should I buy a power conditioner?

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neil55

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hello,

I've just done a lot of reading through old threads about power conditioners and I think it is what I need to solve a problem I'm having. Here's my setup:

On one end of the room, I have a guitar amp and a boomerang (a stompbox looper) plugged into a power strip and then into the wall. One the other end, I have a 14 channel mackie mixer and a computer plugged into power strips and outlets. I'm not sure if the amp+rang and mixer+computer are all on the same circuit or not.

Anyway, I have the mixer and the computer wired together so the computer can both record from the mixer and playback to the mixer. What I'm trying to do is hook the boomerang aux sends into the mixer so I can run any track on the mixer through the boomerang.

It works when I plug it all in, but there's a huge annoying buzz that I can't get rid of. It seems that if I completely detach the computer from the mixer, the buzzing stops. Or if I leave the computer attached to the mixer and detach the boomerang, the buzzing stops. But with both the computer and the boomerang plugged in, there's so much extra noise.

Is a power conditioner what I need here? For example, the Furman PL8II (http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--FURPL8II). Will using a power conditioner on my mixer and computer get rid of this annoying noise? Do you guys have any recommendations for differnet power conditioners? I'm really not looking to spend more than $130 on this. Thanks for any help.
 
Try to power everything off of the same circuit before trying to eliminate hum with after market products... sounds like there's a difference in potential between your two power sources, and you've got some floating voltage on your ground/neutral...

Fix it at the source rather than try to mask the symptoms...
 
MOFO,

thanks for the reply. What exactly do you mean... do you think I have two different circuits and the computer being on one circuit and the boomerang being on the other circuit is causing a problem?

As for testing to find the problem, I've done some pretty extensive testing. If I have the boomerang plugged into the mixer and I keep all the wires from the computer unplugged from it, no hum, boomerang works fine. However once I plug the computer wires back in (or even just let the tip of one of the wires come in contact with the mixer), the hum appears. However, the computer doesn't make any hum at the mixer unless the boomerang is plugged in to the mixer at the same time.

I'm thinking plugging this HUMX device into the power strip that has the computer on it would solve this problem. Any opinions?
 
neil55 said:
... do you think I have two different circuits and the computer being on one circuit and the boomerang being on the other circuit is causing a problem?
Click to expand...
Exactly... try plugging the boomerang, the computer, and the mixer into the same outlet. Sounds like the computer and mixer share a circuit, and the boomerang is the odd man out...

If you've go a Volt Ohm Meter you can check voltage at the outlet. Narrow slot to wide slot should read a little under 120 peak VAC (Volts AC). Narrow slot to ground: 120 peak VAC. Wide slot to Ground: 0 VAC (Usually some stray voltage).

You can also measure the same between the ground of the two different outlets... this should be 0 VAC also, anything significantly higher indicates a problem. If both outlets are on the same circuit this will be the same conductor and should read 0 VAC (no stray voltage what-so-ever), With different circuits, one can have a better path to ground, and any stray voltage will take the easiest path...
 
hmmm..nope.

Well I plugged everything into the same circuit... computer, mixer, boomerang, and guitar amp. Still getting the buzz.

One interesting thing to note is that the buzz is coming out of my guitar amp. It doesn't seem to be coming out of the mixer's audio at all. I have a PODXT plugged into an Atomic Reactor. The boomerang is connected through the efffects loop.

It looks like I might have to buy that hum filter and either plug it in to my atomic or the mixer. Any other suggestions on how to get rid of this nasty hum?
 
Polarity switch on the Guitar Amp?... does the Amp Hum with no instrument plugged in?

What is your signal chain... you keep adding more on each post :o
 
Have you tried lifting the ground on the amp?
 
SonicAlbert,

No, I haven't. How does one go about lifting the ground? I have the power cable of the amp plugged into a little PlanetWaves surge protector then into a power strip and then an extension cord into the wall.

Mofo,

Sorry to make this confusing. I'm not sure about the polarity switch on the amp, I can check when I get home tonight. The signal chain is:

Guitar --> boss wah --> tube screamer --> atomic

the atomic then feeds the input into the PODxt. Then the input is feeded through the effect send/return into the boomerang.

