Shredders vs. "feel players" - an observation

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famous beagle

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I'll preface this by saying that I'm closer to the "feel player" camp, but I do enjoy playing fast at times (or trying to) and I do think it can have its place.

You know the situation all too well. Someone posts a clip of themselves shredding on youtube. Before too long, the "feel players" come out in droves with comments like:

What a load of sh*t!

Music is about emotion, not gymnastics!

[insert name here] can do more with one note than you can do with 3,000!

You suck!

There's 20 seconds of my life I'll never get back. Thanks!

etc. etc.

Occassionally, you see someone stand up for the guy and say "Don't listen to these naysayers. You rock man! Keep it up!" or something to that effect.

But I just realized, you hardly ever see the opposite. (At least I don't.) When someone posts some bluesy or jazzy playing, you don't see all the shredders post comments about how much the blues guy sucks because he can't play fast or because he's only playing in one position on the neck or whatever.

Why is that you think? Why are feel players such haters when it comes shredders?

Discuss
 
Most of the time it's just because they can't do it. :D



However, there are a lot of players who only want to play fast and they do indeed have terrible feel, terrible rhythm, terrible phrasing, no vibrato, no intonation, etc....and they'll show off their "chops" as if they're fehking virtuosos. That is annoying.

But there are also snobbish dipshits who make fun of players who obviously have all of those things in spades - but perhaps play a little too fast for their tastes. Those are the jealous assholes.

They can carry on about how much they're not jealous. But that just continues to prove how jealous they are.
 
I think the good stuff goes right over the heads of the shredders. It's like a guy who's addicted to Playboy Magazine but doesn't have a clue about how to establish a relationship.

You understand, I'm an old guy, and I've seen too many guys whose only claim to fame was that they could play really fast -- never mind that they couldn't express the emotion in a song. Once you can play really fast, what's next? Playing really really fast? And then what?

Music isn't about operating a machine. I don't even think of myself as a guitar player (or a Dobro player, or a harmonica or bass player, although I have gigged on all those instruments over the years): I'm a song player.

And songs aren't horse races. If you don't understand that statement, I imagine you're on the other side of the debate.

But we "feel" players will win in the end, as the shredders mature and come to realize that there's meaning buried in the music, and the hardest job is to put it out there where everyone can feel it.
 
But can you at least admit that there are plenty of guys who can shred, but also have terrific feel and all of the other things that make for a great musician? The two things are not mutually exclusive.
 
I don't see it as a contest myself. I see amazing players of both types and terrible players of both types. If we're gonna go by youtube videos, then I've seen way more bad players of both types than good ones. And I see an awful lot of 'feel' players that suck balls.

But the best players of either style are gonna respect the skills of a good player of any other style.
I also don't believe in the labeling as if you're only one or the other. The best players I know can do some of each.
I suppose if I HAD to be labeled then I'm more of a feel player but I can play plenty fast when I need to and at jamfest, after seeing metalheads blazing speed, I've started working on shredding type skills and I'll use those just fine in a blues or jazz or country type gig. They'll be useful licks ..... I just have to make them fit the different styles.

Lastly, I see PLENTY of shredder types ridicule 'feel' players dissing them for playing 'tired old blues licks'.
The criticisms go both ways but personally, when I see a player dismiss skills of a different style of music as 'sucking', then I know he's just a limited player in his own skills and ability to be open minded musically.
 
But can you at least admit that there are plenty of guys who can shred, but also have terrific feel and all of the other things that make for a great musician? The two things are not mutually exclusive.
my point exactly. It's like some old dude saying that a carpenter that uses nail guns instead of a hammer is a shitty carpenter.
It's just different tools.

All these licks are is tools to play music with ....... the more tools you have, the better you can do your job.
 
Well, thanks Metalhead and Lpdeluxe for so neatly camping out in both corners of the debate...

Personally, I'd LOVE to attribute it to "feel players are just jealous" and "talking about how important 'feel' is is just an excuse for not practicing," but it's obviously not that simple. I've basically got at least one foot in the "shred" camp, but all the same I totally agree that there's something to all this talk about "feel."

