So, How Bad Do We Suck?

crawdad

crawdad

Dammit, Jim, Shut Up!
This comment from Sonusman slipped to the second page way too fast. Its brutally honest, but it contains a lot of truth:


The reason I review and make comments about "fake drums" and "emulators" is because I feel I am the balance concerning these things. Shit, I remember once Blue Bear Sound tried to "fool" me with two different mp3's, one with V Drums, and the other with real drums. He really thought I wouldn't be able to tell the difference!!! LOL. I responded to his email REALLY fast with the answer to which was which, and he was blown away that it was that obvious.

So I make these comments because I like to remind you guys that it IS that obvious, and most of you are a far cry from engineering something worthwhile. Samples make it easy to produce a product that sounds somewhat okay. But it sound phoney. One you all try to mic up a real kit, and to deal with a whole production where the only thing that was DI'ed was possibly the bass guitar, you start to appreciate just how far away from that "pro sound" you really are. I see post after post of how crap sounds "pro", and I feel the need to point it out, because it seems that this "clinic" is full of "I will give your shitty production nice comments if you give my shitty production nice comments". I see little "truth" being shared. From time to time, yes, guys will comment, but it seems that something has to be REALLY bad, or the original poster has to have some displayed "attitude" to get negative feedback.

Well, I've been thinking about it all night. Yes, we record at home, often with little DAW's and a handful of cheap mics. There are a few who are getting close. Obviously, certain styles of music are based on synths and drum machines, but the results I'd like to achieve contain lots of real instruments and vocals. Oh, I'd love to say, See here, Ed: listen to this and tell me its not pro!" Unfortunately, I have nothing to back up my words with!:D

I hear a lot of great work here, but when I put on what I consider a superbly recorded and mixed CD, I do see the difference pretty clearly. The ultimate question is: CAN it really be done at home or are we all just chasing rainbows?
 
I don't really expect to get pro quality at home. That would be chasing a rainbow. But with advice from Ed and the others here I can improve until it's the best it can be. That's all I want. If you want to go pro, you'll have to go to a studio. That seems pretty clear.


Twist
 
Twist--You are probably right, but a part of me wants to believe I could get a lot closer than I do. Really, the point of this thread is to discuss what we might try--especially in regards to fake drums and DAW mixing. I have a lot of thoughts, but I'd rather hear some responses before I spout off!:D
 
I know pro's that use samples for drums (anyone hear of Mutt Lange)......

so fuck Ed and the horse he rode in on.......:D
 
I'll have to agree that everything said there seems to ring pretty true with me.

I belong to the strata of beginners who just haven't got the experience to add serious mixing comments, but still I like to listen to everyone's music and I think everyone here is qualified to comment on the musicality. In terms of pure production however I imagine there's only a few qualified, but if this forum was boiled down to posts by those people it would be awfully quiet in here and well.. what fun would that be :D



However, one thing that's been bothering me since I've begun posting again in the clinic. What is the deal with real kits? You may not be able to make synthetic drums appear organic to the trained ear, but still that doesn't diminish the musicality of the percussion (and still that's only 1 out of 100 listeners). When the bar is loud and crowded no one is listening for the jukebox for canned drums and when I hear an electric piano or a keyboard I don't immediately dismiss the composition because I don't hear a baby grand.

I guarantee miking live drums is a very difficult art to master, but I don't understand why it has to be mandate. I watch thousands of people dancing away in Manhattan mega-clubs oblivious to the fact that the percussion may be nothing more than a fruity loops template. Certainly in band performances you would want to have a live percussionist but so much commercial music today is not geared toward this.

Maybe I'd just like to see more acceptance of electronic percussion as "method of choice" rather than the default "inferior presentation" label it seems to be saddled with.
 
Kohmpewter--In regard to the canned drums issue, I think there are a variety of reasons why I personally prefer live drums. First, the kind of music I enjoy uses real drums. Second, theres a certain sense of space that a nice miked up kit offers to the soundstage of a mix. Third, real drums have sonic variance and wild variables that canned kits don't have--its just harmonics and the way different hits come out a tad differently. Fourth, real drums aren't quantized, so they keep a human feel. Fifth, there's nothing better than a great drummer. (yet!):D

In contrast, most people don't have the depth of understanding to program drums like a real drummer could. We go for the simple patterns too often without enough variance and variety. If you are like me, you quantize. I have to--if I didn't my percussion tracks would sound like a bowling ball falling down stairs. Another thing--drum machine and sampled cymbals, for the most part, are static recordings--each hit has the exact same sonic information, Compare that to a real cymbal, where each hit may yield a different harmonic structure. Also, most drum machines have those damn truncated cymbals that ring for all of about 2 seconds. Compare that with a real cymbal, which may ring for 45 seconds. I think the ear picks up the difference.

