snare or chunky ass?

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popman

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nice snare drum(tuned properly) to sm57(pointed at point of attack 1/2" from head) to digi 002 to protools 7 le, available pluggins are waves gold bundle.

can't seem to make a snare drum sound or fit in a mix nicely.
i pull up 150hz to give it thump but it has no shine, take out 550hz and it's thin, try reverb, and compression ratio 4:1.

it sounds awful!!!!
anyone with cool mixing tricks for a sore thumb snare?
and please don't post "record it right."
thank you so much for any ideas.
adam :eek:
 
120-240 is generally gonna be the low end on a snare....
crack usually sits at about 5K
and the snap from the snares themselves sit at about 10K
the ring usually sits around 900 hz

this is the "average" snare....no snare exactly like this exists..... use as a general guide....
when you eq don't solo the snare YOU WILL HATE THE SOUND
I usually hit it with at least 4:1 sometimes up to 8:1 also bear in mind where in the chain you are eqing before or afte compression.


also on some snares you can find a "presence" area around 2K or so ( some snares not all)

and time your reverb or delays to the beat....

60/BPM * 1000ms for quarter notes
divide that by 2 for eighths and by 4 for sixteenth notes


just a couple of ideas..... hope they help

Randy
 
popman said:
can't seem to make a snare drum sound or fit in a mix nicely.

it sounds awful!!!!
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, if those two things are true, "record it right" may be your best solution. Either that or re-amp it by placing a speaker upside down on the snare and feeding the track to it with a power amp.


Try moving the mic around. 1/2" is pretty close, you might try opening up the distance a bit and try some different spots until you find a sweet one.

I have been using a 421 Sennheiser and aiming it across the top of our drummer's snare about 1 1/2" in above the rim. We have been getting some meaty sounds out of it.
 
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thanks for the help. i will try both ideas.
Thanks
Adam
 
And don't say 'record it right' ?

Why not just request: Useless and unhelpful answers that avoid the actual problem only ?

That would accomplish about the same thing.
 
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the main reason i wrote "please don't write record it right" is because of what i have and the room i have. i'm certainly not a "fix it in the mix" guy. however in this situation i tried a variety of mics and the 57 worked best. i tried a variety of mic positions and found the best. i tried 2 different pres and used the best. my snare problem was in the MIX...wanted to know of any cool tricks.
but thank you for the sarcasm, your witty humor will be jotted down in my track notes under something of no use that doesn't address the problem.
Thanks
adam
 
popman said:
the main reason i wrote "please don't write record it right" is because of what i have and the room i have. i'm certainly not a "fix it in the mix" guy. however in this situation i tried a variety of mics and the 57 worked best. i tried a variety of mic positions and found the best. i tried 2 different pres and used the best. my snare problem was in the MIX...wanted to know of any cool tricks.
but thank you for the sarcasm, your witty humor will be jotted down in my track notes under something of no use that doesn't address the problem.
Thanks
adam
Click to expand...

Burn . . .
 
Popman,

I'm guessing you probably track your own music, predominantly, rather than other bands. Am I correct? Reason I ask is because your problem / question -- as well as your approach to fixing it -- is very common amongst those who don't have experience recording a lot of different artists.

The right heads ... the right tuning ... and certainly the right playing technique ... should add up to a snare track that will be easy to mix. Maybe not "perfect" right out of the box ... but it should at least be very close and in the general ballpark.

I'm sorry, but if it sounds "like chunky ass," and you're finding it difficult to mix ... then it wasn't the "right" snare sound to begin with. You're cranking the lows up and losing some "zing" in the process. You dial the mids down and it sounds thin. Sounds to me like your track is basically unresponsive to normal EQ'ing and compression, etc. These are all classic symptems that you didn't capture what you needed to while tracking. If you had, then your track would have been much more responsive to EQ and other basic mixing processes, without "losing something" every time you cut or boost something else.

Now I could probably also tell you exactly what you could have done, step by step, while tracking to avoid this ... and to give yourself something solid and more responsive to work with during the mixing phase. I've encountered similar problems in the past, and have found a solution that works 99% of the time.

But unfortunately, it's a tracking thing ... and judging from your post, you've ruled the tracking portion of things out of the equation, and are not interested at all in any advice pertaining to tracking. Too bad.
.
 
Well I know that Chessrocks response may have seemed a bit curt. But if EQing doesnt help it now .... then re-recording may be the only definitely be the better option. Although I understand how these things go and may not be possible.

I understand you have tried a bunch of combinations of mics and placement ..... but there are an INFINITE amount more. A half inch one way or the other or 5 degrees of angle to the drum can make a huge difference. Think outside the box.

I just did a session where I ended up taking the top snare mic (sm57) completely out of the mix entirely and just left in the bottom mic (md441) combined with the overheads. Made all the difference in the world. The 57 was killing and deadening the sound .... some of it phase related and but most of it was just NOT spending enough time to tweak the placement BEFORE recording.

