So why doesn't it sound the same as the CD ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter eceuk
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eceuk said:
I guess another way of getting the answer would be to ask: How do I record a piano piece to CD marketable quality: What processes/processors would you use. !!!! If nothing else please tell me I'm right about the "set-back" sound or put me out of my misery and tell me what it's really called.
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Eceuk,

All of these guys are just trying to give you a hard time, because no one really wants to give away their secrets. People are very protective of them, and if we just went around telling everyone the answers, then those of us who know the secrets would lose "our edge."

Ever hear the saying: "A good mechanic doesn't give away his tools" ?

Now I just so happen to have a special processor on hand that will do exactly what you're asking about. You know ... "setting" back, yet still maintaining an up-front immediacy. You just plug your keyboard in to it, and record. It's really that simple. Basically, I gutted the insides of an old distortion pedal and built this special gizmo from scratch. Because of all the time and effort I put in to it, I would have to charge several hundred dollars for it.

PM me if you're interested.

Chess
 
chessrock said:
Now I just so happen to have a special processor on hand that will do exactly what you're asking about. You know ... "setting" back, yet still maintaining an up-front immediacy. You just plug your keyboard in to it, and record. It's really that simple.
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I just wanted to second this. I picked up one of these boxes from chess a while back and it has dramatically changed the way I record. Everything is direct now. I've completely eliminated microphones from my studio and no longer have to worry about room acoustics. BTW, I believe he's having them manufactured now on a special boat in international waters to avoid pesky labor and trade regulations, all the while passing the savings on to you.
 
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chessrock said:
Eceuk,

All of these guys are just trying to give you a hard time, because no one really wants to give away their secrets. People are very protective of them, and if we just went around telling everyone the answers, then those of us who know the secrets would lose "our edge."

Ever hear the saying: "A good mechanic doesn't give away his tools" ?

Now I just so happen to have a special processor on hand that will do exactly what you're asking about. You know ... "setting" back, yet still maintaining an up-front immediacy. You just plug your keyboard in to it, and record. It's really that simple. Basically, I gutted the insides of an old distortion pedal and built this special gizmo from scratch. Because of all the time and effort I put in to it, I would have to charge several hundred dollars for it.

PM me if you're interested.

Chess
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Wow. This is exactly what I need in MY studio.

If it is also low in carbohydrates and trans-fatty oils, I will take three immediately.
 
chessrock said:
Eceuk,

All of these guys are just trying to give you a hard time, because no one really wants to give away their secrets. People are very protective of them, and if we just went around telling everyone the answers, then those of us who know the secrets would lose "our edge."

Ever hear the saying: "A good mechanic doesn't give away his tools" ?

Now I just so happen to have a special processor on hand that will do exactly what you're asking about. You know ... "setting" back, yet still maintaining an up-front immediacy. You just plug your keyboard in to it, and record. It's really that simple. Basically, I gutted the insides of an old distortion pedal and built this special gizmo from scratch. Because of all the time and effort I put in to it, I would have to charge several hundred dollars for it.

PM me if you're interested.

Chess
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Is this the one you added the creamy/milky switch to?
 
I read that the Chinese are now making a cheap copy of Chess' WonderBox. You can get it on-line for $79. The quality control is not the best, but they are working on it, and if you get a good build it's supposed to sound as good as WonderBoxes that cost three times as much.

G.
 
I've improved the design of the Chess' Wonderbox. I used some special advice from our one and only walters who took the time to explain DC Ofsets. I plan to start making DIY Kits soon. Why spend hundreds on a Wonderbox when you can build a clone and get a better sound.
 
The advice about starting with a piano is right on. Of course, you don't need to buy one, just rent one (and a studio) for a day or a few hours. So yes, the piano itself is the single most important piece of gear you need to get that sound.

Next comes the studio space, mic technique/placement, and later on any reverb and mixing that is done. That piano sound you are hearing could have been miked with more than two mics of course. There could have been four mics, two close and two far. Then the mixer can mix in as much of the room (far mics) as desired, using the natural reverb and distance of the room. Of course, this can be simulated with digital reverbs, but using the room itself can be great.

So for you, using a Fantom and a digital reverb presumably, you would add reverb to put the piano in a bigger space. There is an art to this as well, as far as early reflections, reverb time, amount of reverb, etc. The basic premise is that as you add reverb the source moves farther away.

This is just as it would be in nature. If you are in a big space and someone is right in front of you talking to you, you would hear them directly with very little interaction with the space. However, if they were to move far away from you and then yell, you would hear their voice direct, but you also hear much more of the space you are in, in the form of echoes and reverberation. So to simulate that distance, you add reverb.

There currently doesn't exist any electronic device that can properly simulate a piano. I'm a pianist, and I keep up on the latest synth/sampler/softsampler technology, and there is nothing out there that can hold up to scrutiny for solo work. The piano in the Fantom is good for a synth keyboard, but if you are comparing it to a fine acoustic grand piano that has been recorded in a nice studio, you will ultimately frustrate yourself.
 