At the same time, again as a player with one foot in the shred camp and another sort of out in the Gilmour/SRV/Jimi land of things, comments like LPdeluxes just piss me off. Just because a guitarist is technically accomplished doesn't mean he can't play with feel, yet so many guys who make posts like that on guitar boards or slightly-less-argumentative comments like that in the real word just automatically close down their ears when they hear someone play a faster run and think, "oh no, this guy's a 'shredder,' he's obviously a machine with no soul!" That's completely nonsensical. How much "feeling" you put into a solo is completely unrelated to how fast you're playing notes - I've heard my share of machine-like closet shredders, but I've also seen and heard some incredibly heartfelt, emotionally moving guitar performances that just happen to rely on blazing technique, and I've also seen my share of guys playing "feel" blues lick solos where it's pretty damned obvious that they're playing a bunch of memorized licks, and making grimaces so we think they're playing with "feel." They're not - it's a paint-by-numbers approach to soloing, and it has nothing to do with how fast (or, in this case, slow) they're playing.

"Feeling" and "technique" aren't two sides of the same spectrum - they're totally unrelated. A blistering alternate picked run can add a sense of tension and emotion to a song just as much as a long edge-of-feedback sustained note - the guys who've impressed me the most are the ones who can do both. They're just two different textures or colors in your pallate, and if you're trying to take the listener to a certain place or paint a picture with a lead break, then obviously it's stupid to limit yourself to just one.

I'm not sure why you have fewer "shred" players bagging on guys playing slow, feel-y solos. They're certainly out there, though they're much rarer. The optimistic part of me would like to attribute it to the fact that there comes a certain maturity with the sort of dedication to ones' craft that's required to build up shred-worthy technique, but that's probably a load of bull. And I don't know if "jealousy" is necessarily fair, either - maybe it's something as simple as a guitarist is presented with a staggeringly impressive technical performance, and then immediately needs to justify it to themselves why they don't want to spend the time learning how to do that. Who knows - either way, shred guys are certainly lightning rods for criticism. :p

I think it's worth recalling a conversation I once had with a guitar instructor I studied under in college. He was a hell of a player, but was more of the blues, jazz, and acoustic school, while at the time I made no secret of the fact I was an inspiring shredder (the picture's a little more clouded today, but whatever). We were talking about Joe Satriani's then-new album, "Engines of Creation," and in particular his solo on "Until We Say Goodbye," which to this day is still one of my favorite lead breaks. His comment, and I'm paraphrasing, was something that I found very interesting and has stuck with me ever since: "A lot of guitarists rave about guys like B.B. King and Carlos Santana for hitting "that perfect note" and just holding it. That's definitely cool, but with those guys, that's all they can do. With someone like Joe Satriani, he can do that too, but when you hear him do that it 'means' something a little different because with him you know it's a choice."

It's also worth pointing out, in a completely different direction, that the REALLY over the top stuff (think Rusty Cooley) exists for a totally different reason than, say, Jeff Beck, or even Satriani. Technique taken that far is just FUN. You don't listen to it for his subtle, tasteful melodicism - you listen to it because, holy shit, look at all the crazy things that guy can do to a guitar. I'd never play a Rusty Cooley album for a nom musician, whereas something like Satriani's "The Extremist" or Buckethead's "Colma" or Niel Zaza's "Staring At the Sun" are things that I have played in the past for a lot of my non-guitarist friends, and they've loved them. So, the question then becomes, for the truly over the top stuff, who's got it worst? The shred guys who appreciate a good technical display for what it is, no more, or the 'feel" guys who take themselves so seriously that they can't appreciate the humor and the element of fun that comes with something that patently absurd?

EDIT - and here's the one that blows my mind the most. Again, take Rusty Cooley. Go out and youtube some of his Chops from Hell lessons if they're on youtube, or if not maybe his "Betcha Can't Play This" lesson. You'll find all those "feel" players out in droves lambasting his playing for being "all technique, no feel," and somehow missing the point that what they're watching is a lesson recorded entirely to display and teach technique. How is that even possible? :p
 
The next time they drag out the "Most Overrated Guitar Player Ever" thread see who gets dissed the most. It'll be overwhelmingly about Clapton, Santana, Hendrix, etc. Those are the guys who played those "tired old blues licks" when they were new. It really does go both ways.
 
The next time they drag out the "Most Overrated Guitar Player Ever" thread see who gets dissed the most. It'll be overwhelmingly about Clapton, Santana, Hendrix, etc. Those are the guys who played those "tired old blues licks" when they were new. It really does go both ways.

