Singing lesson for different genres...

  • Thread starter Thread starter James Argo
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Here is my take on this. Many common techniques with posture, breating, etc. will help you with all forms of singing (providing it is singing, It won't do squat for rap) However there are techniuqes for inflection, phrasing, tonality and pronumciation that if you applied them to pop will have you singing pop like it was opera or opera like it was pop.

What I understand is that humans, even with training, have a two and a half octave range plus or minus only a couple of notes. Beyond that some simply have a less strained sounding fasletto.
 
I don't know.... I think Innovations is pretty much right. Some people have three octaves. Any more than that, and I am suspicious of the person interpretting their falsetto, or head voice, range with "real" range where the sinus cavities, the palette, and the chest are all vibrating. Thinking of it this way, three octaves = the lowest note on the guitar (low E) all the way up to the first string at the twelfth fret. That in itself is one hell of a range, and I'd like to see anyone do more.

Chris
 
Gee...
This thread seems get far from my original question :D
But sure it's interesting :) And I've seen a light undirectly by reading those replies :)

BTW, have a look at those Indian singer (I mean Hindi as Asian, not American Indian :D ). Look at their movie... there's always be a song sung somewhere in the middle of the movie by Hindi women. Rather really high octave as I hear. Was that falseto ? how did they do that ? And looks like every Hindi singer could sing that way :eek: I'm not sure where am I gonna go with this, but you have the idea, right ? :D

;)
Jaymz
 
Don't get it wrong, brutha... :D

I'm NOT Indian, not even been there before, not in the plan to move there, not even trying to marry Indian girl. Nor wanna sing Indian song. They are just an example here :D I just wan't to have the ability of singing higher octave smoother similiar like 'em :D I know there's hidden wisdom you guys don't mind to tell me :) And I thank you for that :)

;)
Jaymz <-- newbie singer :D
 
dafduc said:
My vocal prof touched on the Mariah thing last week - she said there IS a female falsetto, sometimes called "white voice" - like the male falsetto, it's produced with a different set of vocal cords. Most women don't or can't use them, but it offers some freakishly high notes. In the dog frequencies. So I'm pretty sure that's what's going on with Mariah, and with Minnie Riperton before her...

Daf (gonna ask her about Bel Canto this week)
Click to expand...

There are two sets of folds to the vocal chords.

What Mariah C does is enter what is called a "Whistle voice" or a "whistle register", it is LIKE Falsetto, but it's a bit different.
All voices work in the same manner, male & female alike. I have a friend who has studied Opera for over 30 years ( She's 46 - and a Coloratura - which is that highest "bell like" voice that you hear in Opera). I took lessons from her, but she finally gave up because I wouldn't quit smoking cigarettes....so she got me in the best shape that she could.
I finally quit smoking 3 weeks ago, and just now got my chest and head voices to meet again (my voice broke when I tried to go through teh registers here, because I smoked a pack and a half of cigarettes a day for about 17 years.)

Celine Dion is just stretching her chest voice for those long held out notes.

The Key to singing is that you have to learn to ALLOW the sound to come out of you, not to "make/push" the sound out of you. ...and that will include changing your diet so that you can get your body to produce as little phlegm as possible.

As always, I suggest the "Rock N Roll Singer's Survival Manual" by Mark Baxter. Great book. Get the video as well. The two together will cost your about $40 and it will be the best investment that you've ever made.


Tim
 
Innovations said:
What I understand is that humans, even with training, have a two and a half octave range plus or minus only a couple of notes. Beyond that some simply have a less strained sounding fasletto.
Click to expand...

Nope.

In Falsetto, you have no control over the dynamics.

there are essentially 5 registers: Here they are from highest to lowest:

Whistle (Mariah C)
Falsetto(King Diamond)
Throat/Head (should be your normal speaking voice)
Chest (sounds similar to throat and head but with much more resonance)
What I have only heard called "Vocal Fry"
(Deathmetal anyone? It's that "I want to sound like a harmonizer dropped an octave" effect.)