SonicAlbert said:
There could have been four mics, two close and two far. Then the mixer can mix in as much of the room (far mics) as desired, using the natural reverb and distance of the room. Of course, this can be simulated with digital reverbs, but using the room itself can be great.
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Albert is right on with everything in his post, above and beyond what I quoted above. This is slightly off-topic, but I'd like to take the opportunity to amplify a detail referred to in the above section.

Leaving the quality of the room itself aside for just a second, there is another sometimes important difference between far-miking the piano and applying synthetic reverb to the close, and that has to do with getting the piano sound itself. An advantage to far-miking a piao - either as "room fill" to add behind the close mics, or sometimes if it's a good room and a good piano, far-miking alone - is that you are getting not only the room, but the whole piano sound and not just the sound as it exists in a couple of specific locations inside or next to the piano.

The general rule to this kind of far-miking is that you want to get outside of the "near field" of the instrument, with the near field being roughly defined as a distance equal to the total longest dimension of the instrument. In other words, if you have a piano that neasures 7 feet in total length, you want to get your far mic at least 7 feet away from the piano in order to capture the "overall" sound of the piano. (This general "near field" rule also applies to any other acoustic instruments, including acoustic guitar, saxaphone, etc.)

This "total sound" is something that can only be gotten from outside the near field of the instrument and can never be accurately be reproduced with close mixing techniques. This means that even if you use the best reverb on the planet to add "room" to close-miked tracks, it will still be just part of the piano that you are capturing and reverbing and not the whole thing.

Does this mean that you could always mic outside the near field? Of course not. There could be many reasons, including a crappy room, bleed from other instruments, or just the fact that you don't actually want that full piano sound (which is OK.) I'm just pointing out a real sonic difference other than just quality of reverb between using a room mic and using a synthetic reverb.

G.
 
Roasting newbies are we?

eceuk, as others have pointed out, there is no magic box that provides the sound you are after. It's a combination of many things but just a few pointers.

You need a really good DI from the synth to a top quality preamp and then to the soundcard. Traditionally synths record a little thin to audio so you might need to duplicate the track or even reamp it just to get a basic full quality audio track.

After you have the basic track there are so many possible alterations, as mentioned, reverb, compression, delays, or even distortion boxes, lots of stuff you can do.

At the end of the process, the music we hear today goes through a final mastering i.e. EQ and limiting phase which also can alter the sound.

You have to understand all of these tools along the sound chain because they can be used in a variety of combinations. There is no magic box, there are a lot of them, along with the skill of the operator which ultimately determines the sound you are hearing.
 
It's not about roasting a newbie. Read the whole thread, people tried to help. He didn't accept it. Now he's just getting the only thing he wanted to hear in the first place.
 
scrubs said:
I just wanted to second this. I picked up one of these boxes from chess a while back and it has dramatically changed the way I record. Everything is direct now. I've completely eliminated microphones from my studio and no longer have to worry about room acoustics. BTW, I believe he's having them manufactured now on a special boat in international waters to avoid pesky labor and trade regulations, all the while passing the savings on to you.
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i bought one but opened the hood and it was just a old MXR distortion box circuit.!! i think thats against the law.
It said MXR patent 100002220999- 1982 FakeDistortion Pedal!!

Personally, the units didn't work for me, they had a distortion sound on my clarinet.
FYI, to interested buyers..the units also don't say STUDIO ULTRA PRO on the front... so I highly doubt they are very good. No offense Chess, to each their own...but you need to do something about your labeling.

;)
 
First, thanks Albert, and Southdside Glen. You guys actually did what the guy was asking for, gave him advice. The guy didnt know any better, why? Because he is a newbie. He asked a question that could be considered dumb, and instead of leading him down the right path, many in here dogged for asking the question in the first place. If the newbie knew that there wasnt such a one box, do you think he wouldve asked the question in the first place? Listen Ive been many a forum and asked some of the dumbest questions, simply cause i didnt know any better. And therein lies the reason why i asked in the first place. Why was it so hard to simply say "hey, there isnt one simple box, its a technique using many different miking placements, a real piano, and complicated mastering and polishing techniques"? Could you imagine asking for direction to your local McDonalds and everyone snapping at you cause you didnt look in a map in the first place? I get mad at the kid that ask question that could simply be found in a manual as well, but sometimes, our brain farts, and we just dont know where to turn. Its called being human, and for the know-it-alls, and too-good-to-answerers, give it a try. I say this because you never know where your next bit of advice comes from, and how the people that give it will make you feel in your moment of need.
 
eceuk said:
OK lets just clear a few thing up.

"I'm from the USA we rule the world don't ya know" sort of attitude: doesn't help anybody..
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Helps me..............................
 
