Singing Lessons

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VirtualSamana

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I am thinking of taking singing lessons to improve my shoddy voice. Pre-puberty I was the star of many a school musical and always had the solo parts in the school choir. Once I started growing hair on my nads my range got more and more limited. I can still sing but not nearly as well as I'd like to. Has anyone takenlessons? Could you describe your experiece? Have they improved your voice?
 
THE EXPERIENCE

a typical 45 minute lesson starts with humming. After the first hum, the teacher stops you and tells you to correct toungue position . When that is corrected, she tells you to correct neck position and to visualise variouse things from an inside smile to a string from your neck to your nose.

When vowel singing begins, she tries to get you to sing up to a high C while keeping the sound in your throat . Which is basically an impossible task.

You have to make the upper and lower part of your torso try to come together while making the muscles at the side push outward. Another impossible task.

Eventually, you get to the song and you have to make sure that your A and E stays in the same place . Only that door moves.

At the end of the lesson, you are trying to make your body do about 10 different things at the same time and to the teacher you are achieving not even one.

I'm like DANG. I just want to saaing! why do you have to speek greek.

Anyhow, I think its worth it (eventually) if you have a good teacher and you keep at it long enough.

I've been studying voice for three semesters and my voice sometimes seems worse than it was when I started.
 
hah!!!

Some people think that singing teachers are like shrinks. Others say they are like witch doctors. I don't necessarily agree with these thoughts, but I certainly understand where they come from.

I have been seriously trying to sing for about 10 years. I have had seven teachers. I am only now feeling like I can actually really sing a song. It has been a long, and far too difficult road for me.

These days I am mainly interested in legit singing. I have sung in rock bands, I have also sung in shows. I now sing classical tenor songs and arias, and it actually sounds good to other people, whose opinion I value. I do not consider myself a "complete" singer, but finally I can definitely say I can sing.

My best advice will probably sound pretty stupid, but I will say it anyway. I think it applies, no matter what style you are interested in--
(a) find a really good teacher.
(b) put your complete faith and trust in that person, and that person's ears and not your own.
(c) stop practicing.
(d) stop singing (if possible).

Find a really good teacher
The first one is the hardest to do. There are bad teachers out there. Out of the seven teachers I have had, I would say two of them were bad, 3 were OK, and 2 were quite good. Out of the two that were quite good, one was a bit crazy, which didn't work for me.

Unfortunately, my very first teacher was a bad one. A nice guy. A seemingly intelligent and well meaning guy. But he unfortunately fucked me up, to an extent, so that from the start I began developing some bad tendencies.

Some people say that you should go study with the teacher of another singer whose voice you admire. To that I say: be careful. Only do this if you are certain that this person really learned what they needed to learn from that particular teacher and didn't already get into the lessons key fundamentals established-- there are lots of "name" teachers out there that are really good at marketting themselves, so they get a lot of students, perhaps even good students, but they are basically little more than sharlitans, IMO.

Most good singers, in my experience, have been at this singing thing for quite a while, and probably have had a bunch of teachers (or have learned what they needed to, one way or another). It's hard to tell where they learned what.

Another system is to choose a teacher, with your voice type, who SINGS more or less the way you want to, is a relatively mature individual who seems smart and interested in helping you, and in teaching singing in general. This has worked for me. But I realize that this may not be feasible for everyone.

I would say, be wary of "method" teachers, for the most part. I studied a "method" for many years, but still couldn't sing a song right. Also, when a method is passed from one famous teacher to an another 'associate' teacher, it can loose it's effectiveness, IMO-- because part of what made the first teacher so successfull was somethings that couldn't be passed on: ears and intuition.

My current teacher, that I am most pleased with, sings for me-- all the time-- does yours? Do you like the way it sounds?

Be VERY wary of teachers who themselves cannot do the very thing they are trying to teach you. This is a common occurance, I have found. Particularly with male teachers-- I have found a preponderance of bad male teachers who cannot sing with any reasonable range themselves, but are trying to develop the range of their male students! They end up (at least in my case)just passing on the same bad habits that ruined their own careers.

That is not to say I think that all male teachers are bad; in fact the guy I am with now is in fact, a guy, and as I have said I am very, very happy with my progress with him-- I feel like I can really sing a song!

Put your complete faith and trust in that person, and that person's ears and not your own.

Most often I would say that what sounds good to the listener will sound really bad (although I should add feel good) to you. For me, making this distinction between what it sounds like internally, and what it feels like was often extreamely difficult and I definitely needed the ears of another to do it. For instance, there is a buzzy, almost "damaged" sound that I produce in my head, that actually is "ring" when heard from the outside. Tape recording is only of limited help-- I have found. Tape recorders, especially the cheap ones usually used in vocal lessons, can lie. Not always. But, I feel I made my biggest breakthrough when I abandoned taping my lessons and just relied completely on my teacher's ears for the sound.

