So, How Bad Do We Suck?

  • Thread starter Thread starter crawdad
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How bad do we suck?
I just checked and I'm now up to 59 tunes in my homerecording playlist that I listen to regularly. Got a lot of other tunes in the "don't trash these" folder. I like what I hear here... a lot.

I've done 5 albums over the years in pro and semi pro studios. I like just about everything I do at home better. I attribute that to two reasons.
1. The engineer (me) is as deeply involved with the music as the musicians.
2. There is no pay by the hour, so you can take the time to do as much experimenting and whatever else to make it better.
Those are the things I gotta trade off for skill, gear, and environment. I'm not upset with that tradeoff (though a big room to jam in would be awesome).

Those two things apply to most everything that gets posted here. So while some of the production aspects may suffer in comparison to pros, other good things come out.
 
I wanted to respond to this thread. You know..... I'm not one of the "regulars" here. I pop in now and then with a new song looking for advice and comments. I've been a musician a long time and I coordinate the band for a big church. We play to 3000+ every Sunday. I'm pretty thick skinned. I'm generally looking for the critizism so I can improve. I have enough friends apart from this board who'll say "oh I like that song" even if it's lousy.

Regarding drums. At church we use Roland Session V Drums. The V drums are a gazillion times easier for the tech guys to work with. At home I've got an old Roland TD-7 set and a Pearl Export Kit. I almost always mic real kit. And I'll tell ya.... I don't think I've ever got it "right". That is a hard thing to do. I record on to a Yamaha AW4416 but I've been considering going the computer rout just so I can start sequencing drums and all that. But maybe I need to rethink that. If its time consuming and to detail oriented I'll never get it done.

There is no doubt that real drums have their own qualities that are a plus. But they have them that are a minus too. Overtones, mic phasing, ringing and all that. I read that a serious engineer goes into the wave file on his snare track and replaces the space between snare hits with quiet space to get rid of the inherent "background muddle noise" that you get when recording live drums. Now that's tedious.

I think when a person brings live drums into the mix, the engineering difficulty level goes up exponentially.

I think the other thing that is true is that it is difficult for the musician to mix his own music and make it sound "right". Whatever "right" is. I think by the time I play 2 or 3 guitar tracks, a keyboard track, live drums, a bass track, and then try to sing the song... I'm generally to close to it to mix it objectively. No doubt the pro that came in and mixed it would make it sound different than I want it to sound... but in my mind sometimes that what it needs. Hope some of that makes sense.

That's my nickle input that's worth about 2 cents :)
 
i dont think use of samples/modelers should be what separates something from being pro.....the song/arrangemt/performance is everything to me.....one of my favorite CD's lately has been one recorded by an okie ass redneck at his home (or so he says).....not exactly technical excellence, but theres no way Ill say its NOT pro, because those songs stand right up to most things on the chart......

so, i concede that for the most part, Ed is right....alot of people here would be lost if they HAD to record everything with mics....but the fact of the matter is they dont have to and i dont give a rats ass if they do or not.....some people here are putting out good stuff and im not gonna trivialize it by labeling it "pro" or "not pro".....

"So I make these comments because I like to remind you guys that it IS that obvious, and most of you are a far cry from engineering something worthwhile."
that comment bothered me - you either know why or you dont

so yes most of the stuff coming out of the clinic doesnt sound like it was pro engineered....so what?.....
 
Personally, I stopped giving a shit what sonusman thought a long time ago.. (no offense)

I got tired of reading posts that said things like "one day when I hear some drum samples I like, I'll start telling people how to make them sound better," and other useful posts like that.. I also disagree with some of the things he says..

An example is his digust for amp modelers.. He said they won't sound good when used with real drums.. I know for a fact there are a few pro's who use them.. The first example that comes to my mind is the latest King's X cd... The sound is great and Ty used a Pod Pro..


I listen to lots of stuff in the clinic and I would say 6 out of 10 don't come anywhere near pro sounding, but that other 3 or 4 come pretty close sometimes..


No offense to anyone named in this post.. I payed for a pro recording 2 times in my life, and my stuff at home sounds better no matter how you slice it.. Even though the studio had expensive mics and real drums etc..


