So.... You Think You Own a "Vintage Guitar", eh?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Buck62
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Interesting subject...and one,I'm sure, will become very important as time goes by.There are a finite number of 'vintage' guitars.....obviously.They make new guitar collectors everyday.

I've personally owned four 'L' series Strats,a 1959 Les Paul Jr.,a 1961LesPaul Special(SG Style) with traps on the neck a vibrola tailpiece and P-90's--ie.Totally custom ordered.A 1961 J-Bass,1965 P-bass,1962 P-bass,1961 Tele,1964 Tele,1965 Tele,1969 Tele.!960 D18 Martin,1964 Gibson EB-2,1968 Thunderbird,1968 Hagstrom 8-string bass,1973 Fretless P-bass,1970 Dan Armstrong Bass,1968 Ampeg AEB-1.....plus many others.

I wish I had been interested in 'collecting'.I just love instruments and was always trading them around and buying and selling when I needed the cash.

As far as 'fakes'....The parts are the hardest to indentify as you have to see the instrument dissassembled to accuratly assess the fakery.As far as feel and playability of the instrument, its pretty obvious when you pick up a real 'elderly' instrument.Its the way the finish has soaked into the wood, the dry feeling you get from the guitar(especially acoustics) and in the case of really old strats and teles, the cheapness.Theres one good thing to think about when comtemplating a 'mint' vintage instrument.Its MINT because it was a piece of crap to begin with and no one wanted to play it.The 'players' are the instruments to have.Crappy finishes,beat to death, probably sound incredible...or a good conditioned refin....theres where you find great instruments.
 
I KNOW that I have a 1966 strat.....cause I bought it in 1976, before the vintage trend was upon us. The price I paid was $150.

Down thru the years I have replaced a volume pot, installed various pickup sets, changed pickguards, refinished it 3 times, installed a 5-way switch, and had it professionally refretted.

Did I ruin the guitar?
Have I lowered the guitars vlaue?
My answer to both is "no"

I have played the guitar very hard for 27 years. Most of that time I have giged every fri and sat night...during some of that time I giged twice a month. So, it would be a consevative estimate to say that I averaged 4 gigs per month with the guitar since purchase. I would be safe to say that my averge take per gig was $50. (taking the good money and the "playing for peanuts" into account)

That is $200 per month for 27 years....a total of over $64,000 that I have made with that guitar....and thats a conservative estimate.

So, if I had of left it 100% original and put it in the closet for 27 years, it would be worth around $6,000 and I would have to sell the guitar to get the $6,000

By just playing the damn thing and replacing what needed to be replaced I have generated over $60,000 out of the guitar and I still have it.

I turned down an offer of $3,000 for the guitar just a few months ago....by the store that did the refret.

I never worried about "knocking collector value off the guitar", because I never for 1 second had any intention of selling it....its the best playing strat I have ever held in my hands, bar none.

As far as paying big money for a vintage guitar....no way, the brand new fenders are very good guitars and the TOP price I would pay for a vintage guitar is $400 (if I really liked the guitar)
 
I've been waiting for a thread like this. I have a 62 Strat that I bought in high school, some 30 years ago. Through the 70's and most of the 80's, it sat out in my apartment and I played it all the time. Everybody did. It was nice. As the value started to increase I began to keep it hidden away. Now, I no longer let people play it, much less see it. I might play it myself a couple of times a year, but I have other guitars that I enjoy. I've fallen into the Spinal Tap's "Don't look at it. Forget that it's even there." type of mentality.

I think it's a nice guitar, but I don't believe that it's 7 grand nice. For years, I've been trying to anticipate the peak because it would be a nice windfall - but that's been difficult. When Fender started making the '62 reissue, I figured it was over (I think the reissue plays/looks/sounds every bit as good as mine). But it wasn't, and I'm glad I held off. They just kept going up. Today, I see phone book-thick vintage guitar mags all over the place, and I think it's crazy. Fenders are factory made guitars. Maybe the old wood is better, but by that much? A new Parker, just for example, plays incredibly well, it has a variety of good tones, and it comes with a warrantee.

My question is this: Will the original guitars continue to appreciate, and how high can they go? It seems to me that high quality fakes could lower the value of the originals. Maybe Asia will flood the market with high quality fakes - and when it's too hard to tell people will lose interest. I remember back when the Ferrari market peaked way too high and then plummeted (I just read about it, no personal experience).

I think the vintage Fender guitar thing is going too far, and I think it has to come back to earth. But when? I don't believe that someday I'll need to get a safety deposit box big enough to store a guitar just because of it's 'old vibe' hype and not because of it's sound or playability. There's not enough 'there' there, if you know what I mean.

It's an excellent web site that you found, and I'm wondering if the writing is finally on the wall.
 
