Singer + Acoustic Guitar: How to comp/correct voice and guitar tracks afterward?

[DM60]

To each his own, and there are obviously plenty of people who agree with you. Carry on

If you get everything correct in one take, then you are right. But usually when recording and when you are creating an original, that is not always as simple as is sounds. I don't think any disagrees with you, but there is this thing called reality, you are going to "F" it up. By separating the two, just makes it easier.

But yes, getting the perfect take with the vocals and guitar would be optimal approach.

 

[Tom Overthere]

I mean, you could try recording two or three takes in a row (so all the mic placements are the same and whatever) [...] Then you can comp both instruments at the same time, rather than fixing just one or the other. Still doesn't help with the problems bleed will give you trying to add compression or other processing, though.

That's some excellent thinking there, Ashcat. I will try what you suggest. As long as I play to a click track it could work out, though I agree about the compression and other FX. I have a decent outboard 2-channel compressor, so I can do most of that while recording, which should lessen the need for VST compression added during mixing. Thanks a LOT for the suggestion.

The only snag is this part, "and just hope you don't fuck up in the same place twice."
LMAO!
Man, it sounds like you know me! HA!

Too Good! Thanks.

 

[chuckduffy]

If you get everything correct in one take, then you are right. But usually when recording and when you are creating an original, that is not always as simple as is sounds. I don't think any disagrees with you, but there is this thing called reality, you are going to "F" it up. By separating the two, just makes it easier.

But yes, getting the perfect take with the vocals and guitar would be optimal approach.

I never said anything about perfect and my stuff is so far from perfect it hurts. What I said was 'solid performance' and 'great live take'. We musicians who also happen to record, unless we are engineers who happen to write songs. Either way works, but I hardly consider my advice 'bad' or worthy of a facepalm.

 

[ashcat_lt]

The only snag is this part, "and just hope you don't fuck up in the same place twice."
LMAO!
Man, it sounds like you know me! HA!

No. I know me.

I do this myself, and it's the advice I kind of give everybody even when there's no bleed at all. I don't like copy-pasting, and I don't really love trying to fly the second chorus from take two in to the first chorus of take one and crap like that. The ideal is of course to have one good take of the whole thing straight through, but if we can't get that, I'd like to have as few cuts as possible, and to be replacing like with like and all that.

This is partly because I feel very strongly that even "repeated" parts of a piece should be at least subtly different from one another. The second time might be a little more complex or aggressive, or the fills might be a little different, or whatever. Almost more important, though, is that if you actually play the whole thing through, rather like trying to punch from a cold start, or even a two bar pre-roll, you will be more likely to be in the same spot - actually playing the same notes with the about the same dynamics, with the same strings ringing out or whatever - and it makes it easier to comp it together without actually hearing the edit.

 

[BOZO56]

I sing best while playing acoustic guitar, but I play the guitar better when not singing. So I need to go back and comp/correct both parts.

I'm in this case as well, I sing best when playing, anyway, that's how it feels, but...
For a clean, separate recording, you have to do different takes.
The problem is, that the guitar, played alone, doesn't make place for the voice when needed the same way as when you play and sing in one take.

So what I do now, is do a first recording while I play and sing along, keeping the guitar low in the recording (actually the voice mic picks up the guitar and that's all you need) Then I record the guitar, while listening to my own voice (I always use a click while recording with a tempo track, it also helps you know when to start.) When I add the guitar track(s) to the voice this allows me to adapt my playing to the voice, otherwise I'm always doing too much.
Then I mute the first voice recording and sing the song again along with the guitar recording, and it can help when you hold the guitar on your lap to give you the same "feeling" as when you would be playing the guitar while singing.
I have tried severals things, and 100% separate micking is impossible. Hope this can help.
Marielene

 

[MISteve]

Do you have a couple of decent mics that will work in figure 8 mode? If you do figure 8 will give you the most separation. Instead of me explaining it all to you, google "recording voice and guitar figure 8". Second best choice is 2 good super cardioid mics.

 

[Tom Overthere]

I'm in this case as well, I sing best when playing, anyway, that's how it feels, but... For a clean, separate recording, you have to do different takes.
The problem is, that the guitar, played alone, doesn't make place for the voice when needed the same way as when you play and sing in one take.

YES!

Marielene ==
I'm honored to be the beneficiary of your very first post in this forum. Thank you, and welcome.

I agree completely with your point: playing guitar while singing causes the guitar volume, attack and general approach to "duck" (to lessen, lower, reduce in energy) to make space for my vocal parts. It happens very naturally, so naturally that I never thought of it in those terms before - but of course, you're absolutely right(!). ANOTHER NEW INSIGHT!

Brainstorming these ideas is very, very helpful! Thanks for the excellent post.

So what I do now, is:

1. do a first recording while I play and sing along, keeping the guitar low in the recording (actually the voice mic picks up the guitar and that's all you need)

2. Then I record the guitar, while listening to my own voice (I always use a click while recording with a tempo track, it also helps you know when to start.) When I add the guitar track(s) to the voice this allows me to adapt my playing to the voice, otherwise I'm always doing too much.

3. Then I mute the first voice recording and sing the song again along with the guitar recording, and it can help when you hold the guitar on your lap to give you the same "feeling" as when you would be playing the guitar while singing.