Even though we can effect our fake kits and add a room sound to them, its an artifical room instead of a real nice tuned room where the pros record those great live kits. Again, there is randomity in the reflection patterns in the real world.

All subtle stuff, for sure. Maybe even purist junk. Yet, the human brain and ear is pretty sensitive to the fine points and I think thats why it can make a difference.
 
Gidge said:
I know pro's that use samples for drums (anyone hear of Mutt Lange)......

so fuck Ed and the horse he rode in on.......:D
Click to expand...

His records don't sound real to me, though! Mutts productions are great in and of themselves, but they sound so cut and paste to me that I find them annoying.
 
crawdad,

Ed is actually a pretty encouraging guy, I think. He posted a few tunes here before, which he used Art (or mackie) pres and not so expensive mics on, but the results were still amazing.

I think his comments often have this counter-effect and make us re-think about weather the gear is the limit or the person, which is kinda encouraging.

And he does make good points, too, just in harsh ways sometimes.

ps about your comments on cymbals, someone on this board actually owns a cymbal (just a cymbal) for that very reason. Maybe that can help alot. just a thought


Al
 
I know! I'm not dissing Ed at all. And I have heard some of his recordings with the ART pres and they are really good. I side with him in the theory that it doesn't take expensive word class gear to make good recordings. I just wish I could prove it with my own work! :D We need Ed to keep us on task and level headed around here. In fact, I'm sticking around just hoping that maybe he'll slip me the secret someday!:D
 
Gidge said:
no, i meant I really wanna fuck Ed and his horse:eek: :D :p ;)
Click to expand...

How are you gonna get any better if you keep on fucking those animals all the time, Gidge? (the horse, I mean--sorry Ed--that didn't come out like I intended!):D
 
crawdad said:
The ultimate question is: CAN it really be done at home or are we all just chasing rainbows?
Click to expand...

of course it can be done at home...testified by the fact that so many current productions are done at home (but then most likely mixed and mastered down the street!). The question you are asking (it seems to me) is more like "CAN it be down with Cooledit Pro on a computer and some Chineese mics, and NOT having to spend a wad on equipment?" In some cases yes...and some no(mostly..as you know). Depends on too many factors, but most people that have "caught the rainbow" aren't using Mackie mixers and Studio Projects microphones. Not saying that is "bad" equipment, but the "quality home projects" might include artists like Steve Vai and his mothership studio, Eddie VH and his home setup, ...etc, etc.. those that have good studios...and usually a bit more than a 32x8 Mackie and a couple of ADATs.
You may not think their recordings are all that top notch, but they certainly did A LOT of recording at home and are certainly selling A LOT of records.
Additionally, whether or not you like Mutt Lange(or whoever) is not the issue. But, he has certainly "financially" caught the rainbow...and look at all the stuff he had done in a home environment. Just another example.

ok...is anyone "catching the rainbow" in the MP3 clinic. In MY opinion...close but no cigar. Generally there is one ingredient that seems to be missing, but having a couple people like Slucie or samicide post their stuff, sure makes it look like they are [reaching the goal]... BUT, that to me is because they are heads and shoulders above the rest that post in the clinic...but not compared to those that are selling millions of $ worth of CDs. CyanJaguar talks about a "wildcard", and there is something to that statement. Ask those two guys also...they realize their shortcomings as compared to the people they admire professionally.

But..the real kicker is that there is a "gray area" where there is SHIT pro stuff out, and QUALITY home recorded stuff that should replace the pro stuff on the Walmart racks. There most definately is an overlap. But in general, it usually isn't the case...just an exception, if you catch what I am trying to say.

oh yeah....Personally, I think Madonna and Michael Jackson have some of the most steller recordings on the market...but real drums... nope....real instruments...nope...maybe a gtr or so... I'm not a big fan of their music, but their recordings are something to admire from a sonic viewpoint...even if it is only samples and black boxes. However...you'll never catch a die-hard Allman Bros. fan agreeing with that statement. Something about a ES335, or a Les Paul thru a Fender amp, it seems;)
 
Re: Re: So, How Bad Do We Suck?

mixmkr said:
But..the real kicker is that there is a "gray area" where there is SHIT pro stuff out, and QUALITY home recorded stuff that should replace the pro stuff on the Walmart racks. There most definately is an overlap. But in general, it usually isn't the case...just an exception, if you catch what I am trying to say.
Click to expand...