I was taught that Bel Canto has totally to do with breathing, and it is where you never "stop" breathing....you don't "pause"....

Think about it for a minute:

take a breath and exhale -did you pause for a second before you exhaled? If so, you have to condition yourself so that you don't "pause" before you inhale or exhale. You should breathe in and out in a cycle that never ends... you don't "hold your breath" to hit notes.


Tim
 
Last edited:
I agree with some of your points.

i dont really agree with this.....

"In Falsetto, you have no control over the dynamics."

Purely for the fact that i think i do..............


please explain.



I wholeheartedly agree with this.........

"The Key to singing is that you have to learn to ALLOW the sound to come out of you, not to "make/push" the sound out of you."

y
 
Interesting thread...

Almost without exception, when people are discussing range, they're including falsetto for males, or "whistle tones" for females.

Every time I've taken a "3 octave (or more :)) wonder" by a good
'ol piano they're lucky to have a PRACTICAL range of around two octaves for guys, and a couple more notes than that for the gals.
Don't count the grunts and shrieks at each extreme of the spectrum, falsetto, whistle tones, etc.
The good news for us guys is that our voices tend to sound more
resonant and have more "depth" than the gals so that compensates quite well.

When operatic voices are classified, it's generally expected that the males will have a comfortable range of two octaves and a note, most of the other female voices the same, with the exception of the highest soprano singers. The idea is that if you're not feeling well, having an extra note or so of "insurance" will lead to a more secure performance.

My voice coach almost fell off his piano stool one day when I PROPERLY sustained a high A flat as a baritone. That's not an easy feat for an experienced operatic baritone. Then we tested it further, felt the highest comfortable note for my voice would be tops a B flat-so stayed a baritone rather than tenor.

Chris
 
As long as you maintain healthy singing habits, your approach will certainly change with each genre.

That's why even though Domingo is a terrific tenor, he doesn't cut it for me when he sings Broadway Show tunes, standards, etc.
Popular music is meant to be conversational not orchestral.

Chris

P.S. If anyone if looking for a world class instructor in the
Los Angeles area, they should contact "The Pelayo
Vocal Arts Studio". They're located in Panorama City
(also called North Hollywood) and are in "the book".
Dr. Pelayo is a tremendous dramatic baritone.
 
Tim Brown said:

I was taught that Bel Canto has totally to do with breathing, and it is where you never "stop" breathing....you don't "pause"....

Think about it for a minute:

take a breath and exhale -did you pause for a second before you exhaled? If so, you have to condition yourself so that you don't "pause" before you inhale or exhale. You should breathe in and out in a cycle that never ends... you don't "hold your breath" to hit notes.


Tim
Click to expand...

Not exactly, but it may depend on which "interpretation" of bel canto that you are referring to. The cornerstones to the Bel Canto technique are the "inhalation of the voice," the "hold of the breath," and the mask of the face.

Inhalation: The sound is actually drawn in from outside the body, with a stream of air hitting the hard palate, and passing over (not through) the vocal cords, and into the sinus cavities. As the air passes over the vocal cords, it creates a difference in air pressure, much like when a truck passes by and pulls everything along with it, and draws air up from the lungs as it passes over. The air that is drawn up from the lungs passes through the vocal cords, creating the sound. The inhaled breath bouncing off of the hard palate creates projection, and the air going into the sinus cavities provides resonance. Caruso wrote (quoting roughly), "sing as if continuing to take in breath."

Hold of the breath: The diaphragm is pulled down in order to take in breath, so that there is adequate air to be drawn up from the lungs. With as much air in the lungs as possible, there is a strong "foundation" on which to support the breath. As a result, the goal is to (roughly quoting again) "maintain the diaphragm as if holding one's breath." Air WILL escape from the lungs, as if it doesn't, no sound is produced. A more controlled amount from the lungs (minimal) will allow for more contol overall, and a stronger foundation will result in a more "supported" sound.

