metalhead28
Hates Raymond
What was "needlessly offensive" about my post?
metalhead28
Hates Raymond
I was only trying to illustrate that fast playing is only a different flavor, and there's no reason to limit yourself to just one.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
isn't that what I said?Even that is debatable - a lot of that solo is pretty staggeringly technical even when it doesn't sound it. That ascending arpeggio/slide sequence from around 3:56 is quite a bit more technical than it sounds, even before 4:09 when it sounds like he's really speeding up and showing off a bit. But, even then, the technique always serves the music - that picked run right before he returns to the main melody is both blisteringly fast but also is incredibly emotionally intense the way it pretty much explodes into that high screaming note at the end. Still, your conclusion is spot on.
Didn't I say about a minute of it was shred?
I just don't think labels work for music and a lot of misunderstandings occur because people lock into a label and then can't look beyond it.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
Well ..... did you listen to the song beagle posted?
I'm absolutely sure you'd have to admit that you finally heard a shredder 'play something'.
As for the rest, I understand your position. I feel that way about a couple of the old sax superstars. As a sax player, I listen to Coltrane and it rarely does much for me ....... just endless sheets of notes. I hear shit in there that, to me, he only gets away with because they're so fast everything's a passing tone and it doesn't matter if they actually fit musically or not.
Parker too although I can't deny their technical skills, their musical choices leave me unimpressed.
Well, you're absolutely right, of course. Music is entirely arbitrary and so is all art.
I'm not close-minded to that ...... in college I was really into avant garde stuff and I still like it although I'm not as interested in getting as worked up as listening to cacaphony makes me.
And I actually see the point of say, Yoko Onos' ideas in art and sound.
However, I think there can be such a thing as bad art. Yes it's all art because art is defined by the artist ...... it becomes art when someone declares it to be.
But I don't think that it automatically becomes good art.
When I say someone sucks balls, it'll NEVER mean I think the style of music sucks ..... just his performance of it.
I think we would broadly agree that basic music rules such as being in tune or playing in time ( a very broad thing there since you can really play all around the beat for different feels) or playing notes that aren't catastrophically dissonant with each other are requirements a musician should meet if he's to be considered 'good'.
Of course, even that can be debated but if you're someone that feels absolutely no rules whatsoever should apply (a position that I could accept as valid depending on my mood) then really ...... any manipulation of sound is music.
I can listen to really out there stuff and enjoy it ...... really ..... but I admit to having a hard time with players who suck balls.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
The tone of contempt for the other side of the coin. Implying that people who like "feel"-y guitar and ONLY feel-y guitar are pansies who sit home and listen to lame daytime made-for-tv sappy dramas because they can't handle the excitement playing faster would bring is just as contemtous as claiming that people who are into shred are soulless machines who can't appreciate "real" music, and have less discriminating taste than, say, B.B. King fans.
metalhead28
Hates Raymond
You're trying too hard to be neutral and reading too far into what I'm saying.
I've already said several times that a lot of shredders are soulless machines that make terribly uninteresting music. No news there.
However, there are "feel" guitarists who can shred, and there are "shred" guitarists who have feel. I only criticise those people who close their mind to that possibility.
(and above all, I would think that the playful nature of my posts would be obvious....)
famous beagle
Well-known member
Why is that the hardest job? Says who?
Why isn't devoting 10 hours a day for years and years practicing your craft, such as many classical musicans must do, not just as hard of a job?
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
and what are 'feel' players gonna win?
It's not a contest ...... there's no victory to be had.
It's all opinion and taste and personal preference.
It's not a contest ...... there's no victory to be had.
It's all opinion and taste and personal preference.
famous beagle
Well-known member
Good point! He talks about songs not being races, yet he's saying feel players are going to win.
hmmm
lpdeluxe
The Precision Bass Guy
Fight amongst yourselves, guys. I've expressed how I feel -- not who is is better, not who will gain the kingdom of heaven by their musicality, just how I feel. Apparently others feel differently. Go for it.
famous beagle
Well-known member
Well ... at least be honest. You have said what is "better." You did that right off when you said "the good stuff goes over the shredders heads" and "feel players will win in the end."
