SM57 problem with piano

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pkdasilva

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Hi,

After struggling a few years, I finally got a good sound out of my acoustic piano with a borrowed SM57, when I placed the mike under the keyboard about 50 centimeters from the strings. However, the signal is really weak so that I have to amplify a lot to get decent levels, so I get some inevitable noise. Also, if I placed the microphone really close to the strings the sound wasn't that good. So my question is that is there a microphone that was little bit more sensitive (like condensator with small membrane) that would also work?

Thanks in advance! :D

Best regards & good wishes,
PK
 
This is a really great question pkdasilva. Always use what you have, and don't wait to experiment. The SM57 is a great mic, but lacks in the high frequencies (by design). Since you are probably not recording to tape, the hi bias sound of driving the tape machine wont be happening. This makes those higher frequencies more important than ever, to make a piano really sing.

You said you had to drive the SM57 really hard to get signal. What is your signal path at the moment?

As far as a different mic goes, a condenser is probably your way to go. There are million different mics, and it has a lot to do with your price range your looking for.

I am new to the world of DIY mics and mods, so I will leave your suggestion to some with better advice. I just got a pair (2) of MXL_603's with the Marik mod, and I couldn't be happier for 120 bucks. I think they sound better on my acoustic guitar than my upright though.

Also, lets see what advice people have for a cheap but good compressor for your signal path. Some of the beautiful little details of the piano come really become obvious with some mild compression. If you have an all wood room and some DPA's, maybe no compression is needed. I think for your situation, a bit of squashing to tape (computer) would go a long way.

Good luck, I am curious to see what works out for you. :)
 
I would never recommend using a hardware compressor to a newbie, and certainly not as a workaround for mic-source mismatch. You can always add compression in software, but you can never undo the damage if you decide you want it compressed less. When you have twenty years of recording under your belt, then you can start compressing while tracking---not a day before. :D

The problem, as you noted, is that the SM57 is really a terrible microphone for what you're trying to do. Inside a piano, the proximity effect of the 57 will kill you when combined with its naturally poor high frequency response. To make a 57 sound even acceptable, you ought to be several feet away, at which point the level is so weak that you need an exceptionally clean preamp to get sound that is even halfway usable.

The other problem that really jumps out at me is that piano is a very complex sound that IMHO never sounds even slightly plausible in mono---you need at least two mics to do it justice.

My advice would be to get a pair of Naiant mics and put one near the upper strings and the second one near the bass strings. This creates a rich recording that jumps out of the speakers.
 
Thanks guys! On the condenser side I had a set of Rode mics before also a borrowed Neumann (don't remember which model it was). I tried so many things, also the multimicing, lid open, from the back, above, front, EQ... No dice! Then I just thought that I should either practice more or just buy a new piano :p. But then I was at another studio recording and the guy put one mic on my right next to my knee and padded us up from all sides :D. And such a wonderful sound. OK, they tracked on a 2" studer, but anyway that's how I got the idea. At the moment I have Phase X24 FW for recording. Planning to get Revox for mixdown :). I'll try the Naiant mics when I get the opportunity, sounds cool :D. Thanks, really appreciate it! :)

Best regards and good wishes,
PK
 
Try getting a moving blanket and covering the opening whill pointing one LDC directly down to the bass strings...and pointing the SDC from the middle of the soundboard to the highest strings with both mics like 8" from the strings.

Pan left and right on 2 channels...the slant if the SDC will give the feeling of the higher strings being a bit furthur off in distance...and give you a sweet recording.

I like to run the mics through a pair of API models on my Line6 preamp.
 
Ah. This is an upright? Yeah, down below can be a good place to mic them. The reason I suggested the Naiant mics is that they are omni mics, which means you can place them closer without the sound getting boomy. In a lot of ways, it makes placement less critical.
 
Hi wow! Sorry I'm really bad with acronyms (runs in the family ;) I had to quit my telecom job because of that ;) ). What's an LDC and SDC???

Hope I don't have to wait 30 years to get the sound I want ;). If not I'll get back to you when I'm 60 ;). Yes it's an upright. I'll be getting another piano maybe in the fall (upright is all I can afford). Thanks! :D

Best regards,
PK
 
dgatwood said:
I would never recommend using a hardware compressor to a newbie, and certainly not as a workaround for mic-source mismatch. You can always add compression in software, but you can never undo the damage if you decide you want it compressed less. When you have twenty years of recording under your belt, then you can start compressing while tracking---not a day before. :D
Click to expand...

Although I agree with your recommendation on the omni mics, I have to disagree with you on the compressor.

I noticed that pkdasilva said "after stuggling for a few years, I finally got a good sound out of my acoustic piano"

This sounds like a piano owner, who has been working with it and recording for several years. I am sure he knows what he wants the instrument to sound like on playback. Compressing after the fact with a software emulator is not the same thing. It might be more than he wants to get into at the moment, but it shouldn't take more than some practice to compress to tape.

