should i quit?

[mshilarious]

I have plenty of crappy Tascam 424 recordings if y'all need to hear 'em

I have good Tascam recordings too. The difference is I was recording somebody else I also have good recordings made on my HD24. I don't record myself on the HD24, or I would have bad digital recordings too

There can be a different sound to analog tape vs. digital, SM58 vs. Beta 87, etc. We rant and rave about 'em here, but to a newbie's untrained ear, they are tiny tiny tiny small differences.

Back to your original question: should you quit? Do you enjoy this process of troubleshooting? If not, then yes, quit, because audio engineering is basically a big long drawn out process of troubleshooting. Get somebody else to record your music, and get on with it. You haven't lost anything at this point because you still have your mic for live, and it's very nice for that.

If you've like to keep at it, carry on.

OK, your clip. Sonically, it sounds fine, good beginner effort, definitely nothing wrong with your gear.

Pitchwise, you are out of tune, which you know. The question is why are you out of tune? You don't feel that you are out of tune performing live, or when recording to tape. I would suspect that something is very different about your monitoring setup while recording to your PC that keeps you from hearing yourself, or hearing the backing track, or getting in your groove, whatever. Think about that and see what you come up with.

 

[cpc]

i said i'd try to get a normal copy of me singing somehow to email to you, but thats going to be kind of hard since i'd have to convert it to digital...unless i can do it somewhere else that works besides my computer.

i dont see how a picture of my m-audio mobile pre going into my computer could really help though. i could do that too though tomorrow sometime when i can get my digital camera.


i believe my stock card is right in the motherboard, it's not removable that i can tell. i do have it disabled in my computers system device manager or whatever...but i was wondering if this somehow could be interfering with my mobile pre?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

What I had in mind with respect to photos was to show exctaly what you're connecting together and how - the wires, etc... including the back of your soundcard (not the inside of your computer...)

It could be as simple as you using the mic input on your soundcard instead of the line-input..... that would definitely cause some major coloration....

 

[cpc]

OK, your clip. Sonically, it sounds fine, good beginner effort, definitely nothing wrong with your gear.

Pitchwise, you are out of tune, which you know. The question is why are you out of tune? You don't feel that you are out of tune performing live, or when recording to tape. I would suspect that something is very different about your monitoring setup while recording to your PC that keeps you from hearing yourself, or hearing the backing track, or getting in your groove, whatever. Think about that and see what you come up with.

true, i have already thought of that as well. i do tend to sing worse in general when i do computer recording. i figure this is just on part with not being use to computer recording and i'll improve when i get more comfortable with it and such. i use 15 dollar sony behind the back headphones with reasonable volume as i listen to the song and sing.

BUT, this is not the main problem still...regardless of the worse singing, i tend to get the vocals that dont sound serious and have that effect tthat seems to be added in the process of digital recording somehow that i've been talking about. like i said...i've even converted my good recordings from tape to my computer, and my computer has made them sound worse.

 

[cpc]

What I had in mind with respect to photos was to show exctaly what you're connecting together and how - the wires, etc... including the back of your soundcard (not the inside of your computer...)

It could be as simple as you using the mic input on your soundcard instead of the line-input..... that would definitely cause some major coloration....

the m-audio mobile pre has direct xlr inputs that i plug into. it's an external usb soundcard

 

[mshilarious]

i've even converted my good recordings from tape to my computer, and my computer has made them sound worse.

I agree with Bear here . . . you're gonna have to post one of those so we can hear it.

How do you monitor your recordings on PC? On tape?

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

Digital by its nature doesn't mangle your sound. Argueably its MORE accurate than a cassette recorder and many reel to reel machines. CHEAP digital (convertors, low bit and sample rates) do sound obviously off, but a half-decent 24 bit/44.1kHz system isn't going to negatively affect your sound in and of itself.

Cassette tape will not capture and reproduce the same signal you put into it. It doesn't have the ability to capture the full range the way your modest digital system does and tends to compress the signal a bit. Noise redux also has an effect on the sound. Some people *REALLY* like these aspects of cassette recording. If you want to get the same kind of sound of sound with a digital system you have to create it.

That has been the "problem" with digital since (almost) the beginning- its brutally honest about what you're feeding it. The benefit is that you have more control over your recording once you learn how to do it. The downside being that if you don't know how to do it... it seems like digital is screwing up your sound.

