Shure SM57 swivel head ? (why?)

[RAK]

maybe its a swivel head because........

the Sm57 is know to be "bulletproof/indistructable".........most mics heads screw off normaly to take the head off for whatever reason. Maybe shure made it swivel to make it HARD to get the head off......and to keep idiots like myself from pooking around inside and damaging it!

That was my initial reaction too, and it seems you're pretty much correct.
Please see my following post

 

[RAK]

What I've learned from my colleagues

Here is what the response I recieve:

"The design has been like this since the 1960's. As the grill is plastic, threads would be a problem as the grill could be overtightened and then crack. Threads also remove material from the plastic and make it more fragile.

The chosen design allows the use of a plastic grill that cannot be removed or over-tightened. The "downside" is that it rotates and that confuses some customers.

As the original designers of the grill are retired or dead, we may never have an accurate answer."


Also, it was also pointed out to me that apparently the proper term for what it does is "rotate" not "swivel"

I hope this is what you've been looking for.
Probably as good an answer as we're going to get on this issue.

Also, in the future, feel free to e-mail/call customer service with questions like these, or check out our knowledge database on the website. They should answer you the same way they answered me.

 

[RAK]

Sigh. Yes. Depending on your definition of "entirely".

For instance, they both use .5 inch diaphragms based on the Unidyne III.

And the SM7b is currently being advertised by many retailers as a large diaphragm microphone, which it is not. And as a result many people believe that it is.

I'm not sure I can state it much clearer than that.

I suspect that Shure tacitly allows this practice, or at least does not go out of their way to correct it. My theory is that it is to their marketing advantage to allow people to think they are getting a large diaphragm mic, so they avoid talking about diaphragm size on all their published specs. This is only a theory, and I could well be wrong. But the whole situation seems a little suspicious.

I didn't mean to imply you didn't know the difference, but you might be suprised (or not) how often those two get confused, so I wanted to make sure. I just mean they're entirely different based on intended use and physical apperance.

While I cannot speak for retailers, Shure only refers to it as a dynamic microphone on the website and in the user guide. Maybe retailers are refering to the larger enclosure. Anyone know if a EV RE20 ever gets reffered to as a large diaphragm mic? Just curious.

If you e-mail the retailer, or even Shure cust. service, you might be able to get an answer.

 

[RAK]

Are the SM7 and SM57 identical?

http://shure.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/s...SZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PXNtNw**&p_li=&p_topview=1

I know this doesn't answer your question as to why retailers advertise the way they do, but this from the Shure page about the difference between SM57/SM7. As you accurately stated above, they are similar.

 

[littledog]

RAK,

Thank you for your answer. Are you saying the RE20 is NOT a large diaphragm mic???

What would make things much clearer is if ANYWHERE on the Shure website or on the published specs it simply gave the size of the diaphragm instead of tap-dancing around the question.

When I asked point blank, the answer I got was: There is no precise scientific definition of what a large diaphragm is. Let's just say the diaphragm is larger than an SM81 and smaller than a Beta 52.

What is so hard about just saying: ".5 inches"?

 

[RAK]

RAK,

Thank you for your answer. Are you saying the RE20 is NOT a large diaphragm mic???

What would make things much clearer is if ANYWHERE on the Shure website or on the published specs it simply gave the size of the diaphragm instead of tap-dancing around the question.

When I asked point blank, the answer I got was: There is no precise scientific definition of what a large diaphragm is. Let's just say the diaphragm is larger than an SM81 and smaller than a Beta 52.

What is so hard about just saying: ".5 inches"?

I would say that the RE20 is a large diaphragm mic. I was just wondering if it gets advertised as such. Didn't mean to be confusing. I guess I've never thought about a specific definition (dimensions) of large diaphragm versus small diaphragm. If there is one out there I'd be interested to know it.

The reasonings for publishing certain specs is far from my department, so I don't know the answer to your last question. I'm curious though, did you try to ask the retailers who advertise this way?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

RAK,

Thank you for your answer. Are you saying the RE20 is NOT a large diaphragm mic???

What would make things much clearer is if ANYWHERE on the Shure website or on the published specs it simply gave the size of the diaphragm instead of tap-dancing around the question.

When I asked point blank, the answer I got was: There is no precise scientific definition of what a large diaphragm is. Let's just say the diaphragm is larger than an SM81 and smaller than a Beta 52.

What is so hard about just saying: ".5 inches"?

Well, "large diaphragm" (as applied to condensers anyway) is usually taken to mean 1" or larger (with a "fudge factor" that would allow a 7/8" to also be considered "large"). Anything less than that was usually considered a "small diaphragm", but these terms basically applied to condenser mics only. Size is directly related to output in condenser mics, so size is a good thing to know.

Less so with dynamic mics, since output is also determined by magnetic gap strength, voice coil size and length, suspension, and pattern design. Diaphragm size is a factor, but not as big as in condenser mic design. Where you have the bulk of the weight located closer to the middle of the mic can cause serious diaphragm flexing in large diameter dynamic mics, not a good thing.

Size IS a factor in dynamic mics, just far less of a factor than in condenser mics.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I would say that the RE20 is a large diaphragm mic. I was just wondering if it gets advertised as such. Didn't mean to be confusing. I guess I've never thought about a specific definition (dimensions) of large diaphragm versus small diaphragm. If there is one out there I'd be interested to know it.

The reasonings for publishing certain specs is far from my department, so I don't know the answer to your last question. I'm curious though, did you try to ask the retailers who advertise this way?

