So no matter how hard I try

  • Thread starter Thread starter palz.
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I wasn't kidding about the one mic in the middle. But the second simplest advice would be: track. first lay down the drums and bass, then the other instruments (except lead guitar), then vocals, then the lead guitar.
 
Dude, let me get this straight. You're trying to record a drummer who isn't dedicated enough to walk across his basement and move some gobos? Stop now, give him the boot, and get someone dedicated enough to actually HELP with the recording process, vs. hinder it. Sounds like this kid couldn't give 2 shits about this "album" you're trying to record and, thus, shouldn't be in the band.

The best advice I've ever received (and still to this day have a hard time following) is to always, ALWAYS discuss your goals as a band before trying to write song #1. If your goals are different, then you will always be pissed and things will go terribly.

I'm saying this to help you, as you sound like someone in a very similar situation to the one I was in at your age (not all that long ago!) :)
 
Yeah he's been very difficult, but it's a weird situation.

Basically, the band started as a two piece. Me on guitar (and eventually vocals), him on drums. This was a couple years ago, and so while we did agree that we both wanted to pursue music throughout our lives, even together, I guess you can question the validity of two teenagers' career plans. But still, we seemed on the same page, and we started playing together when he picked up drums, so we've come a long way. Just last summer we met up with another band in the area, who were pretty likeminded musically, and lost their bassist. I filled in as their bassist, their frontman filled in as our bassist, and we became this weird collective. Our drummer's been a constant in the band the whole time, and without him the whole nucleus would feel different. Also, without him, the band becomes me and someone else who fronts another band, and who's approached me before with the idea of breaking up both bands and forming a new one so we can share the same creative focus. While he's become a good friend and musical collaborator, I'm SO invested in this album idea that I just am not willing to let go.

And yeah, I realize that runs far off the course of recording. But just as a background summary. The aformentioned other band's lead guitarist is recording savvy and did some stuff with us last summer, but he records 3 bands and we're not sure what the chances are of him recording this album this summer are. Still, I sent him an email and I'm holding out hope. Otherwise I don't really know what to do.
 
LI_Slim said:
I wasn't kidding about the one mic in the middle. But the second simplest advice would be: track. first lay down the drums and bass, then the other instruments (except lead guitar), then vocals, then the lead guitar.
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This is what we do, and it never works well.
 
palz. said:
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Then why is he so fucking lazy? Ask him if he wants to be a part of this CD. If so, tell him to get off his ass & show some initiative. If not, tell him to get out of your way so you can continue on. I'm only telling you this 'cause I wish someone had told me the same thing 4-5 years ago. I've spent the last several years of my life playing music with people who, while they're very good friends, are just holding me back. This is the *real* reason why so few bands end up making anything of themselves: they either give up, or hold themselves back for artificial reasons. You're too young to be dreaming man, you should be DOING!

That said, there's absolutely nothing you can do to make this album not sound like complete dog-shit if the people involved couldn't care less. Hell, even in a multi-million-dollar studio with a top engineer can't make a crappy band sound good (and I mean crappy as in un-dedicated, lazy, etc.).
 
Yeah I appreciate it, I'm going to try and call a "band meeting" ASAP
 
What would really really help you

is for you to do a search online and see if you can come up with a manual for the Fostex. Usually you can find a PDF that you can download and print out.

I still would like to know how you do vocals, and how you mic the overdriven guitar.

Explain your setup in detail. The more you tell us, the more help we can hopefully be. What would be really good is if you could attach a pic.

Once again, just know that you're only going to be able to do so much.
 
Also

Does it sound good when you play?

Because if the sound of the drums sucks, then the sound of the drums sucks. You can do minor things on the recording side, but only minor things unless you have equipment you don't have and aren't going to have.

Unfortunately, one of the things you need is patience, which, no offense, 18 yrs olds usually are pretty short on to begin with. Hey, I remember.