Good point. The only thing I would disagree with is the size of that gray area. It's large, and getting larger all the time as more people accuire the skills & gear necessary to make quality recordings themselves.

Of course what good does it do you to make a clean, balanced & dynamic recording if it's gonna be destroyed in mastering in the name of loudness? I don't buy much music from the majors these days. Their prices are too high, and the quality is generally pretty low.

That said sound quality is a secondary issue to me. If I like the music I'll listen to it pretty much regardless of the recording quality.

I respect Ed's opinion, especially considering what I've heard of his work, but it's not going to keep me from continuing to record with my limited skills in my little room with my cheap gear. This is one of my hobbies, and learning this stuff is half the fun.;)
 
I'm hesitant even to comment on this because I'm still such an amateur, and every few weeks I realize that some other idea I'd been carrying around about recording was completely wrong.

BUT... (of course I can't keep my mouth shut), my gut feeling is that it has less to do with gear than with experience, and that gear-wise, a good monitoring system is worth more than all the great mics, pre-amps, etc. combined, and that good ears are worth more than that, and that a good performance is also a big part of it, and that LOTS OF TIME mixing, recording, learning from your mistakes, over and over for YEARS AND YEARS is probably worth more than the rest of it combined. Check back with all of us in 20 years and see if the mixes haven't improved!

I do pity those folks who are going for that big slick glossy pop sound (oddly, that seems to be what most people mean when they say "professional"). There are many people whose only frame of reference is top 40 pop. To them, many of my favorite records would probably be indistinguishable from many of the submissions here in the clinic. Which is not to say that I agree (*I* hear the difference) - only to say that there are lots of ways for music to sound - some more overtly slick and "produced" sounding than others.

But either way, it sure is fun.

Chris
 
Mixmkr--I don't think there's a single soul hanging here who has a studio which compares to the "home" studios of Steve Vai or Mutt Lange. They probably have a couple of limiters that are more expensive than most of our complete recording facilities, right? I know for a fact that if we all had that kind of gear, the quality of the clinic posts would see a dramatic shift for the better. There would be a learning curve involved, but with time, there would be master quality stuff appearing.

Before I started hanging out on this board, my opinion was basically that I could do a decent DEMO, but that there was NO WAY I'd ever replicate the quality of a major studio. I was happy with that. I did an album with a band that was recorded on ADATS, mixed with a ProMix1, and mastered by a guy with a Finalizer and a pair of good ears. Turned out decent. Was it a pinnacle in recording? No way, man! Decent, but just close--no cigar.

Well, since then, I've bought a bunch of mics, preamps and software. I've studied mic placement and a number of recording techniques. I don't think I've made ANY progress, really. Of course, I'm sloppy, I can't hear worth a shit and I'm too impatient most of the time. I can crank out demo quality stuff all day long, but I'd like to be able to really hit the next level. At this point, I'm leary of buying some new gismo, thinking it will be the missing link, ya know? Other than owning a boat, having a studio is like a great hole where you throw your money and it disappears.

As for music styles, synthesizer based music is an art form in itself, but it's not the area of recording I want to excel in. For me, its getting a great bass sound, or that fabulous acoustic guitar recording, or a vocal take that has that magic (whatever it is). I've been doing synth productions for almost 20 years, which I don't post here. Getting a good sound is almost as easy as dialing up a good patch these days.

When I hear how James Taylor's guitar is recorded on the new record, or how Jackson Browne's rhythm section was recorded, my jaw drops, just as many jaws dropped when Steely Dan's Aja came along. That's when I say, "why can't I get that?". Obvious answers: great players, great tone at source, great engineers working with expensive gear, great rooms, great songs, etc.

But its just sound in the end. With all this potential at our fingertips, we should be able to nail a bunch of that stuff. But I sure can't, and its frustrating and maddening. I'd like to record one worthy solo record before I croak and I want to do it here at my cave. I don't wan't my tombstone to read, "The fucking idiot--he believed he could do it at home."