In fact, the only time I don't compress to tape is when I don't have the compressors. There are a lot of ways to use a compressor, and they range from transparent utility to sound mangling.
 
I think that was his point. There are so many ways to use a compressor that your chances of finding a good one first time out are pretty slim. Plus it adds acomplicating variable with gain staging and such
 
Hi,

OK so SCD wasn't Serious Concentration Disorder, because I have that :D. Ahh OK I get it now. Different membrane mic for bass and treble. Thanks aidan_m! To clarify posts of TomT and Big Kenny, I'm looking for kind of a firm rock piano sound with a classical twist. I've played classical concert piano earlier as a youngster, but after many years without playing I'm now learning rock/jazz style. (Boogiewoogie left hand is getting stronger every day ;)). Basically, I want to spice up my computer compositions, get feeling, more organic sound etc... It would be so nice to have everything just setup, so when needed I can hit record, jump on the piano bench and start playing... :D I'm really a newbie at the micing. And yes there are a lot of factors, but I'm sure I'll find the right setup. I guess the compression also depends really on the sound I want. I believe it's a bit different in the home studio because you setup everything for yourself, in comparison to a studio that's used by many people, don't you agree?. Thanks anyway for all the comments. :)

Best regards,
PK
 
pkdasilva said:
Hi,

OK so SCD wasn't Serious Concentration Disorder, because I have that :D. Ahh OK I get it now. Different membrane mic for bass and treble.
Click to expand...

No. Mics aren't like speakers. Small diaphragm mics are equally capable of reproducing low frequencies. Large diaphragm mics, on the other hand, often give up some ultrahighs.

If you want a rock & roll sound from an upright, pull it out from the wall (if it isn't already out in the room), put the SM57 around back, and aim the SM57 at the soundboard. Move between bass and treble sides to taste. Get a decent preamp if you aren't getting a hot enough output for whatever you need.
 
dgatwood said:
Ah. This is an upright? Yeah, down below can be a good place to mic them. The reason I suggested the Naiant mics is that they are omni mics, which means you can place them closer without the sound getting boomy. In a lot of ways, it makes placement less critical.
Click to expand...


Wont you get some damper noise like on that Vannessa Carlton record?
 
mshilarious said:
No. Mics aren't like speakers. Small diaphragm mics are equally capable of reproducing low frequencies. Large diaphragm mics, on the other hand, often give up some ultrahighs.

If you want a rock & roll sound from an upright, pull it out from the wall (if it isn't already out in the room), put the SM57 around back, and aim the SM57 at the soundboard. Move between bass and treble sides to taste. Get a decent preamp if you aren't getting a hot enough output for whatever you need.
Click to expand...

That's a great idea which I can try right away, thanks! :)

Best regards,
PK
 
darrin_h2000 said:
Wont you get some damper noise like on that Vannessa Carlton record?
Click to expand...

Damper noise is something I'm not after. ;) One thing I tried is taking the lids off. However, this raised the highs and damper noise so much that it was really the ear fatigue department... I like the wooden sound more - not glassy ;).

Best regards,
PK
 
darrin_h2000 said:
Try getting a moving blanket ...
Click to expand...

Maybe I need to get one of those. All my blankets just lay there...

I actually had decent results with a SM57 on a compact upright piano. At least I think I did- it sounded good thru the live setup, unfortunately the UPS the rig was plugged into tripped it's circuit breaker at the end of the deal and I lost my recording... damn digitals! Anyway, mic was behind the piano, pointed at middle of the piano back. But I have heard that SM57's are not the best to mic a piano.
 
phoenixlipo said:
Hi,

If you want to do some quality home recording, then you need decent microphones, and Shure's SM-57 mics fit the bill. These dynamic mics are high quality, rugged, extremely durable, inexpensive ($89), and are all purpose mics with great rejection (good for controlling leakage when recording). I would describe the "sound" of an SM-57 as full, meaty, tight, with very low noise and no distortion when recording loud instruments.

thanks,
Click to expand...

Well, he already has the SM-57 and has gotten some good results, but is looking to take it a little further. I am not sure what "tight" or "very low noise" would be referring to, but it certainly can have "distortion" like any other mic. So long as you dont overload the mic or overdrive the headroom on your pre-amp, it will not distort (most likely).

To get the nuances and air that a piano might produce in its upper harmonics, a dynamic mic that cuts off at 15khz might not be what he needs.
 
OK the tip about putting the SM57 on the back worked out nicely! I stuck it on the backside ;) and put some padding there and tested in various places. The good thing is that the strings go crisscross so there are good spots everywhere! Problem solved and I didn't have to buy anything (until my friend wants it back). WOW! :D Thanks guys!!!! :D

Best regards & good wishes,
PK
 
If you get a sound you like with the 57 but do not like the gain noise you are getting, the solution is not a different mic or a compressor. The solution is a mic pre amp with cleaner gain.

The SM57 can be a wonderful mic on piano, I have even had great result on harpsichord.
 
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