It seems obvious. A budget cassette sounds like you're used to and a budget digital system sounds like crap. Must be the fact that its digital, right? Not necessarily- budget cassette gear doesn't need clean preamps and completely cuts out the expense of convertors. Budget digital harshly reveals every bad component its got. And the sound of your room, and... Its a bit of a different skill to record digital. You have to set up the sound going into the computer the way you want it because its going to come out the same way it goes in.

Digital recording may not be for you. Some people just don't like it. Nothing wrong with that.

The suspense is killing me. I'm gonna go dig up some headphones and listen to that clip.

Take care
Chris

 

[cpc]

i posted an 8 second clip earlier, i dont think another clip of what my computer recordigns sound like will help without a normal sounding clip to compare it to. although i will do it and post something tomorrow if still requested because im desperate.


i've tried many different monitoring ways for comparison. ive recorded to tape a-capella, singing to a song kereoke style. in band practice we have a typical setup . me singing to a pa coming out of speakers.
i do feel less comfortable giving performances in computer recording..wearing headphones makes me feel restricted or the volumes im not use to may throw me off a bit or something. but, ive done a-capella and kareoke type singing to my computer and had the same effect.

 

[cpc]

chris- dont listen to it, you'll be scarred.

my soundcard is only capable of 16 bit sound


i dont think digital recording would make a casette recording sound worse though in of itself? if my vocals are already compressed and whatnot on casette, then shouldn't digital just reproducte this accurately? instead it makes it sound less serious and worse. sorry if you're tired of hearing those words its just the only thing i can think to describe it.

just pointing out a couple more things to maybe spark some ideas.

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

Too late!

Its not horrible- and this is the newbie forum not the mixing clinic so I'm not going jump on anyone... lord knows I have enough dodgey stuff I post because I'm excited about it for one reason or another.

My guess is that you are used to have more low end "OOMPH"' in your vocal tracks. Kinda like radio announcers have a deep BOOM to their voices.

So some questions- how far from the mic were you when you were recording? Did you do any mixing (EQ? Compression?) after you recorded it or is it just playing back straight?

Chris

 

[mshilarious]

Cassette tape will not capture and reproduce the same signal you put into it. It doesn't have the ability to capture the full range the way your modest digital system does and tends to compress the signal a bit. Noise redux also has an effect on the sound. Some people *REALLY* like these aspects of cassette recording. If you want to get the same kind of sound of sound with a digital system you have to create it.

A lot of good points here. Low-end cassette recorders, like my trusty ol' Tascam, have very little high-end response. Practically nothing above 8 kHz. Your new 87 does a much better job reproducing highs than the 58. The combination of moving to digital and a Beta 87 is going to change your sound, no question about it.

You like your sound live--PA systems also aren't known for faithful high-end reproduction, and monitor wedges certainly aren't.

You could try a big high cut in your vocals and see if you like that better. Here, I'll do it for you:

I still don't get why you don't like the transfers from tape to PC. Your PC should faithfully reproduce whatever sound you got out of the tape. That's why I ask if the monitoring is any different between the two.

 

[cpc]

on that particular recording i was probably 6 inches away from my mic give or take a couple inches every now and then. i have some compression on there and small reverb. and yes..im use to a fuller sound with more boom and deeper sounding in the same octave...but i have the same problem in all registers. it makes me sound like a comedic take or a parody of what it's suppose to sound like.

it probably wasnt the best example to post, but its the quickest thing i could find since i deleted most of my stuff i recorded with my new setup so far since i got frustrated and unsatisfied with it.

 

[cpc]

A lot of good points here. Low-end cassette recorders, like my trusty ol' Tascam, have very little high-end response. Practically nothing above 8 kHz. Your new 87 does a much better job reproducing highs than the 58. The combination of moving to digital and a Beta 87 is going to change your sound, no question about it.

You like your sound live--PA systems also aren't known for faithful high-end reproduction, and monitor wedges certainly aren't.

You could try a big high cut in your vocals and see if you like that better. Here, I'll do it for you:

I still don't get why you don't like the transfers from tape to PC. Your PC should faithfully reproduce whatever sound you got out of the tape. That's why I ask if the monitoring is any different between the two.

you make sense, and i dont want to disregard your opinions. but theres some things that just dont make sense to me to prove your thing wrong a bit. such as

1-i recorded my girlfriend talking and singing and it sounded different played back on my computer

2-i recorded my tape to computer and it sounded different played back.


and yes my monitoring is different for the two, i dont wear headphones when i record to tape,...but regardless it shoudlnt sound different when converted to my computer if it sounded good originally.

that clip you did still sounds goofy to me, a bit comedic and not serious compared to how i should sound. i appreciate you taking the time to try that for me though.

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

Do you sing 6" away when you're performing?

Try eating the mic like most live vocalists do and see if you get something more like you are used to.

With cardioid pattern mics the bass response increases *dramatically* as you get closer to it. Its called proximity effect. Give it a try and see if it helps at all. Back off when you breath and turn your head slightly to the side for "P" and "B" sounds. If you have a pop screen put that right up close to the mic then sing right up on it. Be careful not to bump the screen and mic together- mechanical noises aren't all that musical!

-Chris

 

[cpc]

"I still don't get why you don't like the transfers from tape to PC. Your PC should faithfully reproduce whatever sound you got out of the tape. That's why I ask if the monitoring is any different between the two."

do you see anything wrong with what i use to monitor when i record? i use 15 dollar sony behind the back headphones while playing back the track and singing to it. ive tried with my voice played back in my earphones in 1 ear, both ears, and no ears. any recomendations on this? i doubt this has anythign to do with how my vocals sound different then they should, but it has a better chance then many other things i've tried.

 

[mshilarious]

on that particular recording i was probably 6 inches away from my mic give or take a couple inches every now and then. i have some compression on there and small reverb. and yes..im use to a fuller sound with more boom and deeper sounding in the same octave...but i have the same problem in all registers. it makes me sound like a comedic take or a parody of what it's suppose to sound like.

OK, sit down for this one: you don't have a boomy, deep voice. You have proximity effect from your mic, which is a very nice thing to have. I bet you used to practically eat that 58 performing live, and you only back off a little on the 87. You're used to that sound.

Try this: move yourself off to the side of the mic by a few inches, still looking straight at it. Don't get any farther away though. Heck, even try getting closer (use a pop filter though).

I also think your voice sounds closed. Raise the mic up a bit and stretch your vocal cords out a bit. I ain't no vocal coach, so I can't be more specific, but in that track you were singing with your head voice, not your chest.

Those are the performance issues. We need to keep working the technical side.

and yes my monitoring is different for the two, i dont wear headphones when i record to tape,

Here we go--you gotta eliminate variables, and this is a huge variable. Take off the headphones then, or just have them on one ear. You are not used to tracking in cans--an important skill to work on, but for now, take 'em off. The bleed won't hurt much.

...but regardless it shoudlnt sound different when converted to my computer if it sounded good originally.

Yes. Still need to hear one of those though.

 

[cpc]

Do you sing 6" away when you're performing?

Try eating the mic like most live vocalists do and see if you get something more like you are used to.

With cardioid pattern mics the bass response increases *dramatically* as you get closer to it. Its called proximity effect. Give it a try and see if it helps at all. Back off when you breath and turn your head slightly to the side for "P" and "B" sounds. If you have a pop screen put that right up close to the mic then sing right up on it. Be careful not to bump the screen and mic together- mechanical noises aren't all that musical!

-Chris

you're right, i usually sing right on top of the mic "less than 1 inch" away when singing in my bands. but thats because its a rock band and our pa sucks i need to get the most volume as possible. i'll deffinitely try this though, i was told for recording you should record at least 3-6 inches away or so i never even thought of moving in realy close in fear of the pops and such.

 

[mshilarious]

you're right, i usually sing right on top of the mic "less than 1 inch" away when singing in my bands. but thats because its a rock band and our pa sucks i need to get the most volume as possible. i'll deffinitely try this though, i was told for recording you should record at least 3-6 inches away or so i never even thought of moving in realy close in fear of the pops and such.

That's true, usually for recording you don't eat mics, because usually one is seeking a more natural tone. You want your tone though, and that involves proximity.

Have a look at this:

 

[cpc]

i do have a more boomy bassy voice if i want to, i had a couple vocal lessons from a teacher before i decided i didnt want to continue with it . (its also very expensive ) he said i was a baritone but had up to a 5 octave range dipping into the bassy range and up high in the falsetto.

and i thought i was using my chest voice on that particular clip

 

[mshilarious]

i do have a more boomy bassy voice if i want to, i had a couple vocal lessons from a teacher before i decided i didnt want to continue with it . (its also very expensive )

and i thought i was using my chest voice on that particular clip

Not on the bad notes

I can hear where you got self-conscious; that's a function of not being used to hearing yourself in cans. You hit a note, it sounds off, voice closes up and goes straight to head.

Practice makes perfect