Though, to be fair, it's also because they're three of the most famous players ever. You never see guys like Francisco Ferarri, Tom Kopyto, or even Cooley out there, because who the fuck ever has heard of those guys? Or, even on the other side of the coin, how about Albert Cummings, for the contemporry blues crowd? Brilliant player, who I'd be shocked if more than three or four people here will have ever heard of.

Meanwhile, every fourth grader can tell you Jimi Hendrix is one of the greatest guitarists to ever live. Is he rated? Of course he is, even Jimi (who's hands down my favorite electric blues player, that Jimi: Blues compilation is absolutely brilliant) can't live up to what it means to be Jimi.
 
The next time they drag out the "Most Overrated Guitar Player Ever" thread see who gets dissed the most. It'll be overwhelmingly about Clapton, Santana, Hendrix, etc. Those are the guys who played those "tired old blues licks" when they were new. It really does go both ways.
yeah it does ..... the funniest thing I'm seeing in this thread is the idea that 'feel' player rag on shredders but not the other way around. I see 'hate' threads on Clapton, Hendrix and Santana all the time.

I say that ANY player that rags on a good player of a different style is, at best, close minded musically and not that great a player himself.
I bet BB King doesn't say shredders are shit. I'd bet that he'd say, wow ..... that's some amazing chops ..... and Satriani isn't gonna rag on Ry Cooder.

Good players respect good players regardless of style.
 
Well, thanks Metalhead and Lpdeluxe for so neatly camping out in both corners of the debate...


I think I might take offense to that....:confused: :D

I'm not one of the guys who makes fun of "feel" players. The jealousy comment was just my way of taking a shot at the pretentious assholes who turn their noses up at any sort of playing that doesn't appeal to them personally - and call it garbage. "The good stuff goes over their heads"....you know, things like that. :rolleyes:

I think when your more humble "shredder" type listens to a player who really has some feel - and I mean real feeling in their playing, not just the single note grimacing stuff - they can appreciate it, and if they can't play like that, they wish they could. And a good "feel" player would be the same way in reverse.

I'll be the first to say that a lot of guys focused on shred are not very compelling musicians, I don't want to listen to them . But as I said before - the two things are not mutually exclusive. A lot of people have both.
 
Music isn't about operating a machine.

Well, unless you're talking about a cappella vocal music, then yes it sure is.

You have to have at least some facility on an instrument to be able to play music.

I know what you're saying and all. I'm most accomplished at guitar, but I also sing, play some keys, play bass, play a little drums/percussion, and write songs/compose music. I think of myself more as just a musician or multi-instrumentalist if you'd like.

But who's to say when you've developed too much technique?

Take a solo like Steve Vai's "For the Love of God," for example. To me, that solo is dripping with emotion. I honestly don't see how someone can argue with that. It's got some very fast playing, but it also has lots of melody, and all of it is played as if his life depended on it, IMO. It's triumphant, sad, tragic, sweeping, pointed, and incredibly cathartic sounding to me.

If you don't know that song, I'd ask you go listen to it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1fLW-DS8Q

Just listen to it, because the video is pretty cheesy, and if you can honestly tell me that you don't sense any emotion in it, then I just don't know what to say.
 
Well, thanks Metalhead and Lpdeluxe for so neatly camping out in both corners of the debate...

Personally, I'd LOVE to attribute it to "feel players are just jealous" and "talking about how important 'feel' is is just an excuse for not practicing," but it's obviously not that simple. I've basically got at least one foot in the "shred" camp, but all the same I totally agree that there's something to all this talk about "feel."

At the same time, again as a player with one foot in the shred camp and another sort of out in the Gilmour/SRV/Jimi land of things, comments like LPdeluxes just piss me off. Just because a guitarist is technically accomplished doesn't mean he can't play with feel, yet so many guys who make posts like that on guitar boards or slightly-less-argumentative comments like that in the real word just automatically close down their ears when they hear someone play a faster run and think, "oh no, this guy's a 'shredder,' he's obviously a machine with no soul!" That's completely nonsensical. How much "feeling" you put into a solo is completely unrelated to how fast you're playing notes - I've heard my share of machine-like closet shredders, but I've also seen and heard some incredibly heartfelt, emotionally moving guitar performances that just happen to rely on blazing technique, and I've also seen my share of guys playing "feel" blues lick solos where it's pretty damned obvious that they're playing a bunch of memorized licks, and making grimaces so we think they're playing with "feel." They're not - it's a paint-by-numbers approach to soloing, and it has nothing to do with how fast (or, in this case, slow) they're playing.