I have never seen the RE20 advertised as anything other than a cardioid dynamic with no reference to capsule size. It is very rare to see dynamics advertised with reference to their capsule size.

There is no formal definition for "large" or "small" capsule as far as I know, but in general, "small" tends to be around 1/2" (12-15mm) or smaller, with "large" being around 1" (~25mm). Anything that falls in-between is subject to the marketer's creative license, depending on what attributes they want to emphasize in their sales pitch.

In General - exceptions and debates abound - Smaller diaphragm mics of both condensor and dynamic will, by way of basic physics, want to have higher self-noise and wider frequency response whereas larger diaphragms will tend to be quieter but have slightly narrower frequency response.

Where condensers and dynamics tend to differ, though, is in the ability to handle high SPL; in dynamics the larger diaphragms tend to handle higher SPL better whereas in condensers, it's the smaller diaphragm ones that tend to handle louder SPL better.

Also, LD dynamics tend to have better off-axis response then smaller ones do.

It's for these reasons you see a lot of LDDs used on stage, in broadcast applications, and for loud or amplified instruments; e.g. SM57, SM7, RE20, MD421. But they are rarely advertised using the "large diaphragm" buzz phrase. I can only guess at a reason; maybe it's because they'd then be too easily confused with LDCs? I dunno, just a guess there.

G.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Here is what the response I recieve:

"The design has been like this since the 1960's. As the grill is plastic, threads would be a problem as the grill could be overtightened and then crack. Threads also remove material from the plastic and make it more fragile.

The chosen design allows the use of a plastic grill that cannot be removed or over-tightened. The "downside" is that it rotates and that confuses some customers.

As the original designers of the grill are retired or dead, we may never have an accurate answer."

The other problem is amortizing the cost of the body and head over the life of the microphone. It costs money to come out with a new design, so Shure tries to use existing parts whenever possible when creating new models.

Every company does this whenever possible; it's cost effective.

Look at the castings for the Shure 55, all 3 models and their 556 - same castings. Thet used the rotating head grill on several of the early Unidynes before the 57. It's a very clever, cost-effective way of holding the grill in place.

I love cheap, effective solutions to problems.

 

[RAK]

I have never seen the RE20 advertised as anything other than a cardioid dynamic with no reference to capsule size. It is very rare to see dynamics advertised with reference to their capsule size.

I've never seen it either, which is why I was wondering which retailers he had seen advertising the SM7b as LDD. I was just curious about it.

It's for these reasons you see a lot of LDDs used on stage, in broadcast applications, and for loud or amplified instruments; e.g. SM57, SM7, RE20, MD421. But they are rarely advertised using the "large diaphragm" buzz phrase. I can only guess at a reason; maybe it's because they'd then be too easily confused with LDCs? I dunno, just a guess there.

G.

Did you mean to put the SM57 in the same class as the RE20/MD421? I don't think those are the same capsule size. The enclosures are certainly bigger anyway.

Harvey, The 1" rule sounds familiar now that you mention it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[boingoman]

Hey RAK, thanks for tracking a reply down.

 

[RAK]

You're welcome Boingoman.

So here's something taken from the user guide of the EV RE20:

"Large Acoustalloy diaphragm and low-mass
aluminum voice coil"

So in a sense they call it a large diaphragm mic.

On to the Sennheiser website next!

 

[RAK]

An excerpt from the Sennheiser site about the MD421II. This is on the main product page:

"The large diaphragm, dynamic element handles high sound pressure levels,"

 

[RAK]

this might not be very scientific but...

http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/live-sound/microphones/buying-guide.php#4

"Understanding Microphone Diaphragm Sizes"

Just happened to do a google search and this came up. Sweetwater actually speaks to 3 categories: small, large, & medium (gasp!)

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Did you mean to put the SM57 in the same class as the RE20/MD421? I don't think those are the same capsule size. The enclosures are certainly bigger anyway.

Nope you're right, my mistake. I'm so not used to typing "SM" without throwing a 5 in afer that

As I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, the 57 and the 58 use a 5/8" diameter cartrige, which techniclly is just a tad larger than "small", but certainly not the 1" we're used to in "large".

I've heard it said before that the 7 also uses the same cartrige as the 57 and 58, but it's just a radically different surrounding mount, but I don't know that to be true or false.

G.

 

[RAK]

Nope you're right, my mistake. I'm so not used to typing "SM" without throwing a 5 in afer that

As I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, the 57 and the 58 use a 5/8" diameter cartrige, which techniclly is just a tad larger than "small", but certainly not the 1" we're used to in "large".

I've heard it said before that the 7 also uses the same cartrige as the 57 and 58, but it's just a radically different surrounding mount, but I don't know that to be true or false.

G.

http://shure.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/s...SZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PXNtNw**&p_li=&p_topview=1

This was the link I posted on the previous page. It's an answer on the Shure website about the differences between the SM57 and SM7.

You're definetly right about the radically different surrounding mount on the SM7, which is why I was thinking it might be described as an LDD.

 

[littledog]

RAK:

You seemed to have answered part of your question about which other mics are advertised as large diameter.

If you want to see who mis-advertises the SM7b, just Google it and look at a number of retailers who are selling it.

 

[RAK]

RAK:

You seemed to have answered part of your question about which other mics are advertised as large diameter.

True. That's why I posted it.

If you want to see who mis-advertises the SM7b, just Google it and look at a number of retailers who are selling it.

I just thought since you said you've seen this with the SM7b, you could tell me where you saw it.

 

[tarnationsauce2]

Thanks for tracking down that response RAK.
Seems like a sensible answer to me.

 

[RAK]

no problem