Mask of the face: This is pretty widely used in many techniques. Essentially, the higher notes are wide across the cheekbones, and the lower notes are in the bottom point of the inverted triangle, which puts them just in front of the lips and very narrow.

Chris
 
chessparov said:
Interesting thread...

Almost without exception, when people are discussing range, they're including falsetto for males, or "whistle tones" for females.

Every time I've taken a "3 octave (or more :)) wonder" by a good
'ol piano they're lucky to have a PRACTICAL range of around two octaves for guys, and a couple more notes than that for the gals.
Don't count the grunts and shrieks at each extreme of the spectrum, falsetto, whistle tones, etc.
The good news for us guys is that our voices tend to sound more
resonant and have more "depth" than the gals so that compensates quite well.

When operatic voices are classified, it's generally expected that the males will have a comfortable range of two octaves and a note, most of the other female voices the same, with the exception of the highest soprano singers. The idea is that if you're not feeling well, having an extra note or so of "insurance" will lead to a more secure performance.

My voice coach almost fell off his piano stool one day when I PROPERLY sustained a high A flat as a baritone. That's not an easy feat for an experienced operatic baritone. Then we tested it further, felt the highest comfortable note for my voice would be tops a B flat-so stayed a baritone rather than tenor.

Chris
Click to expand...

Hi Chris, When I am talking about there being "5 ranges", those are not "octaves" per se, what I am talking about, is there are 5 sections in your voice where breaks/cracks take place, and they take place because you're trying to stretch the range below, into the next range, instead of learning to move into the next range.
In other words, you have to learn to thin out your vocal chords to move up into the next range.

For example, when I was smoking cigarettes I had almost no "head/throat" voice - it was either all chest, or all falsetto, with a big chunk missing in between-because my vocal chords were so inflamed from smoking that I could not sustain a note in that range - I would literally start hacking and coughing.

Now that I have quit smoking, I can start at the highest note I'm comfortable with, and smoothly descend to my lowest.
I'm still working on ascending, because the meajor brak in my voice was at the low end of my throat/head voice.
I do most of my singing in my chest voice, but I do want to be able to hit much higher notes for screams.




Tim
 
Chris Tondreau said:
Not exactly, but it may depend on which "interpretation" of bel canto that you are referring to. The cornerstones to the Bel Canto technique are the "inhalation of the voice," the "hold of the breath," and the mask of the face.

Inhalation: The sound is actually drawn in from outside the body, with a stream of air hitting the hard palate, and passing over (not through) the vocal cords, and into the sinus cavities. As the air passes over the vocal cords, it creates a difference in air pressure, much like when a truck passes by and pulls everything along with it, and draws air up from the lungs as it passes over. The air that is drawn up from the lungs passes through the vocal cords, creating the sound. The inhaled breath bouncing off of the hard palate creates projection, and the air going into the sinus cavities provides resonance. Caruso wrote (quoting roughly), "sing as if continuing to take in breath."

Hold of the breath: The diaphragm is pulled down in order to take in breath, so that there is adequate air to be drawn up from the lungs. With as much air in the lungs as possible, there is a strong "foundation" on which to support the breath. As a result, the goal is to (roughly quoting again) "maintain the diaphragm as if holding one's breath." Air WILL escape from the lungs, as if it doesn't, no sound is produced. A more controlled amount from the lungs (minimal) will allow for more contol overall, and a stronger foundation will result in a more "supported" sound.

Mask of the face: This is pretty widely used in many techniques. Essentially, the higher notes are wide across the cheekbones, and the lower notes are in the bottom point of the inverted triangle, which puts them just in front of the lips and very narrow.

Chris
Click to expand...


That was why I was talking about laying on your stomach to build the diaphragm.
Because you hold the diaphragm down while continuing to breathe.
I was taught to hold a Tennis ball under my arms, and hold them tightly against my chest...then breathe.
By holding the balls against your torso, it forces your diaphragm to stay low so that your lungs can completely expand, and contract without the diaphragm forcing the air out of your lungs.
You don't even need the Tennis balls to practice, you can just hold your arms at your side an press down on your diaphragm and hold it.

That is how I was taught (hold the diaphragm low, and use the cyclical breathing), and that is also the technique promoted by Vocal Therapist Mark Baxter as well.

http://www.voicelesson.com/home.htm



Tim
 
Thanks for the effort at clarification, however, I do already fully understand the difference between "register" and "octave".

Before taking lessons with Dr. Pelayo, I had a male falsetto (alto) voice that was close to being a dead ringer to Russell Thompkins of the Stylistics, but Pelayo made me stop that. The Old Italian Bel Canto School is very much against using it, as it thins out the voice, and can potentially damage it.
That ended my days forever as having a four octave+ range! :)

Chris

P.S. The CORRECT way to extend the range at the top is by
learning to develop a falsettone-very different from
falsetto, and also called a "mix" in legit singing.
 
ahhhhhhh yes i have heard of something like that b4 chess.

can anyone clarfiy what defines an alto / baritone / soprano etc. ?????????

just curious.



y
 
Those classifications can be somewhat arbitrary, especially for pop music. Generally speaking (or singing!) it goes;

"Bass" is around E above middle C, then two octaves below that.
(less often down to low C or below)
"Baritone" around G above middle C, then 2 octaves below that.
"Tenor" around B flat above middle C, then 2 octaves below that.
(rarely up to high C or above)

The female ranges of Alto/Mezzo-Soprano/Soprano fall about an octave above the male, with more females being able to sing a high C or above than their male counterparts.

Their are further subdivisions with each voice type mainly based
on whether a voice sounds more "lyric" (melodic) or kick ass (dramatic).

Chris
 
smellyfuzz said:
zer0sig;
What band are you on the web-site, I like to give a listen.
Click to expand...

i have never posted a recording on here, because they're old and shoddy (i still have a lot to learn, but have learned quite a bit since my last recording in early 2002), but a url with 10 mp3's that are just me and an acoustic guitar is http://207.14.235.4/zer0sig - i welcome any feedback, though, as you were lamenting, i, too am a rank amateur at really capturing it. i don't think i use more than about 2 octaves of my voice on those recordings-i'm hoping to record some better examples soon. in any case, give me whatever feedback pleases you. i know some of the recordings were done on off-days, and they were all done in single takes (1 take on guitar and 1 take on vocals), so they're bound to be kind of shoddy. my A4 (i think it's A4) fills a room with standing waves, so on that cover of alice in chains' "love, hate, love" i actually ended up sitting back a few feet from the mic AND holding a baffle (a cd case) in between me and the mic so as to not peg the meters too badly. i think i need a compressor, maybe some new mics, and a lot of mic technique practice!
 
zero, I'm not set up for MP3 (yet), however, here are some things that mayhe
help;

1) Get a good compressor like the Fmr. Audio RNC.
www.mercenary.com sells them for under $180.

2) Typical starting places for a cardiod dynamic mike is 6 inches away.
If it's a large diaphram cardiod condenser try 8-10 inches away.

3) Come visit the microphone forum on this BBS when you want more help.

Chris

P.S. A generic setting for vocals and acoustic on a compressor is a 2:1
ratio, with the threshold set at -10, and about 3 to 6 dB of signal
reduction.
 
Anyone up for hearing a great voice ?

Listen to Zerosig.

AWESOME VOICE. !!!!!!


Sean.
 
sean,
thanks! i've relied a great deal on how i feel while singing, which covers some of what real lessons teach, though i'm hoping to refine it somewhat.

chris,
duly noted. i will have to experiment more with mic placement/etc, especially now that i have somewhat better equipment. i'll be glad, btw, to help you set up proper mp3 playback on your machine if you desire.
 
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