Stop practicing/ stop singing
Of course if you are in singing gigs it may not be possible to do this. I got this advice from a friend of mine, that was a seriosly good singer. He could sing anything-- tremendous range, big voice; sort of Freddy Mercury sound. He said that he took lessons for two years with a lady; the only teacher he ever had. He said the first thing she told him to do is what I am suggesting--stop practicing, because you will only be engraining your mistakes!

As you can see, I have some pretty strong ideas on this topic. I hope some of this helps.

Good luck,
-- Jerry
 
hey jerry khan,

I agree totally and completely with every thing you said.
Sometimes I will produce and aweful tone that sounds like there was some gurgling in there and also felt as little as a mosquito and my teacher will tell me that the sound was really powerful. Its hard to believe her. I even tell her that I dont believe her.

I practiced what I thought sounded right for a whole week only to get back to class and be told I was doing everything wrong.
MY teacher is a really good one so that problem is solved. She sang at the met for 14 years with names like pavarotti and domingo and her voice is great, but when she looses it, it becomes a hit and miss thing. In ten tries I might get the position twice.

But she has assured me that if I study it long enough , I will get it. I practice maybe 10 minutes everyday to songs by the likes of enrique iglesias(which is no practice at all). Good singers practice about at least 2 hours everyday. More like 4-5 hours.
 
Most of the advice above is pretty good.

I am still deciding if the "don't practice" thing is good advice or not! That is a tough one to swallow really. I can see some merit in a metal sense, but not in a practical sense.

Ed
 
O.K. guys, I'll toss my hat into the ring. Through taking lessons with an
extremely strong opera singer and regularly singing acapella (barbershop),
here are a few observations/principles.

1) Unless you're planning to sing grand opera, being a lead in legitimate
musical theatre production, etc. lessons are helpful though not
absolutely neccesary.

2) Most of the best pop singers come from either a church background
(singing lead in gospel for example), or acapella. "Best" is defined
here as singing ability-not necessarily fame, etc. There is no
substitute for learning to stand on your own two feet! (like Aretha)

3) Singing with other singers IS similar to improving as a chess player
by playing with other players-there is a certain collaborative
benefit by singing together (especially around better singers)

4) Trying to improve your singing by singing in a choir is like training for
a bike race using a bike with trainer wheels-it's easy to lean on the
other singers who can "cover" for you!

Of course, my comments aren't meant to be a "be all end all", simply food
for thought!
 
Just wanted to let you guys know I posted a (lengthy) postscript related
to this topic in the related thread "How about a singer's forum".
(Trying to keep that thread going until we get one!)

O.K. I can't resist adding that with all due respect to Jerry's friend's
teacher, that advice about stopping singing is nonsense.
Other than when you're sick with a sore throat, or you're straining
your voice-KEEP SINGING! The human voice in a reasonably healthy
person is engineered to function. Most improvement comes from
developing (subconcious) muscle coordination and mental focus.
All of the opera singers I met (a lot) told me that you need to be
mentally prepared to "go for it" (within reason-no straining).
Otherwise you're like the karate student who only learned to pull his
punchs, instead get ready to kick some butt! (My voice coach was also
a boxer-Golden Gloves)
 
Great Feed Back!

Chess:

- I hadn't seen your thread before regarding a singer's/vocalist's forum. Sounds like a great idea. Any progress?

Jerry:

- Thanks man. I appreciate your strong opinions. One option that I forgot to mention may be a class environment at a community college or adult school. If the teacher is good do you feel that this would be beneficial? It would certainly be more economical. Is a one on one environment absolutely necessary for improving ones skill?
 
Re: hah!!!

Jerry Kahn said:
Tape recorders, especially the cheap ones usually used in vocal lessons, can lie. Not always. But, I feel I made my biggest breakthrough when I abandoned taping my lessons and just relied completely on my teacher's ears for the sound.

I have never heard a music teacher of any kind discourage the use of tape recording. I've seen instances where teachers of wind instruments, like sax or trumpet, have recorded their students and said, "This is what you sound like. We need to focus on this part of your tone". And the differences between what you hear when you sing and what someone else hears are far more critical than brass players.

Granted, tape recorders may not produce the best sound quality, but they don't lie about whether you are singing in tune to the piano, and that is the most important aspect of singing to master.

Cy
 
Virtual, by now Dragon is probably aware of this thread (request for
singers forum). I certainly want Dragon to know how much I already
appreciate this terrific website and all the hard work he and the other
moderators must do. In the meantime I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
If I was a little farther along in my vocal technique (need at least one
more year), I'd be competent enough to moderate it myself.

A low cost way of recording yourself with excellent fidelity is by using
your VCR (especially a hi-fi VCR), there are great articles on how to do
it that right here on homerec. The result is almost CD/DAT quality!


P.S. The best way to tune your voice is in conjunction with other voices.
The piano/keyboard is good for singing scales, practicing intervals,
and learning harmony parts.
 
taking a class in college would be the most economical way to do it.

A big class will not help you. Take a class where you have 30-60 minutes alone with a teacher.

Make sure thaT she/he focuses on shaping your tone instead of just teaching you a song.
 
Another economical method is to get the books/cd's I suggested in the
"singer's forum" thread and see a voice teacher on a "as needed"
basis as you work on the material. Warm up before your lesson though,
then you won't be wasting $ on that! Use the time in a lesson to be
technique specific. It's also better for the instructor to allow you to
sing entire songs first, rather than stopping you every 5 seconds and
spending time on every little thing. That allows you to keep a sense of
the song's flow and will let you self correct things on your own.
 
Obviously I didn't mean stop practicing forever.
Maybe like, just a couple of months..

It's just way too easy to keep making the same mistakes over and over again when left to your own devices. You will need to learn to accept sensations that sound just plain wrong to
you in your head. The normal, essentially reflexive response we have to these sounds is to immediately and unconciously avoid them at any cost. To an extent, this natural aversion
presents, perhaps the most insideous challenge to an aspiring singer, IMO.

You are far better off just singing for your teacher once a week, and trying to grasp what is being said. Improvement is slow, so accept that-- good singing takes years to learn at best. No wonder, it's an art!

I adamantly oppose learning from books/CDs that promise instant results for this reason: there's no feedback loop that is so critical for learning singing, and fools like me think they can use their tape recorder to supplant it. Well, it just aint happening that way, my friend. Trust me, I tried it all: Seth Riggs, Roger Love, just about any book I could get my hands on, for years-- I was going to figure out how to sing, on my own, come hell or high water. Well, it didn't work, and I wasted years in the process.

I relate to Cyan's 'small mosquito' thing. If I were to venture a guess, I would say that he is probably well on the road to becoming, if not already, an accomplished singer. It sounds like
he is trusting his teacher, against his better judgement, and that is what I advocate. If I were to explain to you the recent breakthrough that actually allowed me to start singing songs
with any real control, I would say that it felt like a small, thin, very buzzy sound that was stuck into the roof of my mouth. In order to make this sound I find, at least for now, I need to clear my nose in an odd sort of way-- I pinch my nostrils, close my mouth and try to force an exhale, which results in my ears popping (perhaps not the safest thing to do). After doing this wierd act, I sing, and then I have to accept a much "smaller voice" that's "stuck up there" sounds "thinnner" and sort of "jacked-up" or "higher". I cannot unfortunately describe it any better than this. It definitely doesn't sound "right". Then I do a lot of humming (m and n, with mouth closed/open), trying to get the whole thing to be as buzzy as humanly possible, while keeping
that "jacked-up" placement. When I sing after a bit of this sort of thing, my teacher says it sounds good, and so does my girlfriend (who is a professional singer), so I listen to them, and
ignore the other voices in my head that say "shit!".

I could never have navigated these waters on my own, with or without a book, a CD, a tape recorder. I am sure that the next singer will have a completely different set of sensations/ procedures to describe that works for them(I've heard the descriptions "glass breaking" or "steel grinding" used by others) I think one person cannot tell another what to feel. When a superior sound is made, a good teacher will tell you so, and the student can then try to remember the sensation/procedure that was stumbled upon, and then attempt to repeat/refine it the next time. And you will miss that whole thing completely if you are going it alone with a tape recorder and your CD set.

Of course, tape recorders obviously are not completely useless. But do not be duped, as I have been, into thinking that a tape recorder can replace a trained set of ears. I have used casettes and admittedly there have been times that I was able to learn something from listening to myself. But there are other times that I think I was just fooled: sounds that seemed right
on tape were leading me down the wrong path. And there was noone there to say "stop!". I once heard a tape recording (once again, I am talking about a cheap cassette portable) of several singers performing in a number, after hearing them do it live, and in the recording the best singer sounded the worst and the worst singer sounded the best-- because relative frequencies/volumes are so erroneously reproduced on those boxes.

I am not talking necessarily about pitch problems, here. If pitch is the main problem then perhaps a tape recorder is the tool for you. I don't know about that one.

IMO, choral singing isn't all that helpful. If you must sing in a chorus, then at least put yourself in a seat where you are not "pushing" your voice one way or another. Particularly if you think you are a tenor, but aren't very proficient yet-- DON'T sing with the tenors-- you will fuck yourself for sure. Better off singing baritone or bass. Trust me, I made that mistake too. The only advantage, I believe, to being in a chorus is listening to good singers, if there are any there, and maybe absorbing some of their good technique. I am not alone in this particular opinion either. If you read any of the speech-level books (Singing for the Stars, Roger Love) they say basically the same thing:
beware of choral singing if you want to be a solo singer. It can lead to bad habits. Of course, if you can already sing well, it's a different story. Then you can do what you want.

As far as group lessons go, I would also agree w/Cyan-- you really want to focus on on-to-one feedback, with someone who's good. But if you need to save bucks I think a group lesson would probably do you better than CDs/books-- you will be a lot less likely to fuck yourself up that way, because at least someone will hear you.

In regards to being stopped every second by a teacher in a lesson, I understand the frustration. But I look at it this way: that is what I am paying for. If I knew how to do it I would be giving the lesson myself.

Best wishes to all,
jk
 
Cheeseparov,

I disagree .You can read and learn sometings without a teacher. For example, the belly-out technique

a CD will not be alert to one of up to 20 possible flaws that a person can have from the neck up. Without a teacher, you dont know when you are doing it right or wrong. I read books on singing before I started taking lesson. THey did nto help one bit.

Singing entire songs is also a very bad idea. You have to deal with pronunciation, breathing, passagios, voce in testa and a host of other things. Actually , I dont think that any teacher will let you sing a song more than once before going to the microscopic parts.


Jerry Kahn.

I tried your technique and that is the closest I have felt to "the sensation" outside of class.

I talked to a man whom I considered to have the best voice in school. HE Sings in the exclusive jazz club and the choir and also does weedings. Great voice. He told me that he had even cried once when my teacher was expecting more from him than he was delivering. That lifted my spirit.

I agree with you that trying to sing the wrong fach can cause a lot of problems. For the longest time I just wanted to be Domingo and be able to hit high Cs all day. Of course that led to grossly bad technique. Settling down to sort of a lyric baritone helped my confidence and singing.
 
Cyan, sorry if I seemed to imply that you always needed a teacher to help.
Other experienced singers have told me that doing entire songs has
helped them, and it has certainly helped me, although YMMV.

Jerry, I think there are a lot of ways to "skin the vocal cat".
I enjoy singing too much, however, to restrict that activity.

P.S. Cyan, you cracked me up when you spelled my user name
"Cheeseparov"-I wish I thought of that!
 
sorry chess.

Believe it or not I did not know that your user name was chessparov until yesterday when I was reading your posts in the singers forum thread and you said that you were a chess master.

It was only then that it struck me to check your user name to see if it was related to chess and not cheese as I had previously thought.

I always wondered why anyone would name themself cheeseparov, but chessparov makes a lot of sense. Chess for your love and parov from kasparov the master.

Sorry again.
 
No offense Cyan. Some of my opinions (or advice) are bound to be
cheesy anyway!
 
What can lessons do for you? Improve tone? Is it actually possible to increase range? By how much? Sorry for such basic, boring questions.
 
ap, your questions are valid. Lessons should provide guidance on vocal
improvement, like any other musical instrument. We are all born with
whatever level of singing ability we possess. Therefore, as singers,
we can try our best to take our present skill level up to our genetic
potential, including tone quality, and range extension.
For example, my present comfortable range of (sustainable) notes is
two octaves. An octave and half, however, is fine for most pop songs.
That's what I had when I started singing as an adult. Under the
supervision of my last (master) teacher, I was able to sustain, with good
vocal quality, a two octave and two note range! To maintain that level
of technique automatically, most people need two or three lessons
a week, and one or two hours of practice at least six days a week for
a few years (or more). Keep in mind that women tend to have larger
ranges than men too, especially important if a male is trying to cover
a female artist's song (good luck on Mariah's stuff!). Most of the time
when singers say they have a 3 or 4 octave range it's not really true.

What kind of music do you like to sing?
 
Bob Dylan, Tom Petty, Hendrix, Ringo Starr, etc.





Just kidding. Anything pop, meaning popular- not 'Pop' like Ricky Martin et. al.- from folky solo guitar type stuff, to loud rock.

Mainly I'd like to improve the consistency of my own songs, the style of which doesn't necessarily require a beautiful satin smooth voice. Seems like some days I'm really on and others it's just not happening. Also, sometimes I come up with a melody that I have to later alter because it's a little out of my range, either too low or too high. I have noticed that my upper range has definitely increased slightly in the last couple years, and I've never made a conscious effort. I didn't think it was possible.

Generally speaking, how much can the average person increase their range, and how long does it take?
 
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