HOWEVER, the same hum occurs regardless if the guitar is plugged in or not. In fact, the same hum occurs even if I completely remove the PODXT from the atomic and have nothing plugged into it except for the boomerang through the effect send/return. So I'm pretty sure the gutiar and the pedals and the POD have nothing to do with this.
 
I realize this is a long shot, But, try plugging your amp into the outlet without the extension cord, OR the Power Strip. . . It actually might be the power cord, or the power strip giving that hum . . . Like I said its a long shot. but, at least its an easy try :cool:
 
Buy the PL8-II and plug all your recording/guitar/etc gear into it. Then buy an APC (battery backup, usually like $30-40 at walmart) and plug the computer/moniters/soundcards/etc. into it. Then throw away all your crappy cables and make sure you are only using good high quality shielded cables. I know you can't afford monster's or zaolla's, but you should get the better quality cables from your local music store. Usually ones with a lifetime warranty will do you well. (Personally I have had bad experiances with whirlwind's cheaper cables so stay away from them) I know this will cost you more than $130, but it is really the only way to assure that you will solve your problem for good, and this is the best habit to get into as far as keeping everything in your studio up and running smoothly with less problems. Hope this helps.

Techy stuff:
The PL8-II has lift (linear filtering technology, which helps with electrical noise in laymans terms) as well as SMP+ (series mode protection) and E.V.S. (extreme voltage shutdown) Which basically means that it cleans the power coming into all your gear (because normal home power is very dirty and full of noise, spikes, ground contamination, and surges) and keeps a steady voltage to all your gear so it performs to the best of it's ability. The EVS means that literally if a transformer was to explode outside of your house all your gear would be fine (the pl-8 might be fried though lol) It shuts all your gear down when it senses an overvoltage coming into the line. Which would you rather buy $130 power conditioner? or ALL NEW GEAR?
 
neil55 said:
Hmm... I called up Zzounds and asked for their opinion. The guy recommended the Ebtech HUMX Voltage Hum Filter (http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--EBTHUMX). This looks like it is what I need, and its a lot cheaper than the furman. Does anyone have any experience with this, or any opinion on the matter? Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

zzounds is a box store (a warehouse with some stock boys and a few receptionists) they would not be the best people to ask for technical advice. There is a definate reason that Furman is the biggest company out there, and there is also a definate reason why the ebtech is alot cheaper. Furman makes power conditioners for $50 also, doesn't mean they expect them to be much more than a glorified power strip. I have personally A/B'd the Furmans to the much MUCH MUCH higher priced Monster power conditioners and found that a Furman for $500 blew away a Monster for $2,000. You gotta stop and wonder why every big studio you have ever seen a photo of has Furman's in their racks and not anything else.
 
neil55 said:
MOFO,

thanks for the reply. What exactly do you mean... do you think I have two different circuits and the computer being on one circuit and the boomerang being on the other circuit is causing a problem?

As for testing to find the problem, I've done some pretty extensive testing. If I have the boomerang plugged into the mixer and I keep all the wires from the computer unplugged from it, no hum, boomerang works fine. However once I plug the computer wires back in (or even just let the tip of one of the wires come in contact with the mixer), the hum appears. However, the computer doesn't make any hum at the mixer unless the boomerang is plugged in to the mixer at the same time.

I'm thinking plugging this HUMX device into the power strip that has the computer on it would solve this problem. Any opinions?
Click to expand...

I am pretty confident that the "hum-x" will not "fix" your problem. Read my other reply at the bottom.
 
neil55 said:
SonicAlbert,

No, I haven't. How does one go about lifting the ground? I have the power cable of the amp plugged into a little PlanetWaves surge protector then into a power strip and then an extension cord into the wall.

Mofo,

Sorry to make this confusing. I'm not sure about the polarity switch on the amp, I can check when I get home tonight. The signal chain is:

Guitar --> boss wah --> tube screamer --> atomic

the atomic then feeds the input into the PODxt. Then the input is feeded through the effect send/return into the boomerang.

