Slim, non-rack midi switching systems?

[thebigcheese]

My bassist has been insistent that I should have a bigger pedal board so I don't have to limit my options, and since he has kindly agreed to buy me a PT-Pro, I will take him up on that idea. So at any given time I could have up to 13 pedals on the board (thought 12 is more likely). Personally, I don't see the point of getting just a regular true bypass looper strip. I don't mind having to reach around the board to turn things on and off. If I am to get a switching system, I would like it to actually make things more convenient. I would like it to do channel switching and be able to wire things up with stuff in my amp's effects loop. I would also, ideally, like to be able to change the order of effects, including in and out of the amp's effects loop. Also, for reference, my amp is a Boogie Roadster.

For channel switching, I think I'm probably looking at something like the RJM Mini Amp Gizmo, unless there is something better or cheaper. That would allow me to use MIDI signals to switch channels, so I could program things to, say, switch from dirty to clean and also kick in my chorus pedal (which I currently have to tap dance for).

For foot controller, I would really like something that is long rather than tall so that it really only takes up the bottom row of the pedal board, though if it doesn't take up the whole width (about 32"), tall wouldn't be the worst thing since I can move pedals to the side of it. There are a lot of options and I really have no idea what to go for.

For effect switching, I don't think I have seen anything that will allow me to swap around the order the pedals run. And it generally seems like you need to have a couple for that many effects, which means there is probably no way to change the order of the different units. I guess the ability to change the order isn't absolutely necessary, but it would be nice to be able to experiment. Realistically, I guess I would probably find one order I like and keep things there, but sometimes I think chorus and phasers are good in front of the amp and other times they seem better in the loop, depending on the effect I want. Would be nice to be able to switch things up.

I would really like to avoid a rack, though not for any real reason other than I just like pedal boards. And also a big board was just bought for me.

Any thoughts?

 

[SHEPPARDB.]

You may need to rethink the layout. The only way to really manage that many pedals is with a switching system. Not a problem if you want to engage or disengage one at a time but, if you want to engage multiple pedals , while disengaging others, and switch functions on the amp, you will not be able to tap dance fast enough to pull it off in a live setting.
I know you say you don't want a rack, but have you considered a combo that will house your amp and provide 6-8 rack spaces above it? I used a set up like that on my last rig and it was very convenient. I used two Voodoo lab GCX 8 audio switchers and housed my stomps on two rack mount sliding shelves. I used a Voodoo lab control switcher for midi control of the switching features on my amp. On my pedal board( PT-PRO) I had a voodoo lab Ground Control Pro, as well as my wah, volume, and tuner.
One other thing to keep in mind is that most audio switchers will allow midi control over amp features that are latch switchable, but you have to sacrifice loops to do so. The control switcher allows you to switch four latching functions so you can use the loops for effects only. It is also a lot cheaper than the RJM amp Gizmo.
Having everything racked that you don't have to have on the floor will free up space for a larger controller on your board. I really liked the GCP, because with all of the buttons right there at my feet I could actually build a preset while playing live.
As far as changing the order of the pedals, I don't know of a audio switcher that will do that. With the RJM rack Gizmo you can change the physical order of the pedals(regardless of which loop it is attached to) by programming the order you want them in, but I don't think you can save the different orders as presets. If you like to tweak and experiment with the order of the pedals, the GCX 8 is a good choice. Unlike the Rack Gizmo, it is set up patch bay style. The loops are chained with 1/4 phono cables, so in stead of having to program the unit, you just take a jumper from any loop to the next one you want in the chain.
Anyway, good luck with it.

 

[thebigcheese]

I just really don't want to haul around a rack is all. I experimented with a G-System a while back and racked some effects as well as the brain, but it was such a pain to configure, didn't play nice with my amp, and there was always a slight delay when switching channels.

So let's remove the order switching ability out, since it's pretty clear to me now that no one makes that. There is the Carl Martin Octaswitch MKII, which is almost there in that it lets me switch 8 effects, which would be basically everything in front of the amp (could just do the loop stuff without it, I guess) and gives two jacks for amp functions, but since I have a Boogie, I need 4 jacks just for channel switching and one more if I want to engage my solo channel. Plus I can really only operate that on a preset basis, whereas I tend to switch individual effects in and out throughout a song while staying on the same channel (kicking in delay for one part or reverb for another, but keeping the same basic tone). So, from that standpoint, just a straightforward loop switcher makes more sense, I would just like to have it also control my amp channels so I don't need two switchers on the board. Which I could do by sacrificing loops, as you mentioned... So maybe I could get two together to play nice? Hmmmmm...

 

[SHEPPARDB.]

Where you are going to run into difficulties is finding one device that will do everything that you need it to do. The Octaswitch does not support midi, and IIRC is only capable of 8 presets.The lack of midi will be a problem should you ever incorporate pedals that allow midi control of parameters or preset switching. Without having something custom built, I don't know of any all in one floor based unit that can take care of 12 pedals + 4 amp functions.
It may be possible to use one for the front of amp effects and one for loop effects/function switching, but at that point you are nearing the $1000 mark when it comes to the low end stuff like Carl Martin, and anywhere from $1250 to $2100 with the GLAB or Gigrig devices.(new prices) And then there is the cost of cabling.
A good book that show cases a lot of what is available is "Modern Guitar Rigs" by Scott Kahn. It does not go in depth as far as rig building, but it does an excellent job of describing products and how they function.

 

[thebigcheese]

I discovered this morning that if I connect the official footswitch to the amp with a 5-pin MIDI cable instead of the normal 8-pin cable, it still controls the channel switching and the solo mode, but does not control the other three functions. Which is fine, because those are the three I don't care about. My biggest issue with the Roadster switch is that it takes up two rows on a Pedaltrain board (in fact a full half of a PT1 or PT2). I think I might be able to work something out with a custom 5-button switch connected with some MIDI cabling. I use an 8-channel Mogami snake to connect my board to my amp, so wiring up a MIDI plug to that instead of using up all 5 spare channels seems preferable to me.

I noticed Loop Master is having a sale on their 6-switch looper ($100 a pop!), so my plan for now is to run two of those (one before the amp and one in the loop) and this custom footswitch, which should only take up the lower row and half the next one up of the PT Pro. I think that should accomplish the main goal of giving me more convenient access to the switches, plus, if I hook it up right, I should be able to smack the channel 1 switch and the flanger switch at the same time, which are the only two I need to hit at once. Well, ideally also the flanger switch and the channel 4 switch, but usually no one notices if I just do a quick tap dance.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, even though I kind of went a different direction MIDI systems are certainly very nice, but they seem better suited for rack systems, and I really don't have room in my car for a rack nor do I want to haul it up the stairs at every venue we play at around here. Maybe one day I will venture out to something else...