 

[DM60]

I never said anything about perfect and my stuff is so far from perfect it hurts. What I said was 'solid performance' and 'great live take'. We musicians who also happen to record, unless we are engineers who happen to write songs. Either way works, but I hardly consider my advice 'bad' or worthy of a facepalm.

I gave a smile, not a facepalm.

 

[Tom Overthere]

I gave a smile, not a facepalm.

The facepalm was mine, but it wasn't in reference to your comments, Chuck. It was me making fun of myself in saying, "PERFECTION...why didn't I think of that?" Sorry for any misunderstandings.

And it looks like it was me who uttered the word perfection, too. For the record, I have nothing but respect and regard for anyone who takes time to post helpful advice in response to my thread. So no harm intended, and the only "bad actor" here appears to be ME. LL! The story of my life...

 

[DM60]

The facepalm was mine, but it wasn't in reference to your comments, Chuck. It was me making fun of myself in saying, "PERFECTION...why didn't I think of that?" Sorry for any misunderstandings.

And it looks like it was me who uttered the word perfection, too. For the record, I have nothing but respect and regard for anyone who takes time to post helpful advice in response to my thread. So no harm intended, and the only "bad actor" here appears to be ME. LL! The story of my life...

It's all good

 

[chuckduffy]

The facepalm was mine, but it wasn't in reference to your comments, Chuck. It was me making fun of myself in saying, "PERFECTION...why didn't I think of that?" Sorry for any misunderstandings.

And it looks like it was me who uttered the word perfection, too. For the record, I have nothing but respect and regard for anyone who takes time to post helpful advice in response to my thread. So no harm intended, and the only "bad actor" here appears to be ME. LL! The story of my life...

No problems here. I misunderstood. That's the way the internet works

 

[Tom Overthere]

No problems here. I misunderstood.
That's the way the internet works

Too right! I'm glad all is well.

 

[andrushkiwt]

Don't agree with the advice at all. A great live performance acoustic and vocal shouldn't need any editing at all. Practice until you get it right. Vocal bleed isn't going to matter one bit of the performance is good.

Chuck

Yeah, for live shows...not recording. Depends how clean, smooth, and "perfect" he wants the takes to be. The bleed becomes a problem if you want to compress the vocal differently than the guitar, or most other processing techniques for that matter. You can't EQ the vocal to taste with the guitar in the same track. You can practice for years on end and still something will go "wrong". There's no shame there. Be realistic.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Yeah, for live shows...not recording. Depends how clean, smooth, and "perfect" he wants the takes to be. The bleed becomes a problem if you want to compress the vocal differently than the guitar, or most other processing techniques for that matter. You can't EQ the vocal to taste with the guitar in the same track. You can practice for years on end and still something will go "wrong". There's no shame there. Be realistic.

There isn't one universal right answer. It's entirely possible that a more live performance will yield a better result. Some bleed isn't a deal breaker for using compression. I do it all the time.

All this anxiety over which method to use could be solved in an hour by some experimentation by the OP. The internet seems to be encouraging people to overthink stuff. Just effing do it.

 

[Tom Overthere]

There isn't one universal right answer. It's entirely possible that a more live performance will yield a better result. Some bleed isn't a deal breaker for using compression. I do it all the time.

All this anxiety over which method to use could be solved in an hour by some experimentation by the OP. The internet seems to be encouraging people to overthink stuff. Just effing do it.

For the record: I'm the OP and I'm not overthinking, I'm just thinking. Something I try to do every day.

And no anxiety at this end, though YOU seem to be fraying a bit around the edges. If this thread aggravates you, there are lots of other threads... And just so I'm sure to meet your high standard, I have been experimenting.

Gee, I thought everyone in Boulder was "mellow"... Not so, even with legalized dope.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Dude, relax. It's not necessarily your anxiety I was talking about. Posters seem to be attached to particular techniques without really knowing what fits your needs.

My suggestion is to record voice and guitar live to a click track, then go back and punch in (or comp) both tracks wherever there's a mistake in either one. If you have a fairly dead space to record in and you optimize your mic placement this can work well. If the bleed is a problem you can call them scratch tracks and replace them one at a time, but, as you know, this changes the nature of the performance. You may have reasons not to do it like this, which is fine with me. Why would I care?

Your impression of Boulder is decades out of date. It's expensive so people have become selfish and pushy, and a lot more conservative. I moved out of the city to a smaller town in the county.

 

[andrushkiwt]

...I'm not overthinking, I'm just thinking.

I say this at least once a week. Someone asks a question and suddenly they're "overthinking" something. Good Lord.

In any event, Boulder is right about there not being one way. Try em' out and see what's most comfortable. Share the result, if you'd like, in the mp3 clinic when finished. I'd like to hear it. good luck

 

[chuckduffy]

I say this at least once a week. Someone asks a question and suddenly they're "overthinking" something. Good Lord.

In any event, Boulder is right about there not being one way. Try em' out and see what's most comfortable. Share the result, if you'd like, in the mp3 clinic when finished. I'd like to hear it. good luck

+1 - I do find that sharing in the clinic is a great way to get to the bottom of stuff