Singer/Strummer Separation

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jolt

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I'm recording a singer/acoustic strummer onto 1/4" 8 track. Getting an acceptable sound with an SM57 on the guitar, SM58 on vocal (both could be better, as per my question in the mic section) but I'm getting more guitar in the vocal track than I would like. I'm not completely stoopid--there's gonna be plenty of bleed in this situation. I understand. But are there any tricks besides separate tracking to reduce the problem? A particular mic, maybe one of those dog collars to keep dogs from scratching their ears :p , some kind of trick I haven't thought of to help reject some guitar signal?
 
I've got the same problem -- Help! The guy is an incredible musician, but does his best work if he plays the guitar while he sings.

I was wondering if there were particular ultra-directional mikes that could help -- but I really want to capture the excellent sound, so I don't want to compromise here.

I was also thinking about building a panel to slide in between his guitar and his voice, parallel to the ground.

Help! Thoughts?
Thanks,
-lee-
 
A panel might be more cumbersum and distracting. More directional mics would be a better choise. I understand that's the only mics you have so I would only suggest you point the vocal mic up towards the singer and away from the guitar and the guitar mic angled down towards the guitar and away from the vocalist.
 
Get lots of foam and isolate that guitar, the panel idea over the box end of the guitar is good . On the vocal mic try making a foam megaphone type collar to go around the back of the mic. The mics you have are as about as directional as you can get.
 
or you could....

Have him play an electric guitar through an acoustic simulator, and send the direct signal to his headphones. This will be much less noticable on the vocal track.

It may sound great, or you could over dub the acoustic later,\.

Dom:p
 
"Get lots of foam and isolate that guitar, the panel idea over the box end of the guitar is good ."
Philboyd -
You're a pro - Have you ever used a setup like this? Are you talking about covering a panel with foam? Any design ideas?
Mic bleed is the bane of my existence!

Bob
 
Vocal/guitar Bleeding ... Try this:

I would strongly suggest you did NOT use any kind of collar on the mic. Using a collar like that will strongly effect both the freq resonse of the mic and it's pickup pattern.

Polar patterns are interesting things ... Most people don't realize that if you block off the botton half of the ball on a cardiod mic (such as a 58), the pickup pattern quickly approaches omni. The vents from the rear on any directional mic are critical to it's proper use. Don't fool with them. =)

Also, for most players a divider between the voice and the guitar would be (as someone said) awkward, and I could see it really taking away from the performance. The people I've worked with doing guitar and vox together were already a little put off just being in the studio ... The more crap you stick in front of them, the more apprehensive they become. That's been my experience.

The best bet is to mic vox and gtr as closely as possible without getting boomy. Then point the mics away from the other source as ,uch as you can.

The setup that I live by (at the moment, anyway) for simultaneous guitar and vox is this:

1 C1000s on the neck end of the guitar, pointed in towards the body a bit and at roughly 45 degrees downward, away from the performers mouth.

Another C1000s on the other end, pointed towards where the performers pick or fingers are hitting the strings. This one is also roughly 45 degrees downward.

Record these 2 in stereo.

For the vox, a good large diaphragm condenser of choice, put as close the singer as possible (use a pop filter!) and pointed slightly upwards toward the mouth.

Tweak to taste.

This a very simple yet VERY effective setup. There are many many other setups I'm sure, but this is truly one that works.

Of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
 
laptoppop said:
I've got the same problem -- Help! The guy is an incredible musician, but does his best work if he plays the guitar while he sings.
Click to expand...

i find this extremely hard to believe.
 
It is very true, fenix. The reason? In most cases, it's because that's what they're used to. If they wrote and have rehearsed the song while singing and playing, to separate that would be unnatural for the performer. If they're really struggling doing both, then it would be wise to record them separately. But if they got it down and are nailing the performance consistently, why mess with what's working?

One guy I worked with (Richard Bienvenu, a very talented musician) really could not have tracked his guitar and vox parts separately without major headache. He likened it to pedaling your bike with only one foot. Not natural.