What would benefit you the most is experimentation with placement. Not just mic placement, but move the instruments around the room to see what sounds best where.
 
notCardio said:
is for you to do a search online and see if you can come up with a manual for the Fostex. Usually you can find a PDF that you can download and print out.

I still would like to know how you do vocals, and how you mic the overdriven guitar.

Explain your setup in detail. The more you tell us, the more help we can hopefully be. What would be really good is if you could attach a pic.

Once again, just know that you're only going to be able to do so much.
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heh yeah, I did that but it's 200 printed pages. Oh well.

I use one of the overhead mics to do vocals. I just take it down and sing into it, trying to keep a decent enough distance so that it doesn't clip.

For the overdriven guitar I just took the SM57 and put it up close and slightly off to the side. I dunno how far away it should be from the amp but I admittedly put it right up against. All I know is that people have told me to keep it off the center of the cone, so thats what I did.

I guess overall, it's the Tascam, connected to the mixer, whic his connected to a phantom power source, which is connected to the mics. For the direct guitar (which didn't come out half bad), it's my American Strat into my Marshall DSL 401, ,which is connected from the speaker emulated D.I into the 4-track. For the miked guitar, it's the aforementioned.

I realize mic placement is a huge part of recording, but no one in the band does anything but me, so it's kind of overwhelming. Our bassist lives 30 minutes away and has trouble getting rides here, but he's at least enthusiastic to help and make the effort to be around when we record. If he's there next time hopefully it will help.

Also as I'm not a drummer, I don't know a great deal about drums. All I know is that I can describe the recording as having that "in a cave" sound. It's damp sounding and you can hear the reverberations of the room, I dunno, it's hard for me do explain given that I'm not incredibly experienced.

If anyone wants me to upload the one song we have that features 2 mics on the drums, I can.
 
OK, but I thought you said you were recording this all at one time. Now it sounds as thought you're overdubbing the vocals and at least one guitar (miced).

All you have is the 3 mics, right?

What kind of mixer is it?

And as far as 300 printed pages, that's probably in several languages, so you could look through it on the pc, and only print up through the end of the English part.
 
The drums will sound less "in a cave" if you move the overheads really close. Try moving the cymbals as close to the drums as you can and then getting the overheads really low. Or else put one rode in front of the kit about 5 or 6 feet away at snare height pointing at the snare and put the other rode on the snare as close as it will go before clipping, aiming at the centre. Maybe pad the back of it a little to prevent the drummer damaging it with a stick.
Put the sm57 inside the kick about 5 inches from the head. The drums themselves sound like they might be decent on that recording and that method should help with capturing them more accurately.
I think the kick mic needs to come up in volume a lot if it is micd at all. Also have you applied some high frequency eq to the drums? The cymbals r a bit abrasive. I would cut them back between about 3-6khz a bit.

Try that, it should help, let us hear the results :)
 
palz. said:
I guess overall, it's the Tascam, connected to the mixer, whic his connected to a phantom power source, which is connected to the mics. For the direct guitar (which didn't come out half bad), it's my American Strat into my Marshall DSL 401, ,which is connected from the speaker emulated D.I into the 4-track. For the miked guitar, it's the aforementioned.
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The Marshall DSL you're using is actually a very capable amp for recording purposes. The speaker-emulated Direct Out you're refering to -- while not ideal in a perfect world -- is a much better option than using a fake amp modeler like a POD or similar -- or mic'ing improperly, which you're probably experiencing right now.

It's not a surprize your direct guitar sounds decent (good amps usually = good recordings). It should at least be encouraging to know that you can rule that out of the equation, and start building on your drum tracking from there.

Another thing to consider; the guitar is the only thing you're somewhat happy with, and it's also the only thing that isn't currently going through your mixer. This would lead me to suspect that there may be some issues with your mixer; i.e. it wouldn't surprize me if you were connecting your mixer to the tascam improperly (I'm assuming you're going from the channel inserts of your mixer in to the line inputs on your tascam? -- if not, then that's you're problem right there).