If you want to bow out, that's fine, but at least own up to what you said.
darrin_h2000
Banned
Well there is a good reason more people know who Clapton is than Malmsteen.
D
dodgeaspen
New member
Who could add anything to that? I feel exactly the same way. I think you need to feel the music flowing through you to be able to convey a feeling. But I guess if you are a shredder and do it with feeling that's cool to. They do have a cool thing going on themselves.
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
it depends on what definition you have for "shredder"
I define a real shredder as someone who is in complete control of his tuning, tone, rhythm, the key of the song, the feel of the song, his fingers, his pick strength, his vibrato, anything that has any technical bearing o nthe ability to play the part in question.
It is EXTREMLY important to bear in mind a Venn diagram type of thing when thinking about this. A shredder can play ANYTHING a feel player can, by definition, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
It bears repeating: A shredder can play anything a feel player can, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
Too often the feel excuse is used when you are on the 85th take of "oh but you should see how good we are live" guitar around the ankles douchewad
Every shredder I've ever recorded was capable of expressing MORE emotions than the "feel" players, because they can more easily put on tape the sounds they are hearing in their heads
Apply this kind of thinking to any other discipline in life " man I don't want that heart surgeon to work on me, he knows what he's doing. That other guy says he feels like he could do it, I'll get him to cut me up"
Every feel player out there that has ever expressed what he was feeling, in a way that was comprehensible is a "shredder" when it comes down to it
I define a real shredder as someone who is in complete control of his tuning, tone, rhythm, the key of the song, the feel of the song, his fingers, his pick strength, his vibrato, anything that has any technical bearing o nthe ability to play the part in question.
It is EXTREMLY important to bear in mind a Venn diagram type of thing when thinking about this. A shredder can play ANYTHING a feel player can, by definition, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
It bears repeating: A shredder can play anything a feel player can, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
Too often the feel excuse is used when you are on the 85th take of "oh but you should see how good we are live" guitar around the ankles douchewad
Every shredder I've ever recorded was capable of expressing MORE emotions than the "feel" players, because they can more easily put on tape the sounds they are hearing in their heads
Apply this kind of thinking to any other discipline in life " man I don't want that heart surgeon to work on me, he knows what he's doing. That other guy says he feels like he could do it, I'll get him to cut me up"
Every feel player out there that has ever expressed what he was feeling, in a way that was comprehensible is a "shredder" when it comes down to it
Milnoque
Resident Curmudgeon
When I'm playing lead I'm all about feel and melody. My whole goal is expression. But, on many nights, I still can't find a morsel of real soul and I have to resort to a toolkit of what worked in the past. Mostly the audience doesn't differentiate. I can masquerade as a "feel" player pretty successfully on a bad night, but to be honest, on a night like that there's no more actual soul in my music than the most sterile sounding shredder you ever heard. On the other hand, a good night, it doesn't suck to be me.
Sometimes John Mclaughlan a can break my heart. Sometimes he just impresses me. Sometimes I find him boring as shit. It can be the same piece of music. It's about where my head's at.
Sometimes John Mclaughlan a can break my heart. Sometimes he just impresses me. Sometimes I find him boring as shit. It can be the same piece of music. It's about where my head's at.
mshilarious
Banned
That's only because Satriani didn't get to play in the movie
I don't mind shredders. I am suspicious of the tired blues licks guys. Those are tired licks. How about attempting something Coltrane tried, maybe, in 1958? I mean music has progressed slightly since the 1930s . . .
But the dudes I actively hate are the shredders who try to hit a "perfect note" when they have no clue what that is. I mean, they've got me all impressed with their shredding and then they go and stink it up
Also, guys that can't or won't do a proper vibrato, that really annoys me.
In short, I am the G.O.A.T!
ausrock
Well-known member
"Shisysia,' says Indira, 'let me hear the scale please.'
Lola sees her left hand on the fingerboard, her right hand holding the plectrum. 'Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, Ni,' she sings as the sarod goes up the scale.