Of course ... that's just my opinion ... :p
 
It's all about spontaneity. Record your singer/player live, and then do it as a vocal overdub. Listen to the results. The "live" recording will have more life to it, and it will sound more natural, as Gabriel said. Richie Havens springs to mind - the guitar and voice are integral.


Bob
 
I have no interest in arguing performance or recording philosophy <i><b>but</b></i>......one <i>could</i> say that all tracking is downright musically unnatural. For me, the best of all worlds would be musicians sitting in a circle playing and singing with magic cones of silence providing 100% separation. Until I invent this, I'll settle for compromises. I like what I've read here and I think I can do my next session with much better results.
BTW--I never envisioned putting the collar on the mic. I wanted to put the collar on the singer. :cool: Think of it--could be the start of a new look and a new technique!:cool:
 
oh, and btw--the idea of recording with electric guitar is a good one except that we have tried some of the songs w/ tele just for a change of pace and, as any guitarist can attest, just the feel of playing an electric lends itself to a different musical vibe,even if you could get a good acoustic simulation. As a different approach, yes, as a substitute, no.
 
Use a 57 for vocals also. It has a tighter pattern than the 58.
 
Hmmm ... I'm not so sure about using the 57 for vox. People might want to argue this, but the 57 and the 58 use the same capsule. The difference, obviously, is the breath screen. the ball of the 58 induces much more 'proximity effect' (bass boost at close distances) than the 57. Using the 57 on guitar, you are able to mic it closer without getting too boomy, which for me is always a concern miking an acoustic.

I'd suggest getting even a cheap pop filter (or make one with the foot of a pair of nylons stretched over a wire bent in a circle) and stick it in front of the 58 for vox. Then point the 57 downward and inward towards the guitar, as close as you can get while maintaining your desired sound.

If you can scrounge the money for a condenser mic or even two, you'll be AMAZED at how much better your tracks will sound. At this point I'd like to plug the AKG C1000s (again), or the R0DE NT3. Both can be had for $200 or less. I've seen deals where you can get a pair of C1000s's for $300. Both work very well for acoustic guitars and ... well heck, they work for almost anything.
 
Gabriel - Thanks for the great advice!

I was concerned about the sound isolation panel being distracting/annoying.

I'll give your miking arrangement a try next session - should be around the middle of March.

Thanks again,
-lee-
 
I tried to accomplish this for many months,with Harveys ever kind and patient help.

Now I just double track against a scratch track of vocals and acoustic together.
Works pretty good.

If you really want to record them together,you either have to use multi directional mics with the nulls set right or a supercardioid on the vocals.

Since your using a 57 and 58 you might look into a Shure Beta87A,or the Neumann KMS 105.
They will give you much better rejection on the vocals.

Hope this helps,
Pete
 
Thanks.

I'm sorely tempted to buy a V67---not specifically for this project--just on general principle. It just seems like a good thing to have and use. I'm wondering, though, regarding this project if this isn't going in the wrong direction. Yes, I expect that it will sound a bunch better as a vocal mic, but will it provide less separation than the 58? OTOH, if I implement some of the ideas here, the result might be rewarding.
 
Maybe a different approach...

hmmm ... Let's start at the root here:

Exactly how much separation are you trying to achieve? Why do you feel you need to maintain such a high degree of separation? Is it an effects thing? Or are you just getting too much guitar to 'tape' and not enough vox?

What I mean is, you're recording a guitar being strummed by a vocalist who is singing; there should inherently be a natural balance with that arrangement. You should be able to get adequate separation with the mics you have, although they aren't ideal (transducer-wise) for the application (I'm not doggin - I too am on a budget).

One thought I had would be to create an mp3 (or multiple mp3s) of the tracks your laying, so some of us can listen and relate your results to the results we have managed in the same situation. Maybe we could tell you how much more separation you can realistically achieve.
 
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