HOWEVER, the same hum occurs regardless if the guitar is plugged in or not. In fact, the same hum occurs even if I completely remove the PODXT from the atomic and have nothing plugged into it except for the boomerang through the effect send/return. So I'm pretty sure the gutiar and the pedals and the POD have nothing to do with this.
Click to expand...

Definately sounds like a ground problem, which would be fixed with the furman and an APC and a cable renew. But try this: unplug ALL power supplies from all your effects, then put batteries in them all. If the hum goes away then it is what's called a "ground loop" which is a result of the fact that effects pedal power supplies are usually ungrounded, two prong wall warts, and the amp is a 3 prong grounded power cable. I still think it would all be taken care of like I said.
 
Hollowdan,

Wow, thanks for all the information. Unfortunately last week I ordered the ebtech humx on the condition that zzounds has the 30 day return policy. I should be receiving it today or tomorrow, so I'll try it out in a few different plugs. If it kills the noise, we'll consider it a miracle and I'll stop worrying about this.

If it doesn't solve the problem, which from your information it seems like it won't, it looks like I'll be buying that Furman power conditioner and an APC like you suggested.

In terms of the groundloop suggestion, the boomerang is in fact powered by a 2 prong wallwart, however it can't run on batteries so I can't test it out that way. And of course the atomic is a three prong.

And I'm definitely going to invest in a nice cord to connect the mixer and the boomerang. It's a stereo RCA --> 1/4" cord. The one that I have now was a cheaper one that I bought on zzounds. I'm definitely going to spring for a higher quality cable.

Now, here's my only question about the Furman/APC solution. I have a rather large room where all of this is setup, and the power is divided into two sections (two opposite ends of the room).

On one end of the room, I have an extension cord coming from an outlet which leads to two different power strips. One power strips powers a bass amp and a bass podxt (although those two have been powered off for all of these tests....they don't seem to add any noise to anything when powered on anyway). The second power strip has my atomic plugged into it, the boomerang, and a godlyke power-all (which powers the wah-wah and tubescreamer).

Now on the opposite end of the room, I have two power strips which power the computer, the LCD monitor, a laptop, a headphone amp, and the main monitoring speaker. The mixer is then plugged into a separate outlet which is halfway between the two main power sources.

What I'm getting at is, it wouldn't be too ideal to plug the recording and the guitar gear into the same furman. What do you think things would be like if I plugged the bass amp/bass pod/atomic/boomerang/godlyke into the furman and then plugged the computer/LCDmonitor/mixer/headphone amp/speaker into the APC?

I guess one option may be to just buy two furmans and have one at either side of the room. It's going to be a little costly, but I think it would be worth it if it's going to help kill all the noise, especially the other annoying static noise I get when the laptop is plugged in and not running on battery.

What do you think? Should I spring for a quality stereo RCA --> 1/4" cable and two furmans? Or with my room setup is only one furman necessary along with an APC? Thanks so much for your help.
 
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Before you buy anything else... power all of the equipment in the signal chain off of the same circuit...
 
MOFO,

Power everything off of the same circuit to see if it removes the hum? I've already tried that. I powered the atomic/boomerang/godlyke up on the same circuit as the computer/mixer/etc and the same hum still remained. So I don't think separate circuits is the issue...
 
are you sure your guitar is not picking up the magnetic field of the computer screen. Turn off the PC monitor screen.
 
No, it's not. The same hum goes through whether the monitor is on or off. Furthermore, the same hum goes through even when the guitar isn't even plugged in to the amp! So its definitely not a problem with the guitar picking up any noise.
 
It sounds to me like a ground loop, and a power conditioner will not fix it. Are you patching the signal with high Z cables? If so, the shield is completing the loop circuit and cannot be cut since it's also part of the signal path, so try lifting the amplifier ground with a ground lift block. Don't lift the whole power strip, but lift only the amp. If your connectivity is low Z, you can sever the shield in the connector(s) without having to lift the ground on the amp.
 
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