One of the best ways to tell whether an older Strat is real is to be sure that at least one of the parts has been replaced. They were built so cheap that something was bound to break.

One of the first things to go is the bridge saddles. They would strip out quite easily. The next would be the pick-up selector.

If you run into a well used Strat with "all original" parts, beware!!

My goal was to have a Strat from each decade that they were made. So I have a 1957, 1968, 1973, 1983, and a 1996. I also have one of the 1957 reissues because I like the way it plays. I still have to pick out one for the 2000's but frankly have not found one that really sounds as good as the older ones. I had to do a lot of work on the 1996 to get it up to speed.
 
SemiCrazy said:
I can describe it but If you have ever held a REAl 50's Strat it's like they have some mystical inner hammonic ressonance or Chi. The fake didn't have it.
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That's total baloney, IMO! Anybody that tries to get you to believe that is trying to sell you something...


... most likely a fake '57 strat!


A
www.aaroncheney.com
 
jimistone said:

That is $200 per month for 27 years....a total of over $64,000 that I have made with that guitar....and thats a conservative estimate.

So, if I had of left it 100% original and put it in the closet for 27 years, it would be worth around $6,000 and I would have to sell the guitar to get the $6,000

By just playing the damn thing and replacing what needed to be replaced I have generated over $60,000 out of the guitar and I still have it.
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That is brilliant! I've never heard it put that way before. Now I'll never think of it any other way.


A
www.aaroncheney.com
 
This may be the case with electric guitars, but you're pretty safe with Martin acoustics IMHO. Their serial numbers are very well documented, and there are other ways to check authenticity, such as fret and fingerboard wear, as well as truss rod type and tuners.
 
Aaron Cheney said:
That's total baloney, IMO!
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No, it's not. Guitars change with age, and there is nothing which can recreate that ageing. The woods become more homogenized, their moisture content becomes lower and more consistent, and lacquer continues to off gas for DECADES. The wood becomes stiffer. All of these things make a real difference in the way the guitar vibrates. It is kind of like the guitar becomes used to being a guitar. All you have to do to believe is play a brand new guitar immediately after it has been strung up for the first time, and then play it again 24 hours later. It is like you are playing a completely different guitar. Unfortunately, this is an experience which is very hard to get if you are not a builder yourself. "Vintage" guitars are probably not worth the prices people get, but there is a difference. In sound, because of age and design, and in playability because of design and having been played. Those old Fenders had the most extreme radius (7 1/2 inches, as opposed to the 16 inch radius on a Martin, or 12 inch on a Gibson) on the fingerboards you will ever see, and it is insanely comfortable. They fret out when you bend quite easily, but barre chords are down right easy. Very few builders, whether factory or individual, are building guitars with a 7 1/2 inch radius these days. Even Fender only uses that radius on reissues.

Now, I have played thousands of guitars. There is no question in my mind that the old guitars have a sound you can not recreate in a new guitar. Whether that sound is "better" or not is a matter of opinion, though most people like the old ones.

It is kind of like the whole Stradivarius thing. Every year you hear about some violin luthier or scientist or some such person saying they have figured out the secret to the "Strad" sound. And it NEVER works. Stradivarius was the best of the builders at his time (at least, that is the consensus opinion), but the reason his violins sound SO good is that they are 600 years old. No new violin can compete with that.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
All of these things make a real difference in the way the guitar vibrates. It is kind of like the guitar becomes used to being a guitar.

Light
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A firend of mine who is a professional luthier says it something like this.... (paraphrased)

"A guitar doesn't even know it's a guitar for the first several months. It still thinks that it's two or three trees that were un-naturally forced to coexist by glue and metal parts. Only after a few years of settling in, being played and "worked in" does the guitar finally realize it's a guitar."

I've had a couple of my guitars for over 20 years and I wholeheartedly agree with his statement. Their tone and playability have improved greatly with age. To me, that makes them priceless, because I'd never sell them. :)
 
Buck62 said:
A firend of mine who is a professional luthier says it something like this.... (paraphrased)

"A guitar doesn't even know it's a guitar for the first several months. It still thinks that it's two or three trees that were un-naturally forced to coexist by glue and metal parts. Only after a few years of settling in, being played and "worked in" does the guitar finally realize it's a guitar."