I think the homerecorder is putting some of the 'pro engineers' out of business.. Not that I don't love real drums and real amps, but I don't think amp modelers and sampled drums stop a recording from being great by any means.. they make it easier to sound good, and sometimes great..




my 2
 
so yes most of the stuff coming out of the clinic doesnt sound like it was pro engineered....so what?.....


I think it just means that while people like us like a lot of the music here, most people ...... like the 90% percentile range.... wouldn't buy it, and a radio station that played only it wouldn't last long.

The thing most here like about the music here is the music. The fact that it doesn't sound like Britney Spears or something. The guy that says ... well the engineering doesn't sound pro or as good as it could be.... but I like it better that way... I mean that's an extreme minority. Don't you think?
 
B.SABBATH said:
I payed for a pro recording 2 times in my life, and my stuff at home sounds better no matter how you slice it.. Even though the studio had expensive mics and real drums etc..
Click to expand...

Same experience here....I rather hear the music of a homerecorder who exactly knows how to make the most out of his cheap-ass setup than the work of an official 'producer' who destroys every recording because of time pressure (most of the times), general lack of love for music, or lack of knowledge about his newly acquired equipment (they just can't stop buying new equipment you know? You gotta 'keep up with the latest trends'....Listen here, little boy....I will record this 24bit and I will use loads of autotuner, it's sooooo new and hip, I have no idea how it all works, but I'll do it anyway and probably destroy your recording, afterwards I'll charge a lot of money for this crap because I'm a real producer and I know what's good for you and your music...)

Btw, I just heard some Robbie Williams and Christina Aquilera on the radio. Those vocals sound mighty overprocessed to me... ;)
 
It's not the gear so much as the source. When I listen to "From A Boy To A Girl" by Erland I get goose bumps. That could be on the radio the way it sits and I believe he tracked that onsome kind of Portastudio with a dynamic mic. I read many posts about folks moaning about drum sounds, lamenting their kick or snare mics. I had pretty decent Yamaha kit in here miked up for a few months and had four different drummers record on it. When a weak drummer played the kit I would wonder what's wrong with the snare mic? Do I need to put up a different mic? Then this guy who's a monster player sat down at the same kit with the same mics and it's like HOLY SHIT! The kick would make your chest cavity resonate and the snare had that WAAP! The point being with drummer A you could change mics and drums all day long in a pro studio or at home and it would always sound amatuerish and with drummer B, two or three 57's and a Mackie 1202 would blow you away. If you have something to say, it comes through no matter where you are.
 
kjam22 said:
[Bs][I think it just means that while people like us like a lot of the music here, most people ...... like the 90% percentile range.... wouldn't buy it, and a radio station that played only it wouldn't last long.

[/B]
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thats a sad thing and exactly why I dont listen to the radio anymore.......

hopefully that doesnt discourage the people here that are making great music......
 
B.SABBATH said:
I think the homerecorder is putting some of the 'pro engineers' out of business..
Click to expand...

*nod*

Or at least taking some business away I suspect.
 
Frankly I don't expect it to sound that good, because my equipment sucks :) I think some of your stuff sounds pretty close to professional. Deep down the main thing I wanna do is produce a good enough demo, because I'm only 15 and if I've got a nice demo, I've got a lot of years ahead of me to get a contract (I hope :))
 
Kid Rock & Sheryl Crow - "Picture"

PRO ALL THE WAY, BABY!!!

I actually like both of them individually, but if you haven't heard this professional production, do yourself a favor and hear a song that charted on BOTH Pop and Country Charts, and then start telling me about what is required "sonically" for a tune to be successful.

If we're gonna' talk about "extreme minorities," I say we talk about the one-thousanth of a percentile of the general population that even NOTICES drums on a tune. My apologies to the purists and drummers, but give me a fucking break.

Sam, lmao ... you have a real way with tact, BAHAHAhahahaa... the "no offense" made me spit caffeinated beverages all over the place.

mixmkr - Madonna and Michael Jackson...hrm. That explains SOOOO much, lol.

Pedullist - Nice post

Crawdad - Your recordings have already made inroads into the "13 year old girl" market, and we all KNOW that THAT'S the secret to success.

sonusman - I can see you care about what you do...that's cool...it's more than most people can say about their jobs, so rock on...but when you find yourself compelled to "remind people" that they'll never get anywhere close to the brass ring using the tools at their disposal, you come across like some kind of defeatest whiner. I'm not saying you're not right, I'm just saying that attitudes like yours make me not wanna' do stuff "right," lmao.

Everybody Else - Have you listened to "mbuster's" latest offering? I think he used real drums?!?!?!!?!?!!

Oh, and we don't suck, lol. Maybe I'm just too practical, but in a world where 90% of the listening audience is hearing an "mp3" on 3" speakers sitting on top of their desk, the nuances of the decay of the crash cymbal are...well...totally unimportant. Most of my crap is sonically unimportant anyway, so I pretty much HAVE to have this opinion, lol.
 
An interesting thread.

I started doing this just so I could get some demos out for songs I wrote - then I discovered you guys. And it seemed like pro sounding recordings were within my grasp. And I went and bought a lot of mics, and better software...

...and I still have a really long way to go. I do sense that people pull punches in the clinic - I know I do - but when I say a recording has a pro sound, I really mean it. But how good's my ear? I can't hear the 3D stuff Al's talking about, for example. I can hear glaring errors, and tone problems - IOW, I can hear the difference between bad and okay, but not between good and great. Yet.

I've spent enough time listening to scratchy old Charlie Parker records, distant FM stations, and CDs I can barely hear over the road noise (de facto speed limit along I-69 is about 90mph) that I listen for content more than nuance. I'm trying to develop an ear for the latter (that's how I finally "discovered" Dusty Springfield), but it'll take years to get to where I hear what I need to hear.

I have STRONG delusions (hope they're NOT delusions!!!) about leaving the day job for a music career - that's why I'm back at school at the age of 48. There's nobody in Catholic music who's making a living strictly as a songwriter (though Mike Joncas probably could live on the royalties from "Eagle's Wings" alone), and I'm sure I won't be the one to break the trend. So I get a parish music director's job at $30-40K, make some on the side with my songwriting (still waiting for that first royalty check - I'm expecting to make dozens of dollars!), get a few students, maybe a weekend bar gig. If the wife goes back to work, we can probably keep paying the mortgage.

So I'll keep slugging away, try to make my demos better, maybe sell some CDs to a gullible parish, maybe sell some songs and make dozens more in royalties...

...or maybe Chris Harris will let me drive the bus when he's rich and famous.;)
 
Uh oh....


Here's my chance to lose all the friends I've made over the last few years....

:D


;)


(this is gonna be a long one.... so grab yourself some cheetos and pop a squat. :p)




I look at it this way....


When I come to the clinic... I come to hear home recordings. I don't come here to hear pro recordings. I have "clinic ears" and then I have "normal ears". When I listen to stuff here... I'm listening with my clinic ears. I don't place a clinic recording up to the same standard as a pro recording... any why?? Well,... because I don't expect it to sound pro. :p


I'm a nice guy and all... :p but I'm also an extreme realist. I have no delusions of anything (let alone grandeur :p). I also don't think it's necessarily insulting or "bad" to think like this... because there's nothing worse then self-inflicted delusion. I would much rather be fully aware and know that I'm not that good, than think I'm great based on a self-delusion.



There are a number of reasons why I don't ever expect clinic recordings to sound pro... but first, I'll make a few caveats regarding the term "pro".


There are a lot of crappy "pro" recordings out there... Avril Lavigne comes to mind. Canned, Hyper-Compressed drums/guitars and extremely over-autotuned vocals make her sound as plastic as she looks. :D So don't think that just because something is on the radio that it has great sonic quality. (although, everyone here already knew that. :p)

Also,... nowadays, (as was previously mentioned) people listen to tunes at 128K bit-rate on crappy computer speakers, and they think it sounds fine. So obviously, the bar has been lowered a lot over the last couple of decades...


...but there is still a pro sound out there... and this pro sound is created by the convergence of a few key ingredients.


1) Professional Players. (As was previously mentioned) the difference that can be made by a pro drummer vs. a hack drummer is immeasurable. The same goes for a professional acoustic guitar player/pianist/whatever. There are guys around here that are very good (don't get me wrong), but very few of us have the time to play guitar/drums/whatever all-day or sit around and work on our "chops". (I sure as hell don't. :p ) So, the first ingredient that most (if not all) recordings around here are missing is a completely flawless performance of each track. And by "flawless", I mean flawless meter also.. tempo deviations (whether by just one instrument or by all of them) are one of the most prominent signs of a "home" recording.


2) Perfect Recording Environments. The room you record in has a huge impact on the sonic quality of your recordings. Vocals/Acoustics/mic'ed amps/whatever all sound better in a "perfect" room. There will always be that, "gee, it sounds like he recorded that guitar in his bedroom" element to our songs, as long as they are.... well.... recorded in a bedroom. :D


3) Professional Equipment. Some of the aspects of this ingredient have become less important lately with the advent of the home-recording "market". It's harder and harder to hear the differences between a $500 mic and a $2000 mic... but there are still differences. That's not to say that a mic is the most important piece of equipment. The instruments are just as vital. I mean... let’s face it... sampled drums will never sound as good as a high-end, finely-tuned, perfectly-mic’ed kit. :p And you will never get a mid-range Takamine to sound as good as a hand-picked Taylor 915ce (mmmmm.... yummy.... :D). The same goes for piano/elec-git/bass git/etc. Then you have the compressors/limiters/EQs/consoles/monitors/pres/you-name-it. All this adds up to an important impact on the sonic state of your recordings.

4) Talent/Experience. These are two different things, but they fall under the same category. Talent can't be acquired.. experience can... but they both have a similar impact on your recordings. If you know just the right way to fade in that guitar change, or just the right sample to use for that intro, or know the best way to get the fattest sound out of that bass/elec-git/drum-kit (whether it be through the amp selection, or the room treatment, or the mic placement, or whatever.)… if you know how to get that acoustic to sound like it's right up in your face without a trace of background "distraction"... if you know just the right freq's to pull back to bring out the life in a mix... if you know how your mixes will translate based on the monitors you're listening on... then you have an advantage. And all these things added up throughout the course of a recording project have probably the greatest impact on the end result.




But just because I can acknowledge that those ingredients are necessary, does that mean that I think I'm all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips...?


lol....


um… not quite. :cool:


I'm the first to admit that my stuff is way under par... Of all the tunes I have up on NWR, as far as I'm concerned only one of them is even worth listening to (as far as recording quality goes). Everything else is garbage (sonically).


But who cares... I never expected to produce a "pro" sound. It's just not a reasonable expectation. (considering I lack pretty much all the key ingredients. :D) So, if all you got is drum samples... then use 'em. If all you have is an SM58 and Behrenger mixer... then run with it. :p Yeah... our goal is to get a better sound and to come as close to "pro" mixes as possible... but for me, it's not about actually becoming pro...


and you know what.... I don't see why it would be about that for anyone else. I mean... sheesh... if you wanna be a pro engineer... then what on earth are you doing hanging around a bunch of amateurs??? If you wanna get better at something, then you need to surround yourself with the best. Go to school for it... train under a pro... take some night classes... whatever. Don't think that getting a few posts of feedback from fellow amateur home-wreckers is gonna eventually make you a "pro"... 'cause it's not. We have to set realistic goals here... and if anyone's goal is to sound "pro" by showin' up here and posting a few mixes, then I'd suggest you find another method to do so. :p


In the entire time I've been here (3 years or so now) I've only heard one poster in this clinic who put up mixes that I could swear were pro. That was a long time ago, and his stuff isn't up on the net anymore, but that was pretty much a shock... I didn't expect to hear stuff that sounded "pro" by coming here, and I still don't. But what does that matter... most of us are musicians... not AE's. It's the songs that matter... it's the compositions and the productions that count... I mean... I would take whatever it is that Erland has any day over the ability to make "pro" recordings. :p


So I don't see what's so bad aboot the fact that we don't sound "pro". I've enjoyed doing this so far. I've tried to make the best out of what I had to work with (much like everyone else here). I've seen a noticeable improvement in my recordings. I've had a chance to share them with a bunch of people all over the world, and I've had the chance to learn a lot from others.

What more can I ask for?


WATYF
 
Originally posted by Sonusman
So are you saying that people should mold their art to the tools available? I don't disagree for a second that there is a LOT of music being put out that is mostly samples. The song posted in the thread where this all started is NOT that type of music though. And most of you around here are NOT doing that kind of music.
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Yes, I think I agree with this concept. Personally my approach is I know ahead of time that I am using sampled percussion so I purposely do not assign a prominent role to this element. It's meant to be more of a background accompaniment rather than a typical 4 piece arrangement. I mean back in the days of Vienna no one was complaining because John Bonham wasn't set up in the orchestra pit. I try to shift the strength of the composition to rest on the melodic elements.

Generally when I am listening to a recording I am not trying to isolate timbre and quality for each of the tracks, I find that listening in this manner can be considered a "hostile" approach. More often I am trying to let the overall feel of the entire piece take hold and I forget to analyze each individual piece because I am too busy enjoying the whole.

Originally posted by B.SABBATH
I payed for a pro recording 2 times in my life, and my stuff at home sounds better no matter how you slice it.. Even though the studio had expensive mics and real drums etc..
Click to expand...

Like many others here I had tried the same thing. I had two albums recorded in a studio (one mastered at Masterdisk, what a fuckin waste of 2 grand. I could swear Howie was fucking stoned or on X or whatever). Some cuts managed to even get a handful of spins on commercial radio and regular rotation on college.

When I listen to these compared to my home stuff I think the studio stuff sounds like crap (real drums and all). Granted I'm not even sure if the $50/hr studio we went to even qualifies as "pro" anyway. After seeing the control rooms at Sony I realized there's big leeway in what qualifies as "pro". I have a feeling these entry level studios have the most to lose in terms of business with the advent of better home recording gear and sampled percussion. There is no Time/$ constraints on a home recording. If your voice sounds like crap one day or your bass player has a fever, you can always come back to it later. 10 takes in a studio does not outweigh 100 takes at home in my opinion.


Maybe in terms of mixing and post production the material posted here is not radio quality. I do however believe that some of the TRACKING done here may be of professional quality. For example you could take the raw tracks of some of these songs, hand them over to JoE PLATINumRecadz and he mixes them up into radio quality. It may take a little extrapolation but often you can hear the potential.


Originally posted by ChrisharrisIf we're gonna' talk about "extreme minorities," I say we talk about the one-thousanth of a percentile of the general population that even NOTICES drums on a tune. My apologies to the purists and drummers, but give me a fucking break.

Maybe I'm just too practical, but in a world where 90% of the listening audience is hearing an "mp3" on 3" speakers sitting on top of their desk, the nuances of the decay of the crash cymbal are...well...totally unimportant.
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Even though this was posted by Chris, I have to wholeheartedly agree. My roomate had the radio on this morning to WPLJ and as I showered I heard three songs in a row with canned drums. I wouldn't have even noticed if it weren't for my recent HR experiences, almost to the point where I felt my objectivity was being "poisoned" by reading too much in here.

Sometimes I think it's become the audio equivalent of reading "Cigar Afficionado". Just gimme a damn Marlboro.
 
Pedullist said:


We're nice to each other on this board because we know everyone's limitations. We know no one around here has the right knowledge, time and/or equipment (what's the 'right' equipment anyway?), so we listen with different ears than a pro would do. Although we like to think of this board as a mixing board, we all listen with musician's ears: we listen to the music first. It's in our blood. If it touches our souls, we don't care about fake drums, 16bit or 24 bit, SBLive or Terratec anymore.

Basically, this board is about love. Yes, love :) We're a bunch of women asking their husbands whether we look fat in this or that dress...we all KNOW the truth, but we're looking for something more motivating and inspiring than 'the honest truth'...

