll............:D Although there is something bothering me.... barefoot explained about the psyco acoustic phenomena about hearing low frequency small spaces, and the fundimental is really not there. If the mic picks up what IS there, doesn't the listener of a recording in a similar room undergo the same phenomena? Just curious. Oh, wait, it just dawned on me. The bass is direct. Duh!:o
fitz:D
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
.... barefoot explained about the psyco acoustic phenomena about hearing low frequency small spaces, and the fundimental is really not there.....
Click to expand...
No, if you go back and read my posts on this subject you'll see that I said very low frequency sound pressure levels are greatly enhanced in small rooms - in reality, not just perception.

The "missing fundamental" effect is a real psychoacoustic phenomenon, but it has nothing to due with deep bass response in small rooms.

barefoot
 
not just the fundimental, my brain is missing!

Mr. Barefoot, please excuse my misguided attempt to quote you. It won't happen again. I don't understand yet. The accuracy issue is a bigger quandary than my pea brain can unravel. Accuracy compared to what? The signal at the mixer inputs? IF 5 people listen to the same recording in 5 different rooms, they hear 5 different versions of the same thing anyway. Is that not correct? And if it is, then if the control room or mics, or speakers, or studio standing wave or phasing issues, or a hundred other things affect the final listener, and they like it, who cares? That is not meant sarcasticly at all, as I respect what you have to say. I have come to the conclusion though, after reading all the opinions on midfields vs nearfields, that no one agrees on anything. Even the pro engineers. I'm sure you are scientificly correct. I'm not so sure of the relevance anymore. A recording is still a second rate attempt at capturing a real sound, and then trying to reproduce that sound in a million different environments. Who will say "I was in that studio when it was recorded and it doesn't sound the same here?" Maybe I'm missing something. I do know this. When I listen to a recording from a real studio, in MY living room, my room can't possibly reproduce what the recording has on it, unless the size issue doesn't affect playback at home. And even if it does, I don't know if its accurate or not. I only hear whats coming out of my speakers, and usually, I'm more cognizant of the music, not the recording. With no other reference at the time, whos to say its "accurate"? If you feel like explaining further, I am all ears. I love to learn. And you are the best at it sir. I on the otherhand am just a musician who misquotes, and then asks for forgiveness. :D
fitz::) :) :D
 
Fitz,

Yeah, this is an argument one can always make. 'Most people don't have anything close to studio level gear, so why bother with accuracy?'

Well personally I think, and from what I gather most professional recording engineers agree, it's best to hear what's being recorded and mixed as accurately as possible. You leave fewer things up to chance and you're less likely to make technical blunders. Of course, many decisions in recording are a matter of taste, but you need to hear things clearly and accurately in order to make deliberate, repeatable choices.

And I guess it also has a little to do with the satisfaction of knowing that you're hearing your work in the best possible light, regardless of what others might eventually NOT hear.

barefoot
 
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