"Feeling" and "technique" aren't two sides of the same spectrum - they're totally unrelated. A blistering alternate picked run can add a sense of tension and emotion to a song just as much as a long edge-of-feedback sustained note - the guys who've impressed me the most are the ones who can do both. They're just two different textures or colors in your pallate, and if you're trying to take the listener to a certain place or paint a picture with a lead break, then obviously it's stupid to limit yourself to just one.

I'm not sure why you have fewer "shred" players bagging on guys playing slow, feel-y solos. They're certainly out there, though they're much rarer. The optimistic part of me would like to attribute it to the fact that there comes a certain maturity with the sort of dedication to ones' craft that's required to build up shred-worthy technique, but that's probably a load of bull. And I don't know if "jealousy" is necessarily fair, either - maybe it's something as simple as a guitarist is presented with a staggeringly impressive technical performance, and then immediately needs to justify it to themselves why they don't want to spend the time learning how to do that. Who knows - either way, shred guys are certainly lightning rods for criticism. :p

I think it's worth recalling a conversation I once had with a guitar instructor I studied under in college. He was a hell of a player, but was more of the blues, jazz, and acoustic school, while at the time I made no secret of the fact I was an inspiring shredder (the picture's a little more clouded today, but whatever). We were talking about Joe Satriani's then-new album, "Engines of Creation," and in particular his solo on "Until We Say Goodbye," which to this day is still one of my favorite lead breaks. His comment, and I'm paraphrasing, was something that I found very interesting and has stuck with me ever since: "A lot of guitarists rave about guys like B.B. King and Carlos Santana for hitting "that perfect note" and just holding it. That's definitely cool, but with those guys, that's all they can do. With someone like Joe Satriani, he can do that too, but when you hear him do that it 'means' something a little different because with him you know it's a choice."

It's also worth pointing out, in a completely different direction, that the REALLY over the top stuff (think Rusty Cooley) exists for a totally different reason than, say, Jeff Beck, or even Satriani. Technique taken that far is just FUN. You don't listen to it for his subtle, tasteful melodicism - you listen to it because, holy shit, look at all the crazy things that guy can do to a guitar. I'd never play a Rusty Cooley album for a nom musician, whereas something like Satriani's "The Extremist" or Buckethead's "Colma" or Niel Zaza's "Staring At the Sun" are things that I have played in the past for a lot of my non-guitarist friends, and they've loved them. So, the question then becomes, for the truly over the top stuff, who's got it worst? The shred guys who appreciate a good technical display for what it is, no more, or the 'feel" guys who take themselves so seriously that they can't appreciate the humor and the element of fun that comes with something that patently absurd?

EDIT - and here's the one that blows my mind the most. Again, take Rusty Cooley. Go out and youtube some of his Chops from Hell lessons if they're on youtube, or if not maybe his "Betcha Can't Play This" lesson. You'll find all those "feel" players out in droves lambasting his playing for being "all technique, no feel," and somehow missing the point that what they're watching is a lesson recorded entirely to display and teach technique. How is that even possible? :p

Beautifully said.
 
e?

Take a solo like Steve Vai's "For the Love of God," for example. To me, that solo is dripping with emotion. I honestly don't see how someone can argue with that. It's got some very fast playing, but it also has lots of melody, and all of it is played as if his life depended on it, IMO. It's triumphant, sad, tragic, sweeping, pointed, and incredibly cathartic sounding to me.

If you don't know that song, I'd ask you go listen to it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1fLW-DS8Q

Just listen to it, because the video is pretty cheesy, and if you can honestly tell me that you don't sense any emotion in it, then I just don't know what to say.
Great playing there for sure ....... I'm gonna have to say that doesn't strike me as a 'shred' solo at all and is only called 'shred' because that's what Vai is known for ...... and that goes back to what I said about labeling players as one or the other. Out of 5 minutes there's a minute of shred type licks and the rest is pretty lovely 'feel' type playing.
The labels are meaningless when you look at good players.
 
Great playing there for sure ....... I'm gonna have to say that doesn't strike me as a 'shred' solo at all and is only called 'shred' because that's what Vai is known for ...... and that goes back to what I said about labeling players as one or the other. Out of 5 minutes there's a minute of shred type licks and the rest is pretty lovely 'feel' type playing.
The labels are meaningless when you look at good players.