I've had a couple of my guitars for over 20 years and I wholeheartedly agree with his statement. Their tone and playability have improved greatly with age. To me, that makes them priceless, because I'd never sell them. :)
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It is also important to remember that guitars become matched to the performer, and also the player to the guitar. I have a friend whose playing is so forceful that, after he has played one of my guitars, I swear the guitar feels stiffer. And classical players are extremely aware of this. It can take a violinist years to become familiar with an instruments quirks. I have another friend whose violin was stolen from a gig. She was shattered. For her, it was almost as bad as losing one of her children, completely aside from the fact that it was a $200,000 instrument. She got another excellent instrument, but she is still not comfortable with it, years later. It is not just the instrument aging, but the instrument growing into the player.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light and Buck, you've hit it right on the head! Its unbelieveable that someone would make a statement to the effect that it is bunk in assessing an ancient instrument by simply holding it or playing it.As an owner of many elderly instruments, it is without a doubt THE ONLY WAY to really tell if its an old instrument or not...and is as Light has said....its the way wood with a finish ages. If you cannot tell then it is probably because you havent played an old Strat or an old Gibson,Epiphone,Guild,Martin,or the like.A 1969 Strat is not an 'Old' one.It is very much like the current build .Pre CBS is the correct age which includes the old ones as far as Fender goes.
I own a reissue right now.It is a first year Jap.The Fender company outsourced its neck construction and assembly to Japan.With it went the original pinrouters and machine tools as the factory here retooled.The problem became one of quality.The early Jap Fenders were light years above the crap they were turning out here at home.I have owned several 'L' series Strats.One 1962,two 1963's and a 1965.My reissue is a 62.It is as close to the originals as I have ever seen.I've owned it for over 20 years now and it is aging like an old one.

One other thing....It is always amazing to me that Leo got everything he patented absolutely correct right out of the box.Neck radius'....pickup positioning....wood type....the fact that the bolt on neck created a certain type of response and resonance....
 
cavedog101 said:

One other thing....It is always amazing to me that Leo got everything he patented absolutely correct right out of the box.Neck radius'....pickup positioning....wood type....the fact that the bolt on neck created a certain type of response and resonance....
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Well, I am preaty sure he went through a few prototypes first.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light.my friend...my statement was about the ones that made it to the patent office.....
 
cavedog101 said:
Light.my friend...my statement was about the ones that made it to the patent office.....
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Yeah, I know. I was just jabbing at you.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
As a matter of fact, Buck, I know that all my guitars are the genuine article.

My 1949 Les Paul Standard has the best maple top you've ever seen and real PAF pickups - it says so right on them.

My 1956 ES 335 is the best dot neck you've ever heard.

. . . and my 1952 Strat is 100% original - especially the Polaris White paint job.

. . . but seriously - there is a difference. Some vintage guitars were dogs - bow wow wow!! but some of them just have something different about them - and in the five years from 1988 to 1993 I bought, sold and traded a whole bunch of them - mostly to and from Gruhn's in Nashville - I played some great guitars. The ones I wanted to keep to play were great guitars so I'm pretty lucky that I have some exceptional ones.

Some people can tell the difference - some can't. If you can't then it doesn't matter - you're going to buy the re-issue or the Relic or whatever and that works fine. If you can, then you're going to want a real one, because you can tell it's a better guitar.

The store Light is talking about in MN is probably Willie's American Guitars - and I completely endorse his confidence in them. Many of the stores you go to the people who work there are hacks who have no knowledge of what they're selling. I went into a store looking for a 335 and the guy said he had a really nice one from 1963. It was hangin behind the counter and had gold hardware and split parallelogram inlays - a 345.

It would be like going into your local Chevy dealer and asking the guy in the striped tie and plaid jacket about a '64 ...(insert name of vintage car here).

I probably had over 1,000 guitars go through my hands and I only got taken once. It was a refinished Telecaster with all the original parts. The refin was easy to spot - but the body was a re-issue. Neck, pickups everything else was all genuine.

There's something about the way the paint fades, the hardware dulls and wears etc etc.

Once you've seen a lot, they become easy to spot.
 
foo said:
The store Light is talking about in MN is probably Willie's American Guitars - and I completely endorse his confidence in them.
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Yup. Good People over there.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I have an early 196o's Moserite bass. It is semi-hollow with two humbuckers. Maple top, walnut back. I need a couple of parts for it if anybody knows where I can find them.
 
Light said:
... their moisture content becomes lower and more consistent, and lacquer continues to off gas for DECADES.
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I had an uncle that did that.

But seriously, I understand the effect ageing has on a guitar. (And I really liked the analogy Buck62's luthier friend uses - I'll have to remember that!) However I cannot agree that every old strat is invested with some kind of "inner chi".

I've played great old strats, and I've played crappy old strats. Just being old is not the only factor in being a good guitar.

A
www.aaroncheney.com
 
Aaron Cheney said:


I've played great old strats, and I've played crappy old strats. Just being old is not the only factor in being a good guitar.
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So have I. But age will improve any well made guitar. It may not make it perfect, but it will help.


Toki987, I am afraid you are S.O.L. on that one, unless you can find another of the same model to canabilize.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
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