So I'm Trying To Figure-Out

[Recording Engineer]

Why don't they have a REAL "MIDIVERB" yet? I mean an actual MIDI reverb/multi-FX unit designed specifically for MIDI Channels. 16 channel MIDI cable out the sound module into the FX module. The FX module could even be set-up for 32 MIDI Channels.

In fact, while we're at it, how about a 16 channel MIDI Mixer simply with faders to go with it?

 

[regebro]

First I thought you were joking. Then I saw the MIDI mixer thing, which has been done, so then I started wondering...

Exactly how would you make a "midiverb"?

 

[Senor Cactus]

What do you mean exactly by "midiverb"? Midi is data. Little 1's and 0's and on's and off's. A reverb unit would apply reverb to an instrument sound. So why not just hook up a reverb unit to your sound module? Maybe I don't get what your saying, what would you gain with a "midiverb"?

 

[sjoko2]

Cactus is right.
You've got to distinguish between audio - be it digital or analogue audio - and MIDI data, which is an instruction to an electronic instrument to perform a task - which has nothing to do with audio of any kind.

MIDI mixers - You can configure a lot of digital mixers to provide fader control over MIDI data. Mainly more expensive ones, but even the Mackie D8B has 8 channels of MIDI controllers on its fourth bank.

 

[Roel]

Sjoko is right too.
What you are saying doesn't make sense! You should do some reading on MIDI... What MIDI does: you play some notes on your keyboard, this sends a message to your sound module, saying: "If anyone is on this channel, this dude just pressed a C# and a D simultanious on the keyboard! Do whatever you have to do..."
So your sound module will play these notes, and output the audio on it's audio outputs. On it's midi output, it will just send the data it received (if midi thru is enabled on the midi-out), allowing for other modules to get the message too.

So:

16 channel MIDI cable out the sound module into the FX module.

Whadda?? Output of the sound module is the same as it's input. So you'll hear three bytes with reverb...

 

[Roel]

Oh, some more:

You CAN do a MIDI delay... Just repeating the note-on-messages and note-off-messages, while decreasing the volume. Offcourse, this can only be done with short sounds, cause a note-on message will restart the note...

MIDI mixers... These are just fader-boxes. You adjust the faders, and it will send the change via midi to whatever you hook up. What you control with the faderbox can be configured: volume of a midi channel, reverb, any parameter that can be controlled by midi.
So, midi mixers have NO AUDIO input, just a midi input. The midimessages it receives will be used to configure the device, and will be copied on the output. So, if you play a note on a keyboard, the midi signal is sent to the mixer (next on the chain), mixer doesn't care about that message, just sends it to the next device on the chain, whatever the faderpositions are!!

 

[Recording Engineer]

Guys...

I may not be much into MIDI... But remember I ain't no rookie either!

Of course I know MIDI is data and that "normally", you simply use the 1 or 2 FX busses in the sound module or you could simply insert an FX module after the analog outputs AFTER it was mixed unless it was an 808 or something with each channel with its own analog output... BUT my point was I wonder if it was possible to make a REAL "MIDIVERB"!

What I mean is you can apply 1 or 2 FX to desired MIDI Channels in sound modules before mixing to 2 analog outputs... Well, I wonder if it is possible to have a completely seperate 16 MIDI Channel (There are 16 MIDI Channels in 1 MIDI Cable) FX unit!

So, out sequencer to the sound module, out sound module to the MIDI FX unit, out the MIDI FX unit to the 16 Channel MIDI Mixer where it is mixed and converted to stereo analog.

Could it ever be possible?
If so, would it be too expensive to be worth it?
Etc...

Now, I DON'T know where those FX Busses are applied... If in the data/digital format, I'd think it could be possible... If in the analog, wouldn't that mean they'd have to covert all 16 MIDI Channels into 16 separate analog channels before bussing them to FX and then summing everything to stereo analog?

 

[sjoko2]

It would be a costly excersize, depending on the configuration,you'd have two conversions extra, (perhaps 16 times)
you would have considerable latency, you'd increase jitter, and you'd tie up a lot of recources on whatever system you are using.

What for?

 

[Recording Engineer]

And There You Go!

THAT'S what I figured... It probably IS possible; just NOT economical AT ALL!

What for anyhow?
Well, even though I'm not into MIDI much at all, it would be nice when I DID use, I could have actual faders for all 16 Channels; but even more important, more than 1 or 2 FX Busses for more than 1 or 2 of FX for all 16 Channels. Heck, I'd be happy with 4-6 FX Busses, but 1 or 2 simply SUCKS!

BUT, I suppose I don't use it enough to even worry about it... Thank You for the comments guys!

 

[sjoko2]

You can always get a MIDI controller, so you'll have fader control over your MIDI channels

 

[Roel]

You also have to keep in mind that you have 16 MIDI channels going into your sound module, but most soundmodules have got only 2 to 6 outputs (or 1 to 3 stereo!!)... So they are mixed before they get out of the module...

Then, you'd need alot of effects modules... And an external mixer...
Lotsa $$. You figured it out...

If you get a sound module with more outputs, you can run them into seperate effx processors... Dunno...

Most soundmodules have effx build in... On the JV1010 you can have a seperate eff for each voice, I think... (never programmed the damn thing. Hate PC's... Kill!! kill!! Aaargh. )

As for the mixer, you can quite easily setup a faderbox to control the volume of your 16 channels. As Sjoko mentionned...