I agree about it not being a shred solo at all, but I think most of the "feel" players would take one look at him and his guitar and automatically label him as a shredder. That's why I told LP Deluxe to not watch the video. I want people to just listen to the solo and then see if they can tell me there's no emotion in it.

Drew brought up another great point about the fact that a lot of the super-shred stuff isn't supposed to be heart-wrenching and dripping with emotion. It's about having fun.

And there are no rules that say music has to be incredibly heartfelt and dripping with emotion all the time. Music can be fun and light-hearted too.

You hit it right on the head when you said "The labels are meaningless when you look at good players."

One such player that comes to mind was Chet Atkins. He was just an amazing all around guitar player---incredibly musical. But even he would shred every once in a while! Granted, he did it with a clean tone and a Gretsch, but he did it more because it was fun --- not because it was serving some deep emotional need within the song!
 
I say that ANY player that rags on a good player of a different style is, at best, close minded musically and not that great a player himself.

The problem with that statement is how do you define what a "good" player is? Music is art and there is no good or bad only personal opinions. It has nothing to do with being close minded or a persons musical ability. It's called being an individual. As the old saying goes "Everyone's A Critic".
 
At the same time...as a player with one foot in the shred camp and another sort of out in the Gilmour/SRV/Jimi land of things, comments like LPdeluxes just piss me off. Just because a guitarist is technically accomplished doesn't mean he can't play with feel, yet so many guys who make posts like that on guitar boards or slightly-less-argumentative comments like that in the real word just automatically close down their ears when they hear someone play a faster run and think, "oh no, this guy's a 'shredder,' he's obviously a machine with no soul!"

That's why I stay out of the debate, most of the time: I have strong feelings about music, and I've never listened to a shredder (or seen a video of one) without thinking, "OK, when does he start to PLAY something?" This goes back to the amazing duets of Speedy West and Jimmy Bryant: it seems like when I listen to it, I'm hearing patterns being played over and over to no purpose. I keep waiting for something musical to happen.

You've articulated your position well, but I don't feel that way. It's not something we can profitably debate, because we're looking at the world through different filters.

And as to the comment that music IS "operating a machine" that's a silly quibble. Music is not PRIMARILY about operating a machine. Period. Or do you think Formula One racing is about "pushing the pedals and turning the wheel at the right time?"

I don't have anything to add: I've stated how I feel about it, and some of you have rebutted. Let the debate continue without me -- although I'll follow, from the wings.
 
Great playing there for sure ....... I'm gonna have to say that doesn't strike me as a 'shred' solo at all and is only called 'shred' because that's what Vai is known for ...... and that goes back to what I said about labeling players as one or the other. Out of 5 minutes there's a minute of shred type licks and the rest is pretty lovely 'feel' type playing.
The labels are meaningless when you look at good players.

Even that is debatable - a lot of that solo is pretty staggeringly technical even when it doesn't sound it. That ascending arpeggio/slide sequence from around 3:56 is quite a bit more technical than it sounds, even before 4:09 when it sounds like he's really speeding up and showing off a bit. But, even then, the technique always serves the music - that picked run right before he returns to the main melody is both blisteringly fast but also is incredibly emotionally intense the way it pretty much explodes into that high screaming note at the end. Still, your conclusion is spot on. :D
 
People that can't get into fast and exciting guitar playing are like people who only watch boring Lifetime Channel dramas and refuse to watch The Terminator.

I like to watch a little bit of everything.
 
You've articulated your position well, but I don't feel that way. It's not something we can profitably debate, because we're looking at the world through different filters.

...which I'm cool with. :) Listen to the stuff you enjoy, and I'll do the same, and I suspect we'll even have a fair amount of overlap. I just found this:

I think the good stuff goes right over the heads of the shredders. It's like a guy who's addicted to Playboy Magazine but doesn't have a clue about how to establish a relationship.

...a bit needlessly offensive since it implicitly equates playing fast to having no taste, and I don't think that's either far or true at ALL.

EDIT - of course, this:

People that can't get into fast and exciting guitar playing are like people who only watch boring Lifetime Channel dramas and refuse to watch The Terminator.

...is no better, but that might be metalhead's point. ;)
 
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