Besides that: why does 'the honest truth' always have to be brutal and negative? Here, I'll give you my honest truth:

Music is fun, and I love you all! :)
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Even someone that really sucks can improve with a little help and positve motivation. Tell a little kid that he's stupid, and watch how quickly he lives up to your expectations!

We are a support group. We all need a little positive reinforcement along with a little honesty to keep moving in the right direction. This is group therapy.

How bad do we suck? Well, some of us suck pretty badly, but I hear some pretty amazing stuff here everyday, and it gives me something to work toward. Maybe someday I'll only suck a little.

P.S. My mom says I'm really talented, and moms don't lie!


Twist
 
Track Rat said:
It's not the gear so much as the source. When I listen to "From A Boy To A Girl" by Erland I get goose bumps. That could be on the radio the way it sits and I believe he tracked that onsome kind of Portastudio with a dynamic mic. I read many posts about folks moaning about drum sounds, lamenting their kick or snare mics. I had pretty decent Yamaha kit in here miked up for a few months and had four different drummers record on it. When a weak drummer played the kit I would wonder what's wrong with the snare mic? Do I need to put up a different mic? Then this guy who's a monster player sat down at the same kit with the same mics and it's like HOLY SHIT! The kick would make your chest cavity resonate and the snare had that WAAP! The point being with drummer A you could change mics and drums all day long in a pro studio or at home and it would always sound amatuerish and with drummer B, two or three 57's and a Mackie 1202 would blow you away. If you have something to say, it comes through no matter where you are.
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I couldn't agree more!!

Al
 
sonusman said:

The reason I review and make comments about "fake drums" and "emulators" is because I feel I am the balance concerning these things. Shit, I remember once Blue Bear Sound tried to "fool" me with two different mp3's, one with V Drums, and the other with real drums. He really thought I wouldn't be able to tell the difference!!! LOL. I responded to his email REALLY fast with the answer to which was which, and he was blown away that it was that obvious.------------etc....
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Personally, I'm always open to learning from people - and I don't particularly care whether they're polite or not (who cares? It's just the web.:)).

So out of curiosity I checked out the audio samples on sonusman's Opal Studios. Interestingly, the very second song sample is a Howlin' Wolf cover with some absolutely hilariously bad-sounding drums! I mean, they sound like they were recorded in a Yuban can. And not bad in a cool, bluesy way - bad in a fake, programmed, "homerecording way".:)

Listening to the remaining songs I heard: some rap (fake drums), an acoustic tune (no drums), some ambient female vocalist thing (very distant drums - mostly a kick and a crash) and a couple of metal/pop-ish tunes with some decent-sounding drums.

I know there's probably several of you who can swear to this guy's talent. And I'm not much interested in debating it (hell, who am *I* to talk - his stuff still sounds better than mine). But the genius that would excuse the arrogance ain't much apparant from those audio samples.

Chris
 
Groucho, you cheeky sod! Checking out Sonusman's stuff and commenting on it in his own 'brutallly honest way'...very clever. :)

Btw, politeness does matter...but let's not get into that. There's a Dobro thread somewhere concerning that matter.

> off topic:

B. Sabbath: you like King's X. You're my friend... :)
 
Man, I'm LOVING this thread! Everybody's coming up with really great points and they are all valid. I especially agree that its got to be about the music first--thats the reason and the vehicle. And everything WATYF said in his big list up there is more or less true. And Pedillist--how DOES my new dress look? :D

Despite the lack of great rooms and expensive gear, there IS something all of us have: a pair of ears. My next question is, how do we train these ears to become familiar with the problems of audio? If we could gain that knowledge, hearing correctly could be the most precious resource of all. Alot of it is probably experience, but it can also be taught. I never used to hear sibilance in vocal tracks, but I sure do now. Ears are what a trained pro brings to his job first and foremost. Its something sonusman has deveoped and its the reason he can get a great recording with an ART Tube MP.

You know what I wish? I think most will like this idea--I wish we had a weekly article by a pro, just dealing with one thing at a time. We could make a sticky out of it, and, over time, it might become the defacto standard for crossing from home recording into pro results. I don't know if the pros are all that interested in divulging their secrets, but something like this would be incredible in the clinic.
 
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