'Stop,' says Indira before Lola can come down the scale. Lola waits in silence to be told what she's done wrong. 'This instrument in your hands is not a machine gun,' says Indira. 'You are firing off the notes like bullets and your singing is without heart. Even the smallest act, even the tuning of the sarod, must be done in the proper spirit of devotion. Let yourself always be the true vessel for the music that comes through you. Move your mind away from all bad thoughts, let it be clear and peaceful. The scale again, please. Not so fast this time. Listen to the sounds that are coming from you.'
Lola tries to clear her mind. She can't do it. Her mind is a kaleidoscope of sounds and images. She tries to bypass these as she goes up the scale again.
'What I hear is tension,' says Indira. 'Put down the sarod. For the rest of this lesson we'll do breathing exercises."
(A quote, courtesy of Dobro at RecordingProject)
Lola sees her left hand on the fingerboard, her right hand holding the plectrum. 'Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, Ni,' she sings as the sarod goes up the scale.
'Stop,' says Indira before Lola can come down the scale. Lola waits in silence to be told what she's done wrong. 'This instrument in your hands is not a machine gun,' says Indira. 'You are firing off the notes like bullets and your singing is without heart. Even the smallest act, even the tuning of the sarod, must be done in the proper spirit of devotion. Let yourself always be the true vessel for the music that comes through you. Move your mind away from all bad thoughts, let it be clear and peaceful. The scale again, please. Not so fast this time. Listen to the sounds that are coming from you.'
Lola tries to clear her mind. She can't do it. Her mind is a kaleidoscope of sounds and images. She tries to bypass these as she goes up the scale again.
'What I hear is tension,' says Indira. 'Put down the sarod. For the rest of this lesson we'll do breathing exercises."
(A quote, courtesy of Dobro at RecordingProject)
S
solaris1982
New member
Zaza is my new Idol. And I found out that he owns a studio less than a mile from where I used to live!
Personally, as far as the debate goes for me, there's certainly places for both. Melody is important. Flair is important too. Depends on what the song (or even the specific part of the song) calls for. I don't think it's really possible to paint a whole house with one paintbrush, ya know?
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I don't really buy this either. All styles require practice to perfect. If a guy NEVER plays anything but shred then he's not gonna be able to somehow instinctively know how to play a good soul ride for instance. I happen to know a couple of shredders, one of which has played with a few 'major' metal bands and he can't do anything but shred. Clearly he easily could do so if he wanted to practice other styles but he's really not interested and that's cool but he's absolutely a trainwreck playing other styles.
But it reinforces my point that labels are meaningless. The very best musician can play all styles. Often guitarists that are known as shredders have a background that may include jazz and classical.
I just can't go along with the idea that playing a particular style of guitar makes you inherently better as a musician.
Light
New member
They're all wrong, and most of them are assholes. Or at least they are idiots. The guy who's worth listening to is the one who has a style of his own. He could be fast as shit (well, at least some of the time), or he could be all about feel, but whatever he's (or she's) doing, it's their own.
The BEST players are the ones who can do it all. Take Reeves Gabrel - best known for the Bowie stuff, of course, and he frequently did the shreder thing there, but I've also seen him strap on an LP Junior, and spend the night playing old school bluesy rock - without ever once sounding like SRV, Jimmy Page, or Eric Clapton, by the way. (Google "Modern Farmer" - fucking awesome band, sadly no longer around.) Or Pat Metheny - he'll play fast, slow, or anywhere in between, but no one on the planet has his phrasing. I swear he must grease his strings, because his playing is slippery!
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
The BEST players are the ones who can do it all. Take Reeves Gabrel - best known for the Bowie stuff, of course, and he frequently did the shreder thing there, but I've also seen him strap on an LP Junior, and spend the night playing old school bluesy rock - without ever once sounding like SRV, Jimmy Page, or Eric Clapton, by the way. (Google "Modern Farmer" - fucking awesome band, sadly no longer around.) Or Pat Metheny - he'll play fast, slow, or anywhere in between, but no one on the planet has his phrasing. I swear he must grease his strings, because his playing is slippery!
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi