Should I Pay Kris Kristofferson?

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mikey_45

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Okay, it's happened. Have a song I'm very proud of, based on getting dumped by a lovely lady (actually, am very attached to a lovelier lady, so, in retrospect, she did me a favor, but I digress....). Its URL is as follows:



My problem is that one person (who shall remain nameless, but his initials are Bruce at Blue Bear Sound :-) ) said that it sounds a lot like "Help Me Make it Through the Night" by Kris Kristofferson, which can be found at:

http://backseatmemories6.tripod.com/helpmemakeitthroughthenight.html

Now, I think the musical ideas are different, and that I wasn't influenced by Kris's song - the progression is different, and the words are completely different. But, I am pretty close to this song, having spent a year recording and mixing it, so I'm willing to take advice. Does it sound to you like a derivative work, or is it clearly an original? My $80 mechanical royalty fee is in your hands.....

Mike Norman
 
I would think it's up to you -

But I couldn't say, because I can't play your song!

Winamp, Cool Edit, and the mp3 player from my CD burning software all can't read it! The programs either crash (Cool Edit) or give garbled weirdness (Winamp and Nero wave editor!)
 
Shoot, have seen this problem with Netscape, and reported it to the Web Host. You aren't by any chance running Netscape are you? If so, can you try again in IE, if you have it? I apologize, am trying to get the host to fix this.
 
Does Kristoffersons song crash in Netscape?

If not, you should be in the clear... ;)

good luck /Tommy

p.s. Never mind if the song is similar. You know that you wrote it. If it becomes big enough to get you sued, that's nice problems for you. Don't worry about it, this kinda stuff will happen to anyone productive sooner or later. A couple of percent of a million are better than zero percent of nothing... go for it. If you want more in-depth advice, I suggest you email Ray Parker Jr, since George Harrison is unavailable.
 
mikey_45
Yep, the verse is Help Me Make It Through the Night, no question. Nice chorus. I'd suggest trying some other chord progessions, i.e. going backwards (CGFC) or passing chords to distance it from Kris' tune.
 
Wow, yeah. The verse is *really* close. I don't know about the legal issues, but my eyes popped when I heard these two tunes together.

This is kinda scary. I wonder how many of my tunes have already been written by other people that I've never heard of?

Chris
 
I haven't heard the clips yet and thought I'd pass comment first. generally speaking we all play/compose what sounds familiar/correct. Certain chords fit together smoothly and melodies sound pleasing (because you've heard it before), it's the earss way of telling you it's right/it works (I'm not reffering to the songs in question here).

I find often that when I'm writing something that sounds good I usually think "hold on a minute"; change the tempo and a touch of the rhythm and yes it's........(the beatles, dylan, neil young etc). This tends to happen in the early stages of writing and I will disregard the idea as I don't want to go down that avenue.

However if I write something (the bulk of a song-you have got the finished article by the sound of it) and then later think it sounds like something I've heard before or am told that it sounds like some song already written I don't not play it. If you weren't aware of what you were doing you should keep it regardless; it is your work (and by the sounds of it you've put a lot of time into it).

Legally I think what it somes down to is the relativety between the harmonic structure (chords) and melody (and also lyrics if that's and issue).

I'll give them a listen later and get back to you on it.
 
The verse is VERY close to Help Me Make It Through The Night. The rest is completly different. It'll only be an issue if you start generating major capital out of it. It bit George Harrison on the ass with My Sweat Lord though.
 
It sure is close, Mikey.
Real close.
As was mentioned, I'd change it around a bit.
After listening to both, I honestly like yours better.
The chorus really punches the song. Your voice is nice too.
I like the acoustic work better also.

I've done the same thing a few times. I find it really difficult to change the melody and chords of a song after I make one. I have six songs that are from memory of other songs that I inadvertently copied.
Ya ain't alone.
 
Yeah; I just heard the two. It's a shame. I firmly belive that once as song is writen how it was meant, changing it doesn't really work. You must have been 'gutted' to say the least when you heard that song.

It's a close one to call and maybe you should seek proffesional advice if it means that much to you.
 
When I run into this problem, I sometimes try to substitute relative minors where appropriate for major chords or vice versa.
as (C to Am, D to Bm, E to C#m, F to Dm, G to Em, A to F#m...etc.)
In a lot of cases you can do this and keep the same 'feel' while giving it enough of a change to depart from something it sounds like.
 
Thanks for all the words of advice. The problem is, I don't really construct my songs, I kind of discover them...they take on a life of their own. Changing it to any major degree would feel (to exaggerate a little) like performing plastic surgery on one's baby to make it look less like a neighbor's.

I still have a strong assertion that this is not a derivative work. Beyond the first 7 notes, there are significant differences in the melody. Wish I knew Kris personally to discuss it with him.

Krystof01, will take your advice and seek a professional opinion.

badgas, thanks for the compliment.

Track Rat, I think you've discovered an idea for a new song - My Sweat Lord....lol
 
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Sure your songs are your children. You're the creator. You giveth them life, and you can taketh away. Editing and rewriting is usually considered a necessity (btw, where's the spell check in this bbs?) when dealing with most any intellectual property.

Or another otption is to be like Woody Guthrie was and get material from your own past work when you hit a slow spot. Can't think of a melody? Heck, he'd take a whole song of his.
 
i wonder

I wonder what the chances are of actually contacting Kris are? Although one angle would be to try to get permission, if you tried to contact him through ordinary channels his lawyer would reply to you and Kris would never even know it happened, I bet.


-Shaz
 
Never Pay Kristofferson!!!

That double crossin scoundrel owz me!! He's nuthin but troubul I tell ya!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'll get u KRIS u scallywag!!!
 
Unless the song actually makes attention getting revenues, of course, all this is moot. It is said that the Harrison/Chiffons decision was somewhat of a fluke - hard to believe that the late George actually encroached on the Chiffons revenue for their song. And there are LOTS of examples of similar sounding songs out there - sit in a blues club for a while...There are only 12 unique notes, you're bound to hear some similar sounding arrangements sooner or later.

By the way, for the uninitiated, I've done some research into mechanical royalties. Statutory rates only apply if the words and music of the copyright holder remain intact. Derivative works (i.e., you take someone's song and change the words and/or music) are not covered - the owner can charge whatever they like, or deny you permission to publish your work. Wonder how Weird Al Yankovic ever made a living.....

Guess I am rambling. For the record, I did not take KK's song and remake it, though I think he is one of the greatest songwriters who ever lived. Thanks all for the learning exercise.

There are some other good songs on the CD at the same web site, by the way (in my humble opinion)...
 
Copyright

Dear all,
If you write a song for 'your own pleasure' that's fine. No need to worry.
If you write for 'commercial gain' then things are different.

If you wish to make this song commercially available contact Kris K's publishers - they'll be on the net - ask them if they have any probs with your tune, lyrics and arrangement.
If not - away you go.
If yes - scrap the whole song - or you're simply a K.K. soundalike!

It seems irksome at times, but if you ever do write something big, then you'll welcome the copyright laws - they do protect the (often lonely and 'small') writer(s) from the mega recording Co's who will cash-in on any plastic selling song.
Where can I 'hear' all of your music guys? Is there a 'download' page or something?
rhs2000
 
What you are saying is absolutely true, rhs2000, if the work is a derivative one. It's not that simple. In this case, I don't believe the work is derivative - asking for permission concedes that issue a priori, and I'll have professional direction before I do that (my first professional response, btw, was not to do that).

And I do appreciate the copyright laws, and ownership of intellectual property, believe me. My work is registered as well.

The rest of the work that I have made available on the web is on the same site as this song - http://www.rmnorman.com

Mike
 
Have taken the song link off my web site until I decide what to do. Have had a couple of requests to put some more songs from the CD up there, so I'll do that tonight. I appreciate the sounding board this thread, and this forum have provided (however painful...).

Don't ever say you're finished with a project.......
 
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