The first thing you should try with the drums is to track them with one mono overhead mic as opposed to two. If that gives you a better sound (less "cavernous"), then it's likely that you're encountering phase issues with your two overhead mics ... and phasing between overheads can make things sound very unnatural and cavernous.

From there you could overdub bass direct through a DI .... and any additional guitar overdubs with the Direct Out of the Marshall, and that should give you a decent start once you get the whole drum issue worked out. You should be approaching this with a more positive attitude. Rather than throwing your hands up in the air and saying "No matter how hard I try, I can't do X" ... you should instead be encouraged by the fact that you've gotten a decent guitar sound. Take your victories wherever you can -- no matter how small -- and build on them. You should, instead be approaching this like: "I've finally gotten a decent guitar tone ... now all I need to do is get the whole drum thing licked -- can someone help me with that?"


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chessrock said:
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Holy shit... there wasn't a single asshole-ish comment in that whole post!!! I don't know what to think! :o
 
steve.h said:
Holy shit... there wasn't a single asshole-ish comment in that whole post!!! I don't know what to think! :o
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When someone prefaces their question with: "I've tried everything," it suggests to me that they are a) working at it, b) willing to put effort in to things, and c) are open to experimentation, and are not simply looking for a quick / easy answer to something.

Something about his post or the way he was responding to suggestions ... didn't set off my punk detector.

I'll spend all day giving thoughtful suggestions in that situation.

.
 
palz. said:
Everything I record sounds shitty.

My band recorded last night and the only thing that sounded any good was the direct guitar. We used 3 mics on the drums; 2 condensors hanging over either side of the kit and a dynamic on the kick, but it still sounded like it was recorded in a cave, and the signal was really low in comparison to the guitars. We miked an overdriven guitar and it sounded awful and weak. This is probably a vague description but if anyone has any advice it'd be appreciated. Thanks.
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The only thing that sounds good is the only thing that your room is not part of. Me thinks your room is quite horrid. Acoustical treatment and better mic placement are keys here.
 
Listen to Chessrock. He's definitely one of the major 'go to' guys here.

He's probably forgotten more about this stuff than most of us will ever learn.

And don't forget, this is going to require some serious effort on your part.

Hint: That might require learning how to use that Fostex.

Anyway, it's going to be trial and error based on educated guesses.
 
Would running the Bass through the Marshall DI damage the amp? Is it possible to unplug the speaker on that amp? I've got some great rock bass sounds through my Fender Deville before. The speaker emulation might help your bass sound a bit. Just make sure its safe to do so before you try it though:)
 
I would think that would be OK, but since he wants to do everything in one take, the amp would already be in use for guitar. And he could DI the bass into the mixer. It wouldn't be the ideal situation, but more than likely better that trying to have the drum mics pick it up.

Good point, though.
 
I think I must've misworded something in one of my posts, cause I don't have any intentions of doing things in one take.

Last time we tried to record We did the drums first, then the rhythm guitar, then the lead guitar, and our bassist wasn't there but by this time I'd already become fed up enough to leave things alone for the night.
 
Also I could've very well hooked up the mixer ass-backwards. We kinda stumbled upon it in his basement, and I blindly fiddled with it til I got it to record into the Tascam and left it at that.

Being that it isn't my room, though, and that I've already blown most of my budget, I don't know how possible treating the room would be. People have mentioned things with curtains and cushions, any advice on that?

If yousendit will work I'll upload the one thing we've done with 2 mics momentarily. As an aside, I mentioned this in an older thread regarding my recording endeavors, but my favorite sounding album is Slanted & Enchanted by Pavement, which is pretty lo-fi and was recorded by the band on an 8-track when they admittedly knew very little about recording. I guess that's what gave me the initial hope of doing it myself, and if I could somehow get something to sound as good (or "badly good") as that I'd be pretty content. So I hope that means I'm not shooting unrealistically high here.
 
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