Is there any kinda phase issue going on with the rest of the mics in your recording.???

The other obvious alternative ..... if re-recording IS an option is to use a different snare.

Tune the snare differently .... it was "tuned properly" .... to itself or to the other instruments in the song????

Or try EQing the other drums to make more space for the snare.

Or..... personal fave of mine .... run all of the drum close mics through a compressor and then float that back up unser the rest of the drum mix.
It may even out the overall sound and help bring it out ... although I think it may not be the fix your looking for specifically.

Sorry but I would have to agree that re-recording would be the best option for you by the sounds of it. But keep experimenting.

-mike
 
popman said:
however in this situation i tried a variety of mics and the 57 worked best. i tried a variety of mic positions and found the best. i tried 2 different pres and used the best. my snare problem was in the MIX...
Click to expand...
There's so much more you can try to get the right sound recorded durring tracking... Move the drum kit to a different room. Move the drum kit to a different location in the same room. Move furniture in and out of the room. Tune the drum head. Move/replace the overhead mics. Put tape/gel on the drum skin. Remove tape/gel from the drum skin.

Bottom line is there should be no problem in the mix. When you put the faders up the first time, it should sound good. I spend 2 hours or more tuning/moving/taping/padding a drum kit before I even place the first microphone to test things out. It can take a looooooong time to track a drum kit (especially if you are at home/not in a studio)...but it has to be done that way.

If re-recording is totally out of the question, go with Drummagog or some simmilar sample replacement system.
 
the song is in f#M the snare is tuned to an f#, tom 1 a#, low tom f#.
right now i'm recording 3 different bands, and doing a mix for another.
i've got a mix but i don't know how to post it here.
i ended up recording the drums again. i got the snare better but i'm not looking for the fake analog snare sound, i'm trying to make it sound real. which is what this band wants.
if anyone can post me a link i'll put the song up.
Chess, sorry for the dig.
thanks
adam
 
Tell ya what popman.
The only way to get a great snare sound .....

1.The drum itself! It has to sound awesome from the start. Tune it, re chain it, re head it, give it warm milk etc.....

2.Mic placement.

3. The drummer playing the drum is QUITE key to getting a good sound out of that perfectly tuned reheaded drum.
I could put 1 snare in front of Dave Lombardo, and the identical snare ibn front of Carter Beuford and it would sound totally different! You get the point.

4.The room that you record the drums in. You know what i mean...the big open room with wood floors, or maybe concrete, or brick, or tiLE!

5. A nice Preamp always helps. I find Api's quite pleasing for snare drum.
 
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I wasn't aware that people were tuning drum heads to notes in songs they play these days.

I think you may be looking at this in too technical an aspect. The snare and kick are the two drums I am most worried about in my upcoming sessions, and hopefully I will be able to find a placement I like in the time I have, and cooperation from the drummer (who likes his snare tune high and which sounds terrible that way).
 
you guys have been great and i will take all of this info and put it to use.
xfinstrerx you said record in
"the big open room with wood floors, or maybe concrete, or brick, or tiLE!"
i know big rooms are good becuz you need so many square feet so proper sound presure level is aquired to allow low end frequincies to be heard not to mention less reflections. Why not carpet on the floor? How do those materials (wood, tile, ect..) help the sound?
Thanks
Adam
 
first, gate the snare. and compress it or not, whatever works. then bring up the overheads. get your snare sound on the overheads and bring up your gated snare under them only enough to balance the levels. then eq it. if it's done right, the snare will sound choppy when solo'd but smooth when mixed; you won't be able to tell it's gated.

...damn i've got skills.
 
yeah i'd already done that but thanks. i think the guys are right my problem was not the mix. i was just lazy.
 
oh god...

you're not going to start down the acoustic treatment road are you?
 
well just one testimonial I probably spent $2500 to $3k building mine. I built 8 tube traps and 18 panels (gobos, wall panels, etc). it took over 6 months of building in the garage (on weekends) going back to jo-ann fabics, going back to home depot, going back to home depot, holy crap. they're nice but didn't make as much difference as you would think. except in the control room. it really helped there. but in the tracking room...eh... now I can choose "dry" over "wet" but I'm beginning to dislike "dry". and honestly the tone did not improve. It simply controls the ambience. period. not going to help you. I suggest buying mics instead.

**note: I don't know how bass traps would affect a tracking room because mine didn't have any problems to start out with.....but the gobos don't block out as much as you think and the panels actually make the drums sound worse IMO just because drums need ambience to sound good. I still have to experiment more with spacing the drums off of the back wall because I am starting to think this is the key.
 
well, i'm about to get kicked in the head but here i go. who wants to explain what the shit a standing wave is?
i know it's bad.
thanks
a
 
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