Shenanigans said:
First, thanks Albert, and Southdside Glen. You guys actually did what the guy was asking for, gave him advice. The guy didnt know any better, why? Because he is a newbie. He asked a question that could be considered dumb, and instead of leading him down the right path, many in here dogged for asking the question in the first place. If the newbie knew that there wasnt such a one box, do you think he wouldve asked the question in the first place? Listen Ive been many a forum and asked some of the dumbest questions, simply cause i didnt know any better. And therein lies the reason why i asked in the first place. Why was it so hard to simply say "hey, there isnt one simple box, its a technique using many different miking placements, a real piano, and complicated mastering and polishing techniques"? Could you imagine asking for direction to your local McDonalds and everyone snapping at you cause you didnt look in a map in the first place? I get mad at the kid that ask question that could simply be found in a manual as well, but sometimes, our brain farts, and we just dont know where to turn. Its called being human, and for the know-it-alls, and too-good-to-answerers, give it a try. I say this because you never know where your next bit of advice comes from, and how the people that give it will make you feel in your moment of need.
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if you don't like people being honest with you...go to the newbie forum, that's what it's for.
i and many other people here answered the question honestly. please point out one incorrect comment, and I'll correct it. I was very serious in my post and I'm sorry if you can't easily tell the tone of voice I used.

and for the record, his question wasn't "Where is McDonald's located"...it was more like "How come McDonalds doesn't taste as good as that award winning Bar-B-Que restaurant?"
 
Shenanigans said:
Why was it so hard to simply say "hey, there isnt one simple box, its a technique using many different miking placements, a real piano, and complicated mastering and polishing techniques"?
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Because this guy came in here with an attitude, expecting quick answers.

You can tell by the way a lot of these guys word things ... the types of questions they ask, and the way they respond to people's answers. I'm sorry to break it to you, Shenanigans, but some of these guys don't deserve the right answers. Some do, obviously (and you can usually tell who those ones are, too). But some people come here and ask these types of questions because they don't want to put in the necessary amount of work or time required to hone the craft.

They're not passionate about recording, and probably don't deserve to be in the company of those who are.

If they can take a little hazing, then that only proves that they're willing to humble themselves and learn. If not, then it probably means they're uptight and take things too personally ... and probably won't like this board or get much out of it anyway.
 
Chessrock and Bennychico, I feel what youre saying but at the same time are you saying that Albert was wrong for answering directly? And I ask, when did he have an attitude? The first post was simple and straightforward, albeit sophmoric. What word, or sentence made you guys feel defensive? I gave a simple answer without exclamations, or the feeling that the community is out here to belittle. Ive put many a track together, but I still run into daily mixups and questions, and in no way do I feel a newbie, so I wouldnt post such a question in the newbie forum. All Im saying is that he asked a question, I didnt feel any type of hostility in his question, he actually had a specific goal to that question, regardless the complexity of that goal. It was answerable withoput the need for him to feel like he should attack back, whcih he did to you bennychico, as your "type" of answering was a bit on the harsh side. If you question that, check the second post after his, then check yours... who hit the button, and who made the person feel bad?

And I so hate to feel like a peacenik, but damn, I dont wnat yall jumping down my throat when my question comes up, and seems sooo idiotic to you, but at the time my brain is going into complete melt down. No beef, Im just saying the attacking started, in my opinion, when yall jumped at him. He just asked a question, yes, dumb, but still a question.
 
Yall are gonna KILL me for pointing this out, but....

"You can tell by the way a lot of these guys word things ... the types of questions they ask, and the way they respond to people's answers."



I used to hear that alot, when I would hear my neighbor talking about the Hispanic guys mowing her yard. Take it the way you see it...
 
Shenanigans said:
It was answerable withoput the need for him to feel like he should attack back, whcih he did to you bennychico, as your "type" of answering was a bit on the harsh side. If you question that, check the second post after his, then check yours... who hit the button, and who made the person feel bad?
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his original question wasn't arrogant or attacking in anyway, i agree. but his responses to people saying that it's probably not going to be possible for him to replicate the sound on the CD were. It's almost as if he didn't like the answer and wanted people to lie to him and tell him what he wanted to hear....that it was possible to replicate a professional recording in his home with a synthesizer.

my first post in response to his question was totally legit and in no way attacking...sorry once again if the tone of my voice could not come across in that post. I answered his post with a question about which song we were talkign about and he responds:
bennychico11: The song doesn't matter !!!! and to answer a question (which you have so clearly missed the point of) with another pretentious "I'm from the USA we rule the world don't ya know" sort of attitude: doesn't help anybody.
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so i figured he misunderstood me, and decided to clarify why i asked about the song, which i felt was an important fact to know before answering his question. All i was doing after that was trying to point out the logic that he should go through when questions like this arise. In no way was I making fun of him or his question.

And by my comment of "maybe you should go to the newbie forum"...i didn't mean you Sehnanigans. I meant anyone in general that doesn't want to be hurt by peoples' responses. It's like going to the Cave and striking up a conversation about how you think George Bush is the best president ever and then crying later because people say mean comments about him and disagreed with you. Granted, this isn't the political world forum...but the audio world is pretty much the same kind of attitude. Audio/Music people need to grow thick skins right out the door, otherwise you'll never make it in the industry. Not everyone is going to be polite, smile and give you Care Bear kisses when you need 'em.
 
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