I agree with your estimation of Sluice and B. Sabbath. They obviously work hard at their craft and I appreciate that. They are both talented beyond belief. Here's what is missing: the sense of spatial plane and depth. Even the best stuff here doesn't exploit the 3D effect that audio can have. The records I adore all have it--its an elusive, three dimensional presence. You not only here the instrument, you hear the exact space that its in. I don't know if thats a result of recording technique or analog tape or expensive processors or what. I just know that I don't hear it and I can't find it myself.

Like M. Brane, its the music that turns me on first. If its great, I don't care that much if the recording is less than great. A wonderful song moves me. Couple that with a wonderful recording, though, and I'm hitting nirvana--and I don't mean Cobain. (Well, he had some great moments too). I have records that I just get lost in, sonically speaking. I get amazed at how they captured something in a magical way.

Yes, there is an overlap in terms of songs and musical creativity. I'm way past even trying to keep current with what is happening, but when I listen to public radio, I hear a lot of 10 minute noodling songs that are impeccably recorded, but have no real substance. Studios somewhere are making some money. My favorite show is a live one called "Mountain Stage" which is a lot of roots music performed live. Its excellently engineered and the performances are often incredible too. My point is, I'd rather hear a great peformance than a great recording--BUT--give me both and I'm in heaven. AT the clinic, some of the best shit I've ever heard has come from Erland and his little Portastudio, a mic and an acoustic guitar. Why? Because the writing is great, fits the voice and the production, though minimal, is all it needs to communicate. Quality is not so great, but who really cares when we experience the art?

Boy, I've rambled. I'm going to keep working at it. My final belief is that a great song plus a great recording and an inspired performance (excuse my latest whisky soaked adiventure) is a worthwhile goal.

Oops....seems the station manager says I've used up all my time. he's drawing his finger across his neck and looking at me with beady eyes. I guess I'm done for tonight. :D
 
My 2 cents! Well if I was able to get a pro sound It would surely be an act of God because I am not a pro, Im not even an average amatuer. But I love making my own music and its been a part of my life since I was pretty young.
I actually look at this as a great opportunity for people who could never record what they could do before these times.
Years ago Id record with a $2 mic into a tape deck with only one single track just so Id have a record of a song I wrote. I still have most of those tapes. What absolute Junk!!:( :D :(

Now there are those here with some real talent:D and I really enjoy listening to their stuff over commercial recordings. To my ears Ive heard quite a bit that sounds better than most CD's many local bands sell. And all it takes is a few hundred $ in equipment outside your instruments and a decent computer to get this quality. Sure some folks may have spent $5,000 on various recording gear but they are in the minority here, I think.:confused: ;)

Crawdad , You ARE producing pro stuff in my eyes.
As are so many here. Theres Jeff marcomb, Sluice, Jagular, Chris harris,flat 9, track Rat, Triple m,Slackmaster, Dachay, Sjones , Jamal,stratomaster, james argo, moskus, Toki, Kramer , Teacher , erland and Many others who are producing The songs I prefer to listen to. Yeah theres Sonusman But does he create,play, and produce what he posts? IF he does thats great but I work at something totaly unmusical for a living as many of us do. Just How good was that blues compilation song from a couple weeks ago??? One of the best Ive ever heard!

Take any of these guys and set them up in a studio with whatever they need and you will hear an improvement but will the average listener pick up on it. Probably Only if somethings real bad! Im sure that the compilation CD is almost as good as any big $ CD out there But this will have loads of fresh original talent from cover to cover.

You get the jist dont you..
OOps
The operator is asking for another 2 cents so I have to go.
Goodnight
Peace To all
Bill
 
Khompewtur said:
I'll have to agree that everything said there seems to ring pretty true with me.

I belong to the strata of beginners who just haven't got the experience to add serious mixing comments, but still I like to listen to everyone's music and I think everyone here is qualified to comment on the musicality. In terms of pure production however I imagine there's only a few qualified, but if this forum was boiled down to posts by those people it would be awfully quiet in here and well.. what fun would that be :D



However, one thing that's been bothering me since I've begun posting again in the clinic. What is the deal with real kits? You may not be able to make synthetic drums appear organic to the trained ear, but still that doesn't diminish the musicality of the percussion (and still that's only 1 out of 100 listeners). When the bar is loud and crowded no one is listening for the jukebox for canned drums and when I hear an electric piano or a keyboard I don't immediately dismiss the composition because I don't hear a baby grand.

I guarantee miking live drums is a very difficult art to master, but I don't understand why it has to be mandate. I watch thousands of people dancing away in Manhattan mega-clubs oblivious to the fact that the percussion may be nothing more than a fruity loops template. Certainly in band performances you would want to have a live percussionist but so much commercial music today is not geared toward this.