 

[tubedude]

123

If I'm not mistaken, Sonar will put effects on every midi track however you want them, just like they were audio. I think it uses the new Dxi instruments format, and all the effects are directx 8, so all paramaters are automatable to boot.
I dont mess with midi much, but I read the manual on it when I got it. Seems like it said you could do this. Maybe I'm just not getting what you mean, though.

 

[Roel]

On a pc with the right software you can do this, probably... But I'm a hardware dude... Or I'm not. Well, I try to be a hardware dude, but they also pay me for doing software which just makes me want to be more of a hardware dude, see?

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Re: Guys...

Of course I know MIDI is data and that "normally", you simply use the 1 or 2 FX busses in the sound module. What I mean is you can apply 1 or 2 FX to desired MIDI Channels in sound modules before mixing to 2 analog outputs... Well, I wonder if it is possible to have a completely seperate 16 MIDI Channel (There are 16 MIDI Channels in 1 MIDI Cable) FX unit!

But at the point right before the module applies the effect, the data is no longer midi and has already been converted to audio.

So, out sequencer to the sound module, out sound module to the MIDI FX unit, out the MIDI FX unit to the 16 Channel MIDI Mixer where it is mixed and converted to stereo analog.

That's the problem there. If you took the midi cable out of the sound module instead of the audio cable out, you would have no tone. Just instructions. It would be as if the sound module were not in the chain at all. The midi instructions MUST be converted to analog or digital audio in the sound module to get any sound at all. If the "MIDI Mixer" converted the midi to sterio analog, then it would need a built in sound module of its own to do it, so the sound module way back at the begining of the chain would be doing nothing. Even if the midi mixer had its own tone generator, you would still have to apply the reverb after the conversion to audio. There is just no way to apply reverb to a set of midi instructions. The instructions have no musical content at all. I guess mabey you could do the "Midi delay" trick to an extreeme. Make the delay repeat so rappidly that it sounds like a sort of reverb, but it would not be even close to a natural sounding reverb.

 

[Senor Cactus]

Chibi Nappa is right. If you're wanting to keep midi effects channels separate from audio channels before they are converted to an audio signal and apply reverb while they are separate... well I don't think it's possible, mainly because of the nature of a "reverb" effect.

A good way to look at it is this: midi can do everything that you can physically do while playing an instrument. You can hit a note, release a note, press a sustain pedal, bend the pitch, play hard or soft. It is performance data. Reverb, however, has nothing to do with a performance. It has to do with the nature of the room you're playing in. Nothing you can physically do can simulate reverb just like midi can't simulate reverb.

Midi effects like delay are possible only because they are something midi can simulate using the performance data.

It sure would be useful though...

 

[tubedude]

well..

Maybe I'm just not understanding the thread, or maybe I'm just imagining what I think is real, but... in Sonar, I'm 99% sure you can put reverb and chorus and whatever else on individual midi tracks JUST LIKE audio. I'm almost totally positve. I'm gonna go check right now.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Re: well..

Maybe I'm just not understanding the thread, or maybe I'm just imagining what I think is real, but... in Sonar, I'm 99% sure you can put reverb and chorus and whatever else on individual midi tracks JUST LIKE audio. I'm almost totally positve. I'm gonna go check right now.

Yes, there is a dial for chorus and reverb on the midi tracks in Sonar and other Cakewalk products, but what you have to understand is this: That reverb and chorus effect is processed in you computer soundcard or soundmodule. The reverb is applied in the card after the midi data has been performed by the card and turned into audio.

Think of it like this: Midi is almost quite litterally sheet music for a sound module. It would be like trying to apply reverb to a piece of sheet music you have standing on your piano. That just doesn't make any sense and is quite impossible. You can play the piano with the sheet music just like the computer plays its sound card with the midi data. You can then take the sound that the piano made and add reverb to that, just as your soundcard does after it plays the midi data.

Why does midi delay work? You can apply delay to the sheet music (just take a pencil and repeat every note on the staff). If you had computer-like playing skills (and your computer does, in fact), you could even add chorus to sheet music (write a second sheet that copies the first but lags a miniscule bit, and play it on a detuned second instrument). You will notice that any devices (like my Emu Orbit) that offer midi chorus take up 2 notes of polyphony for every one note you play because that is exactly what it is doing, playing 2 detuned instruments slightly staggered. But reverb, distortion, phaseres, flangeres, eq, and all that fun stuff just cannot be applied to sheet music. Therefore, it cannot be applied to midi.

 

[Senor Cactus]

Okay, maybe...

Most keyboards and sound modules nowadays have built in effects. In some cases, I believe, these effects paramaters can be controlled externally with software. This will depend both on the capabilities of the software and the capabilities of the module. This would be easier yet if you're using soundfonts or soft synths because everything would be on the computer already.

This still does not apply effects to the midi data itself, it simply operates the built in effects of the module. Plus it depends on your midi device having effects.

Please correct me if I'm talking out of my ass. It happens sometimes. I really should get that checked out.

 

[regebro]

What a confusing thread. Heres the deal:

No, you can't put reverb on MIDI. You can put reverb an the sound made by a synth after that synth has played the midi-data. To have an effects box that can put reverb on everything you send with midi, separately, you need to have 16 stereo reverbs. Why you would want this in one box is beyond me.

 

[sjoko2]

Thank you rege Pfffffff How many different ways can you say the same thing?