Maybe I'd just like to see more acceptance of electronic percussion as "method of choice" rather than the default "inferior presentation" label it seems to be saddled with.
Click to expand...

So are you saying that people should mold their art to the tools available? I don't disagree for a second that there is a LOT of music being put out that is mostly samples. The song posted in the thread where this all started is NOT that type of music though. And most of you around here are NOT doing that kind of music.

Ed
 
I hear NEW recordings on the radio all the time (well, all the time that I can stand to) that sound like total shit. Just keep recording, you guys. I haven't seen anyone quit their jobs yet because of some delusion of grandeur. Make the music you love and use all the samples it takes you to do so.

Mixmkr was very accurate, as usual. Believe me, I think about my recording short comings at work all day. It's my passion- music. And I'm proud of what I've done and what can be done in a short amount of time with a little commitment.

Al, I was gonna do a cover of John Sebastian's Welcome Back. When i sat down and listened to that home recording I laughed at what people can get away with for production.

Ed, when you read these threads you may see things like "that sounds very pro", but you'll also see that people aren't exactly saying "Hey look at me...I stole Bob Ludwig's ears right off his freakin' skull! And now they're mine....MINE!!!" (maniacal laughter goes here). You are right, samples can be very very annoying. And when they're annoying, people say as much.

Al, goddamit...cheer up man.
 
I dunno... I suppose it all depends on what you're trying to produce. If you happen to have the unfortunate exprience of turning on MTV, you'll find that most of the rap, r&b and hip hop out there is entirely canned.... canned drums and a sound module make up the bulk of the back tracks, which, when listening to it is extremely obvious, and they're doing this shit in mega studios and selling mega product.... ....go figure....
 
This is going to be a long post...sorry :)

I have no illusions: I will never achieve a pro sound. Do I care? Nope. Is it fun to just try as hard as you can and never achieve that goal? Yep, you betcha! :)

I have no ambitions either: this isn't a dayjob for me, and I'm 100% sure it will never be. I tried to be a professional musician once, and hated the way of life. Nowadays I'm computer nerd with a good (and fun!) job and I make music in my spare time. I like this way of life a lot. But it also means I don't have much time for recording (or to educate myself). But I do have a 'creative drive' - I hear songs in my head all the time - so I choose to record them, as fast and good as I can. Mainly to calm myself. As it turns out, other people like it. Which is nice, but I don't necessarily need their responses to make music. I record it, slam it on a cd, try to sell them, or give them away (not a smart thing to do when you're still $130 in debt, but this is to show you how far my ambitions go....not very far, hehehe :) )

Also, I'm 100% sure I will never mic a real drumkit in my life. So consequently I 'disrespect music' for the rest of my life? :rolleyes: I don't think so. Did the pros who invented the triggered drumkit sound in the 80's disrespect music? I don't think so either. They did what they thought was best for music. Sound innovations move faster than light. First all digital was the bomb, then pros started to mix analog for warmth, first it was 16bit, now it's 24bit. You can't keep up with it. I rather concentrate on the music, as it's a much more constant factor. That attitude allows me to listen to crappy recorded but wonderful music. Ever listened to Ringo's drums on early Beatles records? Pros recorded that. It sounds like he's slamming his dick on a couple of paper boxes. :) It doesn't matter, it's still the best music I've heard. I even like that 'dick on a box' sound!

Further, you don't have to be a very experienced technician to hear to difference between a well miked drumkit and a V-drum set. I hear it too. I assume most of us do. But I choose not to care about it when I listen to the music that gets posted here. Why?

We're nice to each other on this board because we know everyone's limitations. We know no one around here has the right knowledge, time and/or equipment (what's the 'right' equipment anyway?), so we listen with different ears than a pro would do. Although we like to think of this board as a mixing board, we all listen with musician's ears: we listen to the music first. It's in our blood. If it touches our souls, we don't care about fake drums, 16bit or 24 bit, SBLive or Terratec anymore.

Basically, this board is about love. Yes, love :) We're a bunch of women asking their husbands whether we look fat in this or that dress...we all KNOW the truth, but we're looking for something more motivating and inspiring than 'the honest truth'...

Besides that: why does 'the honest truth' always have to be brutal and negative? Here, I'll give you my honest truth:

Music is fun, and I love you all! :)
 
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